Fire Drayton

[tynimiller]

We've been swapping out ST Coordinators since 2006. Perhaps the problem really is one of personnel and not coaching. I remember reading an article years ago which maintained that Ted Thompson preferred to carry less dedicated special teams players on his rosters than typical and that the unit tends to be more of a dumping ground for offensive and defensive projects. I wouldnt be surprised if Gute applies the same approach as his mentor. If we want to see improved play from that unit we will need more Oren Burks and Ty Summers types on the roster.

BTW, I bet that half the posters calling for Draytons head wanted Burks cut last off season.

Not I. Burks is a very cheap and serviceable depth guy with athleticism to serve in games for snaps on Defense and offers ST play at a solid level. Now he isn't worth a costly second contract but is for sure one you don't cut till contract up.

 

[Mondio]

I have no doubt there is a talent issue at the bottom of the roster for rounding out special teams. I just look at the return men available. one is mentally not there and there is nobody else i've seen in a few seasons other than Irvin for a short while that even looked like a return man. We seem to find some gems to actually become O or D starters, but we need the guys like JJanis was and I don't see many of them right now.

 

[tynimiller]

I have no doubt there is a talent issue at the bottom of the roster for rounding out special teams. I just look at the return men available. one is mentally not there and there is nobody else i've seen in a few seasons other than Irvin for a short while that even looked like a return man. We seem to find some gems to actually become O or D starters, but we need the guys like JJanis was and I don't see many of them right now.

Ervin is a guy I and others have brought up, but I'm more concerned with our coverage units and kicking than returner personally. That said someone said Ervin was hurt I believe. ?

 

[Mondio]

Ervin is a guy I and others have brought up, but I'm more concerned with our coverage units and kicking than returner personally. That said someone said Ervin was hurt I believe. ?

me too, it's more than return man, that's just an easy one to see for me. The "what" everyone is doing in the coverages and returns is something I don't really pay attention to. But return men? you can see if they have it, or don't just the way they field things, set things up, burst thru a crease etc. I'm guessing there is a reason Swervin Ervin isn't on the roster, but our lack of a return man is glaring and evident with everyone they've put back there I think. Just a very obvious point our special teams are lacking the players, but not the only place it's lacking if you know what I mean. I'm sure the others are too, but I don't watch enough to know who or what is lacking.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

We've been swapping out ST Coordinators since 2006. Perhaps the problem really is one of personnel and not coaching. I remember reading an article years ago which maintained that Ted Thompson preferred to carry less dedicated special teams players on his rosters than typical and that the unit tends to be more of a dumping ground for offensive and defensive projects. I wouldnt be surprised if Gute applies the same approach as his mentor. If we want to see improved play from that unit we will need more Oren Burks and Ty Summers types on the roster.

BTW, I bet that half the posters calling for Draytons head wanted Burks cut last off season.

If that us the philosophy, Sunday night and all season for that matter, has proven it is a bad one. As far as all the other failed Special teams coaches, it isn't like Slocum, Zook and Mennega left Green Bay and proved just how good they were at coaching.

 

[gopkrs]

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I personally know Dray he is a good dude but I can say it’s more than just him on the problems on special teams..

Probably is a good guy because otherwise he would already be gone. It makes it tough but not a good reason to keep him. imo

 

[gopkrs]

Not I. Burks is a very cheap and serviceable depth guy with athleticism to serve in games for snaps on Defense and offers ST play at a solid level. Now he isn't worth a costly second contract but is for sure one you don't cut till contract up.

And he might get better. He's had more playing time this year.

 

[PikeBadger]

I know everyone/every fan of every team is on the 'fire X' person whenever a game, quarter or play goes bad, but has a team, with a winning record, ever just fired any coach during the season for performance based issues? The Lions fired their ST coach during December, but that was after he went rogue and called a play and didn't tell anyone.

Disagree. Only the crazy knee jerk fans behave that way. There are too many of those without a doubt in my mind.

 

[easyk83]

If that us the philosophy, Sunday night and all season for that matter, has proven it is a bad one. As far as all the other failed Special teams coaches, it isn't like Slocum, Zook and Mennega left Green Bay and proved just how good they were at coaching.

I mean that philosophy won a super bowl and got us to multiple nfcg's.

Successful project players are often the difference between a title run and being an also ran.

 

[easyk83]

I have no doubt there is a talent issue at the bottom of the roster for rounding out special teams. I just look at the return men available. one is mentally not there and there is nobody else i've seen in a few seasons other than Irvin for a short while that even looked like a return man. We seem to find some gems to actually become O or D starters, but we need the guys like JJanis was and I don't see many of them right now.

I think the idea is that any one of your projects or bottom of the depth chart players has a range of chance, on the low end, to turn into a starter or better still a very good one. So instead of working towards a dedicated stable of long term quality ST guys you keep more guys who project on O and D with the idea that increasing the teams chances of developing a Tramon Williams or Desmond Bishop is worth it.

When teams can take a a cast off or low round draft pick and turn them into a star it pays dividends in terms of cap space and draft capital.

If I gave anyone on here a choice between Oren Burks Ty Summers another quality ST player, how many fans on here and how many NFL execs would take those three over prime Tramon Williams?

 

[Mondio]

I think the idea is that any one of your projects or bottom of the depth chart players has a range of chance, on the low end, to turn into a starter or better still a very good one. So instead of working towards a dedicated stable of long term quality ST guys you keep more guys who project on O and D with the idea that increasing the teams chances of developing a Tramon Williams or Desmond Bishop is worth it.

When teams can take a a cast off or low round draft pick and turn them into a star it pays dividends in terms of cap space and draft capital.

If I gave anyone on here a choice between Oren Burks Ty Summers another quality ST player, how many fans on here and how many NFL execs would take those three over prime Tramon Williams?

I agree, I didn’t mean to imply you look for special teams guys and give them roster spots vs guys you’re developing.

You always look for guys that can play football.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I mean that philosophy won a super bowl and got us to multiple nfcg's.

You are right and working under a different philosophy might have won us more Superbowls and NFCCG wins.

 

[OldSchool101]

I’m also tired of using a TE sized players as our return guy experiment. Those guys need to have Olympic type speed.

I’ll give Janis a pass because he had incredible speed for a big guy. I’d rather have a 5 11” burner who runs a 4.3 X 40 and has exceptional hands. We’re making this much harder than it needs to be. Give me another Don Beebe

 

[swhitset]

I’m also tired of using a TE sized players as our return guy experiment. Those guys need to have Olympic type speed.

I’ll give Janis a pass because he had incredible speed for a big guy. I’d rather have a 5 11” burner who runs a 4.3 X 40 and has exceptional hands. We’re making this much harder than it needs to be. Give me another Don Beebe

Well Amari Rodgers is 5’9” and runs like a 4.4… not blazing fast but pretty fast. I’d just like him to be able to consistently catch the ball.

 

[OldSchool101]

Well Amari Rodgers is 5’9” and runs like a 4.4… not blazing fast but pretty fast. I’d just like him to be able to consistently catch the ball.

Yeah. They can run like Bo Jackson, yet if they can’t secure it it does zero good. Amaris recorded time was 4.51, just for the record. I read somewhere he ran an unofficial 4.44. But when it counted 4.51

Jakeem Grant in comparison ran an unofficial 4.10 ( recorded by a scout) but he a legit 4.25 type guy. Stokes type speed.

Tyler Ervin, by comparison, runs a 4.41.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

No amount of speed is going to help if:

A. A player can't field a ball cleanly.

B. A player makes bad decisions as to when and how to field the ball.

C. You have crap for blocking around said player.

Seems like every week for the last 8 or so games, everyone is trying to explain what went wrong on special teams. "Was it this player or that player or multiple players?" Well, the wheels fell off in week 14 and now people are still trying to explain it with "we need a guy like this or a guy like that." Again, I just think they need a new coach. Not a guy that spent 3 seasons learning under 2 failed Special Teams coaches. Trying to decide where to start in capturing the utter incompetence of the Packers’ special teams unit is about as easy as getting either of the Cuomo brothers to admit they did anything wrong. When just about every phase of special teams fails, you need to go right to the source and that is the coach.

I just find it hard to believe that MLF isn't backing down and is willing to risk losing a playoff game due to a known problem, one that can't get much worse, even with a new coach.

 

[easyk83]

You are right and working under a different philosophy might have won us more Superbowls and NFCCG wins.

Or we wouldnt have won any. I think there are three things to be expected in life and thats death taxes and the Packers firing another failed ST coordinator after any given season. If the Packers want a better result on the field in ST the team should look to maintain 2-3 more true ST specialists at any given time, pay for those players and slightly reduce their odds of developing defensive or offensive starters. The result will be better blocking, better return coverage and who knows maybe our return men will start to look better faster and more confident.

 

[pacmaniac]

Maybe the Packers can take some of the money from this year's stock offering and use it to hire a better ST coach.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Or we wouldnt have won any. I think there are three things to be expected in life and thats death taxes and the Packers firing another failed ST coordinator after any given season. If the Packers want a better result on the field in ST the team should look to maintain 2-3 more true ST specialists at any given time, pay for those players and slightly reduce their odds of developing defensive or offensive starters. The result will be better blocking, better return coverage and who knows maybe our return men will start to look better faster and more confident.

I have to disagree with you or as least this theory of "we won a SB and made it to NFCCG's a couple of times with bad Special Teams, so it shouldn't be a problem." While I do agree with you that our special teams might be better, with better players drafted specifically to fill special teams roles. However, I seriously doubt that all the teams in the top 10 when it comes to special teams, dedicate much in the way of draft picks to do what you are saying, yet they have decent special teams.

This whole notion of "why fix it, we are 10-3 and have had success in the past?" is like saying "why fix the defense, we did well in the past with a sub par defense." Anytime you can improve your team and in this case your special teams units, that has to be looked at as a positive.

If MLF won't fire Drayton, his other option might be to have starters play special teams. Might be a great idea in a must win game, where you throw everything at it, but I sure would hate to see someone like Davante Adams lost for the season while he was playing a gunner on punts.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Maybe the Packers can take some of the money from this year's stock offering and use it to hire a better ST coach.

I doubt it is money that is preventing them from hiring a better ST coach. I think MLF and the organization thought Drayton was the perfect coach to promote. Perhaps that seemed like a great idea to them, but so far, I would say they were wrong.

 

[Pkrjones]

Title says it all... https://packerswire.usatoday.com/20...easure-packers-have-nfls-worst-special-teams/

What good does it do to have a top-10 D, a top 15 offense led by a top-3 QB, and trot the worst ST unit in the NFL out there 5-10 times per game? Offense works hard to score & then within 10 seconds of kicking off that lead is neutralized? The D works hard to get off the field only to be placed right back out there, with their backs to the goal line because of a ST gaff? Many times the game hinges on field position and to admit failure with ST and lose that battle negates the strengths of the O & D.

Knee-jerk reaction? Fire ____? When a SB-caliber team is fielding the WORST ST unit that's more than a "little problem requiring tweaking"!!

 

[easyk83]

So the answer is we should run this team to be more like the Bears and their top ten ST unit.

 

[easyk83]

Here's another prediction, the Packers with their worst ST unit in the NFL will convincingly beat the Ravens with their NFL best ST unit and do so while missing multiple All Pros.

 

[Sanguine camper]

While Gute had turned over every rock to help the offense and defense overcome the avalanche of injuries. his inability to find a KR is contributing to the worst ST in the NFL. It has been obvious for a long time that Malik Turner and Amari Rodgers aren't getting the job done and need to be replaced ASAP. The Bears should've been blown out and the game was much closed because of the ST which can be credired for giving up between 13 and 20 points given the horrible srarting field position given to the Bears. In a closer game, especially come playoff time, ridiculous specual teams play will result in another wrecked season.

 

[easyk83]

I have to disagree with you or as least this theory of "we won a SB and made it to NFCCG's a couple of times with bad Special Teams, so it shouldn't be a problem." While I do agree with you that our special teams might be better, with better players drafted specifically to fill special teams roles. However, I seriously doubt that all the teams in the top 10 when it comes to special teams, dedicate much in the way of draft picks to do what you are saying, yet they have decent special teams.

This whole notion of "why fix it, we are 10-3 and have had success in the past?" is like saying "why fix the defense, we did well in the past with a sub par defense." Anytime you can improve your team and in this case your special teams units, that has to be looked at as a positive.

If MLF won't fire Drayton, his other option might be to have starters play special teams. Might be a great idea in a must win game, where you throw everything at it, but I sure would hate to see someone like Davante Adams lost for the season while he was playing a gunner on punts.

The point is that there's a team strategy at play which perhaps deemphasizes the unit and sort of treats it as a dumping ground with predictable results and that simply blaming the ST coach is missing the mark.

Should the team put more emphasis by doing more to retain good ST players build a consistent unit?

I'm not opposed, just pointing out that the team has been successful. Of course lets not forget the special teams F-up which could have sent the Packers to a Super Bowl versus Seattle.