Does an unusually high number of ACL Tears sugggest defective training and medical oversight

[El Guapo]

This suggests changes tehy have made are helping.

I'm sorry, but after reading this entire thread I am struck by the incredible amount of conclusions being drawn on a whim. Even the title of this thread is ludicrous as Pack-12 pointed out. We don't have an unusually high number of ACL tears. It also does not suggest "defective" training/medical oversight. There are so many factors that go into injuries, yet we seem to be on a witch hunt to determine if it's over-training, the turf, cleats, etc. They've said that it's been a cooler training camp than usual, so THAT could be a factor because they are less dehydrated. Honestly, we're a bunch of dogs chasing our tails here. We are not going to solve this problem on an internet forum. About the best that we can do is commiserate.

 

[AllouezPackerFan]

I'd like the think the Packers strength and conditioning staff and medical staff know more than we do.

 

[Luca]

Honestly, we're a bunch of dogs chasing our tails here.

If we are trying to blame the strength and conditioning staff and medical staff for one individual injury we are probably chasing our own tails here. Some injuries might be avoidable, but obviously not all of them. Since the sample size for ACL injuries for individual teams are very low, it's nearly impossible to draw any sensible conclusions form those figures.

However if we blame strength and conditioning staff and medical staff for the usual amount of muscle injuries, like two years ago, we are probably on to something. Fortunately the Packers have changed their methods. Obviously, this didn't diminish the injuries last year, but the number of muscle injuries did diminish! Unfortunately most of those injuries last year were unavoidable (there are no methods to prevent broken collarbones, broken thumbs, broken feet, broken legs, neck injuries and concussions)

Moreover, this also doesn't mean that we can't blame the league for the rising amount of ACL injuries. There have 61 ACL injuries last year. That is a lot! Something is causing this league wide rise in ACL injuries. Many of those ACL injuries are suffered during the first weeks of camp. So maybe some of those injuries are caused by a CBA that forces you to be game ready in just 15 days. Based on what experts told me, I think that the CBA should focus on extending recovery time after the practices, instead of limiting the duration of camp and limiting the total number of practices.

 

[E. Wolf]

I'm sorry, but after reading this entire thread I am struck by the incredible amount of conclusions being drawn on a whim. Even the title of this thread is ludicrous as Pack-12 pointed out. We don't have an unusually high number of ACL tears. It also does not suggest "defective" training/medical oversight. There are so many factors that go into injuries, yet we seem to be on a witch hunt to determine if it's over-training, the turf, cleats, etc. They've said that it's been a cooler training camp than usual, so THAT could be a factor because they are less dehydrated. Honestly, we're a bunch of dogs chasing our tails here. We are not going to solve this problem on an internet forum. About the best that we can do is commiserate.

Actually, in years past, we have had an unusually high number of injuries four out of the past five years. That's a statistical fact, and many of them have been ACL tears as well as muscle pulls and strains which definitely are attributable to strenght and conditioning.
Sorry buy four out of five years cannot be just a coincidence. In law it is what is called a "prima facie" case where there is a rebuttable presumption of negligence based on circumstances that do not normally arise in the absence of negligence. Four out of fives years (with 2011 being an abbreviated training camp because of the lockout) creates that presumption in my mind.

 

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

I know none of the old school guys will really be a fan but why not try more yoga? It seemed to work for the Seahawks last year. Tim Masthay, Randall Cobb, Tramon Williams, Clay Matthews and the man himself Aaron Rodgers already do it on there own.

http://fox6now.com/2014/08/03/its-a...s-players-are-realizing-the-benefits-of-yoga/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...-and-a-yoga-green-bay-mike-mccarthy/10383189/

Yoga is amazing.

 

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

I'm sorry, but after reading this entire thread I am struck by the incredible amount of conclusions being drawn on a whim. Even the title of this thread is ludicrous as Pack-12 pointed out. We don't have an unusually high number of ACL tears. It also does not suggest "defective" training/medical oversight. There are so many factors that go into injuries, yet we seem to be on a witch hunt to determine if it's over-training, the turf, cleats, etc. They've said that it's been a cooler training camp than usual, so THAT could be a factor because they are less dehydrated. Honestly, we're a bunch of dogs chasing our tails here. We are not going to solve this problem on an internet forum. About the best that we can do is commiserate.

I don't think anyone is under the allusion that we can "solve the problem" on this forum or that the discussion would make it's way with weight to someone of influence in the Packers Organization. Really this, and most of the threads of this nature are about, is for the posters to be able to glean a better understanding of the chosen topic and come to a consensus within the group.

Not really sure why you think title is suggestive when it is pretty sterile actually:
"Does an unusually high number of ACL Tears suggest defective training and medical oversight". That's a pretty well phrased question. The title itself is not suggesting that we have an unusually high number of these injuries; something more to this effect is what you could actually have fault with: 'Does the unusually high number of ACL Tears the Packers have struggled through the past 5 seasons with suggest defective training and medical oversight".

 

[El Guapo]

Enjoy your witch hunt boys

 

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

Enjoy your witch hunt boys

No one is going on one. hahaha. The only way that it makes sense for you to even think that's what is going on is that you've misinterpreted the scatterings of tongue-in-cheek comments as being sincere. You should reassess.

 

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

Do we actually suffer an unusually high number of ACL tears?

Do we have to in order to be able to pose the question?

 

[Pack-12]

Do we have to in order to be able to pose the question?

You can pose all of the questions you want but that doesn't mean that they have much relevance.

 

[Carl]

Actually, in years past, we have had an unusually high number of injuries four out of the past five years. That's a statistical fact, and many of them have been ACL tears as well as muscle pulls and strains which definitely are attributable to strenght and conditioning.
Sorry buy four out of five years cannot be just a coincidence. In law it is what is called a "prima facie" case where there is a rebuttable presumption of negligence based on circumstances that do not normally arise in the absence of negligence. Four out of fives years (with 2011 being an abbreviated training camp because of the lockout) creates that presumption in my mind.

Can't attribute all muscles strains and pulls to strength and conditioning. For example, it's not very well known how to prevent a hamstring strain from reoccurring. Also, to me it's a safe assumption that some players, such as Matthews, is in great shape as far as strength and conditioning.

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

Can't attribute all muscles strains and pulls to strength and conditioning. For example, it's not very well known how to prevent a hamstring strain from reoccurring. Also, to me it's a safe assumption that some players, such as Matthews, is in great shape as far as strength and conditioning.

CM3 is in great shape, but the unfortunate part about a hamstring is : once you tear it, and it reheals....that area that has rehealed is subseptable to be reinjured easily. Hamstrings can be career killers. They can make you lose a lot of explosiveness as well.

 

[JBlood]

Everybody, included the Packers, are frustrated by injuries. I trust the Packers are doing all they can to protect the team; and I think the monitoring program Catapult Sports offers will be an important part of it.

 

[E. Wolf]

Can't attribute all muscles strains and pulls to strength and conditioning. For example, it's not very well known how to prevent a hamstring strain from reoccurring. Also, to me it's a safe assumption that some players, such as Matthews, is in great shape as far as strength and conditioning.

That's true. But a consistenly high number of such injuries, which the Packers have suffered, is attributable to strength and conditioning.

 

[easyk83]

I'm sorry, but after reading this entire thread I am struck by the incredible amount of conclusions being drawn on a whim. Even the title of this thread is ludicrous as Pack-12 pointed out. We don't have an unusually high number of ACL tears. It also does not suggest "defective" training/medical oversight. There are so many factors that go into injuries, yet we seem to be on a witch hunt to determine if it's over-training, the turf, cleats, etc. They've said that it's been a cooler training camp than usual, so THAT could be a factor because they are less dehydrated. Honestly, we're a bunch of dogs chasing our tails here. We are not going to solve this problem on an internet forum. About the best that we can do is commiserate.

Xactly, we have one injury that happened under unknown circumstances and one that happened as a result of a collision. I'm not sure how the staff could have prevented Barclay's injury. Two instances is not enough to establish a trend or pattern.

 

[E. Wolf]

Xactly, we have one injury that happened under unknown circumstances and one that happened as a result of a collision. I'm not sure how the staff could have prevented Barclay's injury. Two instances is not enough to establish a trend or pattern.

It's not just two instances. It is four out of the five past years. Injuries are down this year so far however.

 

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

You can pose all of the questions you want but that doesn't mean that they have much relevance.

There is an "ignore thread" option. Troll.

 

[Chicocheese]

Im not exactly sure what you are asking... do I have any specific knowledge that fans are always looking for someone to blame?

I think we BOTH know that he wasn't asking if you have any "specific knowledge" about who to blame. He was CLEARLY asking if you had any specific knowledge about ACL tears and how they happen and what the factors are.

Who are we blaming for Rodgers' broken collarbone last year?

Seriously? Really?

A broken collar bone is one thing, as it doesn't happen too often and a broken bone simply cannot be attributed to too much or too little conditioning. Bad luck and a 300lb defensive lineman made that happen.

As far has tearing ACLs I DO believe, in someway, that conditioning has SOMETHING to do with it. It is either too little conditioning to too much. I read that Barclay "took a bad fall in practice" and tore his ACL. How often have you fell and tore a ligament? My guess is never to very, very rarely.

Lets use myself as an example here. I am an overweight guy, not "fat guy in a floaty chair from WALL-E" overweight, but overweight none the less. I know that due to my weight there is more stress put on my heart and joints. Therefore, I am more likely to suffer a heart attack and have bad knees and ankles in the future, if not arthritis.

Now then, as an athlete these guys build up their muscles and sometimes to the extreme with very little body fat. These muscles are now extremely taught, and as such so are the tendons and ligaments. It wouldn't take much to make one tear or rip, or at least not as much as it would take for one of US to tear our ACL. A guy like Barclay probably works out his legs to most as he needs to plant himself in place and/or push and keep the defense away from Lacy and Rodgers. So, his awkward fall in conjunction with his "over-conditioned" legs = ACL tear.

Just my $.02

 

[AllouezPackerFan]

I think we BOTH know that he wasn't asking if you have any "specific knowledge" about who to blame. He was CLEARLY asking if you had any specific knowledge about ACL tears and how they happen and what the factors are.




Seriously? Really?

A broken collar bone is one thing, as it doesn't happen too often and a broken bone simply cannot be attributed to too much or too little conditioning. Bad luck and a 300lb defensive lineman made that happen.

As far has tearing ACLs I DO believe, in someway, that conditioning has SOMETHING to do with it. It is either too little conditioning to too much. I read that Barclay "took a bad fall in practice" and tore his ACL. How often have you fell and tore a ligament? My guess is never to very, very rarely.

Lets use myself as an example here. I am an overweight guy, not "fat guy in a floaty chair from WALL-E" overweight, but overweight none the less. I know that due to my weight there is more stress put on my heart and joints. Therefore, I am more likely to suffer a heart attack and have bad knees and ankles in the future, if not arthritis.

Now then, as an athlete these guys build up their muscles and sometimes to the extreme with very little body fat. These muscles are now extremely taught, and as such so are the tendons and ligaments. It wouldn't take much to make one tear or rip, or at least not as much as it would take for one of US to tear our ACL. A guy like Barclay probably works out his legs to most as he needs to plant himself in place and/or push and keep the defense away from Lacy and Rodgers. So, his awkward fall in conjunction with his "over-conditioned" legs = ACL tear.

Just my $.02

Sorry man, I was being sarcastic.

 

[E. Wolf]

Great post, Chico. Thanks.

 

[ivo610]

I think we BOTH know that he wasn't asking if you have any "specific knowledge" about who to blame. He was CLEARLY asking if you had any specific knowledge about ACL tears and how they happen and what the factors are.




Seriously? Really?

A broken collar bone is one thing, as it doesn't happen too often and a broken bone simply cannot be attributed to too much or too little conditioning. Bad luck and a 300lb defensive lineman made that happen.

As far has tearing ACLs I DO believe, in someway, that conditioning has SOMETHING to do with it. It is either too little conditioning to too much. I read that Barclay "took a bad fall in practice" and tore his ACL. How often have you fell and tore a ligament? My guess is never to very, very rarely.

Lets use myself as an example here. I am an overweight guy, not "fat guy in a floaty chair from WALL-E" overweight, but overweight none the less. I know that due to my weight there is more stress put on my heart and joints. Therefore, I am more likely to suffer a heart attack and have bad knees and ankles in the future, if not arthritis.

Now then, as an athlete these guys build up their muscles and sometimes to the extreme with very little body fat. These muscles are now extremely taught, and as such so are the tendons and ligaments. It wouldn't take much to make one tear or rip, or at least not as much as it would take for one of US to tear our ACL. A guy like Barclay probably works out his legs to most as he needs to plant himself in place and/or push and keep the defense away from Lacy and Rodgers. So, his awkward fall in conjunction with his "over-conditioned" legs = ACL tear.

Just my $.02

I actually had no idea what he was asking, as what it appeared he was asking seemed to have little to do with what I said. I would only assume he would ask something about my comment. Thus why I asked ....

 

[Carl]

I think we BOTH know that he wasn't asking if you have any "specific knowledge" about who to blame. He was CLEARLY asking if you had any specific knowledge about ACL tears and how they happen and what the factors are.




Seriously? Really?

A broken collar bone is one thing, as it doesn't happen too often and a broken bone simply cannot be attributed to too much or too little conditioning. Bad luck and a 300lb defensive lineman made that happen.

As far has tearing ACLs I DO believe, in someway, that conditioning has SOMETHING to do with it. It is either too little conditioning to too much. I read that Barclay "took a bad fall in practice" and tore his ACL. How often have you fell and tore a ligament? My guess is never to very, very rarely.

Lets use myself as an example here. I am an overweight guy, not "fat guy in a floaty chair from WALL-E" overweight, but overweight none the less. I know that due to my weight there is more stress put on my heart and joints. Therefore, I am more likely to suffer a heart attack and have bad knees and ankles in the future, if not arthritis.

Now then, as an athlete these guys build up their muscles and sometimes to the extreme with very little body fat. These muscles are now extremely taught, and as such so are the tendons and ligaments. It wouldn't take much to make one tear or rip, or at least not as much as it would take for one of US to tear our ACL. A guy like Barclay probably works out his legs to most as he needs to plant himself in place and/or push and keep the defense away from Lacy and Rodgers. So, his awkward fall in conjunction with his "over-conditioned" legs = ACL tear.

Just my $.02

The ACL isn't attached to muscle. It's attached to the femur and tibia. Increased muscle mass would not make it tighter.

 

[7thFloorRA]

These last 3 ACL injuries are weird. How many times do the guys finish practice like Abby and Bulaga? Barclays sounds like it was non contact as well. An injury like Quarless' is the one you can't do a damn thing about. The guy got blown up and unless his entire leg turns to Iron Man the second before he gets hit there is nothing that could have been done to prevent that.

I don't understand why MM is prepared to die with Lovat rather than make a change. There are a lot of unknowns in this equation except Lovat....he has been there every year and the results are the same every year. I remember listening to MM say they were going to look at how they train and make adjustments and what not to curb the injuries. I then remember listening to Barclay on the big unit's show a month or so ago saying that NOTHING changed about their off season training only that guys were doing yoga. The strength program was still the same.

 

[JBlood]

70% of ACL tears are non-contact (do not involve a collision with another player). Most occur when the foot is planted to change direction. The injury rate is higher in the female athlete, and higher in male athletes that are "loose jointed". The forces involved across the knee are many times body weight, and are increased due to the size and speed of today's players. Players who are very tight ligamentous-wise may easily walk around with no immediate sense of instability, which I imagine describes Barclay, Abbredaris, and the receiver traded to the Eagles last year who was practicing with us and found to have an ACL tear. I think the evidence is beginning to show that fatigue is an important part of soft tissue injury. Each player reaches a fatigue point unique to him, or her which increases the risk of injury--whether it's the ACL, hamstring, or some other injury. The GPS monitoring device the Packers are using is designed to measure the danger point, and avoid it during training. I suspect only the "stars" are currently using them, but I would think all players will eventually use them in the off season as well as during the season. The Packers are doing all they can to minimize injury, imo.

 

[cara murphy]

It is terrible that get hurt is inevitable.