Does an unusually high number of ACL Tears sugggest defective training and medical oversight

[ivo610]

What i mean is this: You offered NO insight, facts or rationale about the nature of ACLs that would support or refute the notion that trainind and medical staff are a factor behind this. I am asking if you can offer any.

I never said they were, I just said i agree with Wilde

 

[ivo610]

Hi Carl,

I don't think anyone attributes the sorts of injuries Rodgers or Cobb suffered last year can be anything but bad luck. ....

Im sure if you look around the forum you will find them. LT im sure remembers them

 

[Darth Garfunkel]

ACL's are weird. I blew mine just stepping wrong while running. With all of the planting, dudes cut blocking and knee diving etc I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often. I can see the hammy thing being chalked up to some training issue but twisting a knee isn't something that there's a whole lot you can do about.

 

[Forget Favre]

I dunno.
I play softball and another player helps me warm up before games.
He said that it's better to do that than to stretch.
And I agree.
I would feel some pain in one of my calves after games where I stretched.
But the last time there was no pain when he showed me a warm up to do instead.
Maybe they shouldn't stretch before practice and just warm up instead?
I dunno what their routine is.

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

I have zero medical background, but have personally witnessed multiple knee/leg injuries. I have come to believe that it has a lot to do with over training with too much weight(s). The knee has to support basically 80% of your entire body weight. I was told by my doctor that for every pound of weight I lost, it would releive 4 pounds of pressure on my knee(s). There massive bodies that these guys have and the fact that they hit the weight room and led press abnormally high weight numbers ( 700+ Lbs) and some guys squat 600+ Lbs on almost a daily basis is over training. I can't say I blame them, some of them get a "work out bonus". I think it is unnatural for your body to endure this type of workout and puts unneeded stress on an already stressed joint. Look at the body mass difference between today's NFL player vs that of even just 30 years ago. Most players nowadays look like they are chisled out of stone.... that may be massive gym time in combo with modern supliments, but their muscle growth happens at an alarming rate....or it could be the "juice" helping. Guys from 30 years ago were big, yes, but not nearly as crammed full of muscle. This may have an adverse affect of the knees since they are having to endure added muscle weight, added stress at a rapid growth rate. Also, I am willing to bet that these hulky type guys hardly ever go for an endurance run (5 miles or more). I have seen guys that were in the Marines with me that were just pure muscle heads and gym rats, they even made cm3 look small....yet they were running 3 or 4 times per week for extended distance and they never had knee or leg issues...... yet some muscle heads that didn't run and chose to do nothing but gym work.... their knees were like a brittle bridge. Maybe a little less leg pressing of passenger cars and a little more cardio would help. Just my .02 cents.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I don´t have any medical background so I won´t tell anybody what to do to prevent injuries.

But the number of the injuries the Packers have suffered over the last four seasons is alarming. While making some changes to the strength and conditioning staff wouldn´t guarantee an improvement it seems like holding on to them obviously doesn´t work.

 

[Carl]

I dunno.
I play softball and another player helps me warm up before games.
He said that it's better to do that than to stretch.
And I agree.
I would feel some pain in one of my calves after games where I stretched.
But the last time there was no pain when he showed me a warm up to do instead.
Maybe they shouldn't stretch before practice and just warm up instead?
I dunno what their routine is.

Agree. Stretching before has been shown to have no benefit for injury prevention and even decreases strength and performance due to stretching the muscle out of its optimal length.

 

[Carl]

I have zero medical background, but have personally witnessed multiple knee/leg injuries. I have come to believe that it has a lot to do with over training with too much weight(s). The knee has to support basically 80% of your entire body weight. I was told by my doctor that for every pound of weight I lost, it would releive 4 pounds of pressure on my knee(s). There massive bodies that these guys have and the fact that they hit the weight room and led press abnormally high weight numbers ( 700+ Lbs) and some guys squat 600+ Lbs on almost a daily basis is over training. I can't say I blame them, some of them get a "work out bonus". I think it is unnatural for your body to endure this type of workout and puts unneeded stress on an already stressed joint. Look at the body mass difference between today's NFL player vs that of even just 30 years ago. Most players nowadays look like they are chisled out of stone.... that may be massive gym time in combo with modern supliments, but their muscle growth happens at an alarming rate....or it could be the "juice" helping. Guys from 30 years ago were big, yes, but not nearly as crammed full of muscle. This may have an adverse affect of the knees since they are having to endure added muscle weight, added stress at a rapid growth rate. Also, I am willing to bet that these hulky type guys hardly ever go for an endurance run (5 miles or more). I have seen guys that were in the Marines with me that were just pure muscle heads and gym rats, they even made cm3 look small....yet they were running 3 or 4 times per week for extended distance and they never had knee or leg issues...... yet some muscle heads that didn't run and chose to do nothing but gym work.... their knees were like a brittle bridge. Maybe a little less leg pressing of passenger cars and a little more cardio would help. Just my .02 cents.

Have you heard from somewhere that some of the guys squat that much almost daily?

If that's the case, then some blame certainly could be on the staff as no good or even average strength coach should be advising near max squats that often.

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

I dunno.
I play softball and another player helps me warm up before games.
He said that it's better to do that than to stretch.
And I agree.
I would feel some pain in one of my calves after games where I stretched.
But the last time there was no pain when he showed me a warm up to do instead.
Maybe they shouldn't stretch before practice and just warm up instead?
I dunno what their routine is.

Agree, we never really streched before PT, we always just did 4 count push ups, 4 count jumping jacks, sit ups and pull ups and then took off on a run or a work out. I never felt sore after a good 5 min. warm up.

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

Have you heard from somewhere that some of the guys squat that much almost daily?

If that's the case, then some blame certainly could be on the staff as no good or even average strength coach should be advising near max squats that often.

I watch a lot of that show on nfl network that used to be on hbo. Been seeing a lot of re runs of the bengals camp. these dudes are CRAZY in the weight room. One dude had six(6) 45 Lbs plates on each side of the bar, for a total of tweleve (12) 45 lbs plates plus the bar weight and was cranking them out without even the proper form and was going at light speed. That was them and not us, but I am sure that we have similar muscle heads. lol

A couple years ago, Adrian peterson had bragged how he could leg press 1000 Lbs, and look what happened to his knee.....

 

[ExpatPacker]

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos...e-day-nfl-records-61-acl-tears-in-2013/24699/

61 last season total last season.

That's an average of just under 2 per team. I wonder what the distribution of injuries was in relation to teams?

 

[Pack-12]

Do we actually suffer an unusually high number of ACL tears?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

That's an average of just under 2 per team. I wonder what the distribution of injuries was in relation to teams?

5 Carolina, San Francisco
4 New Orleans, New York Jets, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh
3 San Diego, Miami, Washington, Cincinnati, Cleveland
2 Kansas City, Denver, Seattle, Chicago, Indianapolis, St. Louis, Arizona
1 Packers, Atlanta, Tampa Bay, Buffalo, New York Giants, Minnesota, New England

Seven teams (Baltimore, Houston, Tennessee, Jacksonville, Oakland, Dallas and Detroit) didn´t suffer any ACL injuries last season.

 

[Luca]

I found some interesting quotes from Raymond Verheijen. He is a top dog soccer fitness guru. According to him most ACL injuries can be prevented. He blames fatigue for most injuries. The injury prevention program that Verheijen introduced at Feyenoord has dramatically reduced injuries.

Raymond Verheijen:
"Nine out of 10 ACLs can be avoided, because the main reason why an ACL happens is that the knee is temporarily unprotected when the players turns or leans.
Normally, your muscles contract to stabilise the knee and nothing happens. Over the holiday period when players play so many games and have accumulated fatigue, their nervous system slows down and the signal from the brain to the muscles gets slower.
When they make explosive movements the signal arrives a millisecond too late, the player leans or turns with an unprotected knee and the ACL snaps.
You often see the ACL happens with a very simple action – something a player has done in his career one million times. On one million occasions the knee was protected and everything was in its place. On the one-million-and-first time the signal arrives too late and the ACL snaps."

Another quotes from Verheijen (can't find the link anymore though)
"If a player goes from nothing to everything he risks injury. If you haven’t played for a while you are not totally fit. Then, when you play a game when you are not top fit you will need more recovery time than normal. So a less fit player is more susceptible to injury."

I don't have a medical background so I an not sure. I do however know several people who work or have worked for (semi-)pro-soccer teams, and they all say that ACL injuries (and mustle injuries) can be prevented with better training schemes. I guess there should be a lesson in here for the NFL as well.

http://www.goal.com/en-tz/news/5786...playing-russian-roulette-with-walcotts-career

 

[HardRightEdge]

Perhaps, and this only a "perhaps", the DD GrassMaster turf is a contributing factor in knee and ankle injuries. This turf is installed in Lambeau and on all of the Packers' outdoor practice fields.

It contains about 3% artificial filaments woven in with the natural grass to improve wearability. You don't see divots coming up at Lambeau even under wet conditions because of this turf, so it apparently does not have the "give" of natural grass.

Denver is the only other NFL team that uses it. Pittsburgh and Philly had it for awhile, but it evidently did not hold up under the pressure of pro games plus college games plus concerts. It is more often used on soccer pitches.

One would think this has been or is being studied. Perhaps, and again only a "perhaps", there is an accepted trade off at work.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Perhaps, and this only a "perhaps", the DD GrassMaster turf is a contributing factor in knee and ankle injuries. This turf is installed in Lambeau and on all of the Packers' outdoor practice fields.

It contains about 3% artificial filaments woven in with the natural grass to improve wearability. You don't see divots coming up at Lambeau even under wet conditions because of this turf, so it apparently does not have the "give" of natural grass.

Denver is the only other NFL team that uses it. Pittsburgh and Philly had it for awhile, but it evidently did not hold up under the pressure of pro games plus college games plus concerts. It is more often used on soccer pitches.

One would think this has been or is being studied. Perhaps, and again only a "perhaps", there is an accepted trade off at work.

Interesting approach. Denver has ranked 24th, 9th, 15th and 18th over the last four seasons in Football Outsiders adjusted games lost stat.

 

[E. Wolf]

Perhaps, and this only a "perhaps", the DD GrassMaster turf is a contributing factor in knee and ankle injuries. This turf is installed in Lambeau and on all of the Packers' outdoor practice fields.

It contains about 3% artificial filaments woven in with the natural grass to improve wearability. You don't see divots coming up at Lambeau even under wet conditions because of this turf, so it apparently does not have the "give" of natural grass.

Denver is the only other NFL team that uses it. Pittsburgh and Philly had it for awhile, but it evidently did not hold up under the pressure of pro games plus college games plus concerts. It is more often used on soccer pitches.

One would think this has been or is being studied. Perhaps, and again only a "perhaps", there is an accepted trade off at work.

That idea was supported by some of what I read, including this tidbit:

” Factors contributing to ACL injuries include ground hardness, grass type and cleat type.”

 

[HardRightEdge]

That idea was supported by some of what I read, including this tidbit:

” Factors contributing to ACL injuries include ground hardness, grass type and cleat type.”

I would not indict DD GrassMaster without some kind of study being done. Unfortunatley, it would have to rely primarily on soccer team data.

ACLs get a lot of attention because they are usually season-ending. I'd note that we seem to have a fair number of knee sprains and ankle tweeks that don't end seasons which would also be symptomatic of a "grabby" turf.

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

I would not indict DD GrassMaster without some kind of study being done. Unfortunatley, it would have to rely primarily on soccer team data.

ACLs get a lot of attention because they are usually season-ending. I'd note that we seem to have a fair number of knee sprains and ankle tweeks that don't end seasons which would also be symptomatic of a "grabby" turf.

I think that most of all the dreaded hamstring has hurt us, could that be related as well?
The necks, hamstrings, shoulders, and then ACL's have been killers for us the past 5 years or so.

 

[JBlood]

Check out Catapult Sports device designed to prevent ACL, and other, injuries: http://www.catapultsports.com/unite...ptimeye-injury-prevention-technology-in-2013/

This is the company the Packers, along with a number of other NFL, NBA, international soccer teams, etc. have contracted with for injury prevention. I wonder if Barclay and Abby were wearing the device at the time of injury.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Check out Catapult Sports device designed to prevent ACL, and other, injuries: http://www.catapultsports.com/unite...ptimeye-injury-prevention-technology-in-2013/

This is the company the Packers, along with a number of other NFL, NBA, international soccer teams, etc. have contracted with for injury prevention. I wonder if Barclay and Abby were wearing the device at the time of injury.

Somewhere along the line I thought I read the Packers were using GPS tracking.

 

[JBlood]

Somewhere along the line I thought I read the Packers were using GPS tracking.

Yes, from what I've read Catapult is the first company to come up with a GPS device that measures fatigue in an athlete.

 

[Shawnsta3]

I know none of the old school guys will really be a fan but why not try more yoga? It seemed to work for the Seahawks last year. Tim Masthay, Randall Cobb, Tramon Williams, Clay Matthews and the man himself Aaron Rodgers already do it on there own.

http://fox6now.com/2014/08/03/its-a...s-players-are-realizing-the-benefits-of-yoga/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...-and-a-yoga-green-bay-mike-mccarthy/10383189/

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I know none of the old school guys will really be a fan but why not try more yoga? It seemed to work for the Seahawks last year. Tim Masthay, Randall Cobb, Tramon Williams, Clay Matthews and the man himself Aaron Rodgers already do it on there own.

http://fox6now.com/2014/08/03/its-a...s-players-are-realizing-the-benefits-of-yoga/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...-and-a-yoga-green-bay-mike-mccarthy/10383189/

Here are two Journal Sentinel stories about several Packers doing yoga at a tiny De Pere studio.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/pack...otential-with-yoga-b99290693z1-263048921.html

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/263149401.html

 

[E. Wolf]

If anyone listens to Green and Gold today it seems they have had far fewer hammy and muscle pulls so far this year. This suggests changes they have made are helping. I am still apprehensive. That's what happens when you suffer the highest number of injuries four out of five years.