Cornerbacks

[Dantés]

Fabian Moreau has the skill set to translate to being the best "cover guy" which fits the Packers scheme and how you keep overlooking Charles Harris to get to Watt, Bowser and Willis is beyond me.

Work out warriors are great but we're still talking about playing football here. If it came down to the 3 you seem to like I would take Willis as he has the best tape.

I disagree. Moreau isn't great at finding the ball or making a play on it. Value in round 2, but he's not the best cover guy.

"Workout warrior" connotes someone who tests well but can't play. That doesn't fit any of those three.

Harris is more advanced as a technician, but the other three are vastly superior athletes. That's how I land where I do. We value different things. Traits translate, as long as guys can play, better than production or technique.

 

[brandon2348]

I disagree. Moreau isn't great at finding the ball or making a play on it. Value in round 2, but he's not the best cover guy.

"Workout warrior" connotes someone who tests well but can't play. That doesn't fit any of those three.

Harris is more advanced as a technician, but the other three are vastly superior athletes. That's how I land where I do. We value different things. Traits translate, as long as guys can play, better than production or technique.

Moreau is a very fluid player with nice hips that translates into mirroring NFL receivers.

Watt has small legs and I see a problem holding up. Bowser is a situational guy and would be a reach as a 1-2nd round pick. Once again I do see Willis as being potentially a really good pick as he can do multiple things well.

Harris is a grand slam pass rusher who the Packers desperately need.

 

[Dantés]

Moreau is a very fluid player with nice hips that translates into mirroring NFL receivers.

Watt has small legs and I see a problem holding up. Bowser is a situational guy and would be a reach as a 1-2nd round pick. Once again I do see Willis as being potentially a really good pick as he can do multiple things well.

Harris is a grand slam pass rusher who the Packers desperately need.

I agree Moreau is fluid. That wasn't what I was critiquing.

Small legs? Yeesh.

Bowser isn't a power player against the run, but can certainly make plays in that regard as a chase and tackle guy. But his strong points are his flexibility, closing speed, and explosion as a pass rusher as well as his ability in coverage.

Harris again, is one of the more developed pass rushers in the class. I would not be surprised if he was successful. But he's a below average athlete.

Over time, I've come around to factoring athletic testing more heavily. I've just found it to be too predictive to ignore. I don't have an issue with someone who prefers Harris because they like to tape better. I just have a different set of criteria. But it's not as though valuing the traits is baseless. It's demonstrably worth considering.

 

[brandon2348]

I agree Moreau is fluid. That wasn't what I was critiquing.

Small legs? Yeesh.

Bowser isn't a power player against the run, but can certainly make plays in that regard as a chase and tackle guy. But his strong points are his flexibility, closing speed, and explosion as a pass rusher as well as his ability in coverage.

Harris again, is one of the more developed pass rushers in the class. I would not be surprised if he was successful. But he's a below average athlete.

Over time, I've come around to factoring athletic testing more heavily. I've just found it to be too predictive to ignore. I don't have an issue with someone who prefers Harris because they like to tape better. I just have a different set of criteria. But it's not as though valuing the traits is baseless. It's demonstrably worth considering.

Below average athlete or bad day at Combine?

http://draftwire.usatoday.com/2017/...s-back-from-poor-combine-with-strong-pro-day/

I value athletic traits as well but way too much gets swayed on one day at the combine.

 

[Dantés]

Below average athlete or bad day at Combine?

http://draftwire.usatoday.com/2017/...s-back-from-poor-combine-with-strong-pro-day/

I value athletic traits as well but way too much gets swayed on one day at the combine.

You're right, he improved. His jumps were good. His three cone was bad.

Again, I really like him a lot. I think he will be successful, and I wouldn't balk at 29.

But the other three are extremely rare athletes and I think they're better bets for that reason.

 

[brandon2348]

You're right, he improved. His jumps were good. His three cone was bad.

Again, I really like him a lot. I think he will be successful, and I wouldn't balk at 29.

But the other three are extremely rare athletes and I think they're better bets for that reason.

Reggie White posted a 7.48 3 cone result and he got after the QB okay.


If Charles Harris is there at 29 and TT picks one of these other guys you mentioned over him I will be flabbergasted.

 

[Dantés]

Reggie White posted a 7.48 3 cone result and he got after the QB okay.


If Charles Harris is there at 29 and TT picks one of these other guys you mentioned over him I will be flabbergasted.

I hardly think we're talking about similar players. Didn't Reggie play around 300 lbs? Nor do I think it wise to find a player who came out nearly 40 years ago to be your examplar-- not when training for combine tests has changed dramatically.

But in any case the 3 cone is an important drill. Pass rushers with very good times have high success rates. But that is not the same thing as saying that players with bad times can't be good. It's predictive in the positive, not the negative.

Like I keep saying, Harris is very good. But Watt, Bowser, and Willis are the types of athletes that we were only seeing once every three years or so before this season. They're rare.

 

[brandon2348]

I hardly think we're talking about similar players. Didn't Reggie play around 300 lbs? Nor do I think it wise to find a player who came out nearly 40 years ago to be your examplar-- not when training for combine tests has changed dramatically.

But in any case the 3 cone is an important drill. Pass rushers with very good times have high success rates. But that is not the same thing as saying that players with bad times can't be good. It's predictive in the positive, not the negative.

Like I keep saying, Harris is very good. But Watt, Bowser, and Willis are the types of athletes that we were only seeing once every three years or so before this season. They're rare.

"Great athlete" doesn't always equate to "Great football player".

You laugh but Watt does have small legs which I find important when we're talking about a position where just about everything is generated below the belt. Bowser has bust written all over him considering where someone will reach for him and I don't see anything all that special about him. His tape hardly jumps out.

I belive Willis to be the real deal but once again I would take Harris if I had to choose.

 

[Dantés]

"Great athlete" doesn't always equate to "Great football player".

You laugh but Watt does have small legs which I find important when we're talking about a position where just about everything is generated below the belt. Bowser has bust written all over him considering where someone will reach for him and I don't see anything all that special about him. His tape hardly jumps out.

I belive Willis to be the real deal but once again I would take Harris if I had to choose.

I laugh because you were kind of poking fun at me for valuing the tests to the extent that I do and then you're telling me that you're down on Watt because his legs appear skinny to you. That was just humorous juxtaposition.

Here's the list of drafted edge players with sub 6.90 three cone since 2000:

Kyle Vanden Bosch
Demarcus Ware
Brian Robison
Connor Barwin
J.J. Watt
Sam Acho
Von Miller
Melvin Ingram
Bruce Irvin
Devin Taylor
Barkevious Mingo
Kony Ealy
Trent Murphy
Anthony Barr
Joey Bosa

Bowser came in at 6.75, bested only by Miller and Irvin.

He tested well everywhere else as well. And his tape was getting top 50 love before the combine.

Not sure how that has "bust" written all over it.

 

[brandon2348]

I laugh because you were kind of poking fun at me for valuing the tests to the extent that I do and then you're telling me that you're down on Watt because his legs appear skinny to you. That was just humorous juxtaposition.

Here's the list of drafted edge players with sub 6.90 three cone since 2000:

Kyle Vanden Bosch
Demarcus Ware
Brian Robison
Connor Barwin
J.J. Watt
Sam Acho
Von Miller
Melvin Ingram
Bruce Irvin
Devin Taylor
Barkevious Mingo
Kony Ealy
Trent Murphy
Anthony Barr
Joey Bosa

Bowser came in at 6.75, bested only by Miller and Irvin.

He tested well everywhere else as well. And his tape was getting top 50 love before the combine.

Not sure how that has "bust" written all over it.

He is no Haason Red****.

 

[Dantés]

By the way, Bowser only rushed on ~170 snaps last season and had 8.5 sacks. That's about half as many as average for a college pass rusher.

 

[Dantés]

He is no Haason Red****.

Red**** isn't even a full time edge in the NFL and is almost certainly going top 20. Not sure where that comment came from or what it has to do with anything.

 

[brandon2348]

Red**** isn't even a full time edge in the NFL and is almost certainly going top 20. Not sure where that comment came from or what it has to do with anything.

That's my point. Bowser isn't either and can't do the other things Red**** can do.

This Bowser is a situational pass rusher therfore not interested with 1-2 round pick. Total reach.

 

[Dantés]

That's my point. Bowser isn't either and can't do the other things Red**** can do.

This Bowser is a situational pass rusher therfore not interested with 1-2 round pick. Total reach.

Nonsense. It's the run defense specialists who are falling. Players who can rush and cover are at an all time high value. It's not like Harris is some run game bully.

Your argument is silly. It's like me saying "Harris isn't as good as Barnett so he isn't good." Bravo.

 

[brandon2348]

Nonsense. It's the run defense specialists who are falling. Players who can rush and cover are at an all time high value. It's not like Harris is some run game bully.

Your argument is silly. It's like me saying "Harris isn't as good as Barnett so he isn't good." Bravo.

I have Harris as the best pure pass rusher in the draft. Harris btw is serviceable against the run.

 

[Dantés]

I have Harris as the best pure pass rusher in the draft. Harris btw is serviceable against the run.

So is Bowser if you're using him correctly.

This is all very strange. I provided pretty hard evidence for why Bowser's chances are strong and you said that he's not as good as a guy who is supposed to go way higher than him. Ok. Good talk.

 

[brandon2348]

The debate has nothing to do with Barnett. You said you would take Watt, Bowser and Willis ahead of Harris and I disagree.

The only one that is even close is Willis. Yesterday you said something to me about me complaining about TT and not picking my guys.

So yeah if TT takes Bowser over Harris I have a big problem with that.

 

[Dantés]

The debate has nothing to do with Barnett. You said you would take Watt, Bowser and Willis ahead of Harris and I disagree.

The only one that is even close is Willis. Yesterday you said something to me about me complaining about TT and not picking my guys.

So yeah if TT takes Bowser over Harris I have a big problem with that.

Congrats, you get the point. It has nothing to do with Red**** either. But that didn't seem to stop you.

I look forward to your post-draft grades/rants. I'll make sure to have the popcorn on hand.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I look forward to your post-draft grades/rants. I'll make sure to have the popcorn on hand.

I'm bringing the fire hose!

 

[Scotland Yard]

Has anyone noticed we don't have any big WR's in the NFC North for the Packers to worry about?

So it got me thinking, instead of always taking the size prospects (i.e., over 5'11") at CB and getting stuck with guys like Randall and Gunter who can't stay within five yards of a WR, maybe the Packers should look at some shorter CB's who can cover.

For instance, Adoree' Jackson (USC), Jourdan Lewis (Michigan) and Jalen Myrick (Minnesota) are all shorter than TT's usual minimum. However, Jackson and Lewis in particular can absolutely smother a WR by staying right in his hip pocket.

Sure, you might have a couple non-division games every year with a tall WR, but, we still have House and Randall for that duty. Maybe the Packers should just focus on getting some CB's that can blanket a WR for a change.

 

[Dantés]

Has anyone noticed we don't have any big WR's in the NFC North for the Packers to worry about?

So it got me thinking, instead of always taking the size prospects (i.e., over 5'11") at CB and getting stuck with guys like Randall and Gunter who can't stay within five yards of a WR, maybe the Packers should look at some shorter CB's who can cover.

For instance, Adoree' Jackson (USC), Jourdan Lewis (Michigan) and Jalen Myrick (Minnesota) are all shorter than TT's usual minimum. However, Jackson and Lewis in particular can absolutely smother a WR by staying right in his hip pocket.

Sure, you might have a couple non-division games every year with a tall WR, but, we still have House and Randall for that duty. Maybe the Packers should just focus on getting some CB's that can blanket a WR for a change.

It's not a terrible idea, but TT's track record tells me he values height at corner. He's never drafted one under 5'11".

I do like Jackson. He needs to develop in his coverage skills, though last year was a nice step forward. But he's a special talent and would make a big ST impact right away. Could turn a game or two on returns alone.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Has anyone noticed we don't have any big WR's in the NFC North for the Packers to worry about?

So it got me thinking, instead of always taking the size prospects (i.e., over 5'11") at CB and getting stuck with guys like Randall and Gunter who can't stay within five yards of a WR, maybe the Packers should look at some shorter CB's who can cover.

For instance, Adoree' Jackson (USC), Jourdan Lewis (Michigan) and Jalen Myrick (Minnesota) are all shorter than TT's usual minimum. However, Jackson and Lewis in particular can absolutely smother a WR by staying right in his hip pocket.

Sure, you might have a couple non-division games every year with a tall WR, but, we still have House and Randall for that duty. Maybe the Packers should just focus on getting some CB's that can blanket a WR for a change.

True, we don't have a Megatron size player in the division (at present), but I don't think you build a defense strictly around defending 1 or even 3 divisional opponents or even specific wide receivers, after all, you still face 10 other teams + playoffs. I'm not an expert on what height you want your CB's to be, but I'm sure there are a lot of factors other than height that go into what TT and the Packers are looking for. At this point, I will take a 5' 8" or a 6'8" guy as long as he can cover like a blanket, jump like a rabbit, make tackles and doesn't consistently get lit up by any size receiver. Sam Shields is listed at 5' 11" and his height never seemed to be much of a factor in his coverage skills.

 

[thequick12]

Harris is a grand slam pass rusher who the Packers desperately need.[/QUOTE]

I guess we'll see but he runs as well as Richard Rodgers I dont think that's gonna translate. his agility numbers are also not very good I think what you want is good tape and workout numbers so you can relatively safely assume their game will translate and get better in the nfl. I don't think Harris can get much better because athletically he's not gonna be able to cut it. I'd take watt or Willis and be happy seems both can set the edge and rush the passer. if I had to choose between the 2 I'd take Willis as his 10 yard split was 1.54 which is an indicator of likely elite pass rush ability when paired with his tape. if he falls to 2nd round pick that'd be a steal probably have to take him at 29 though. That's tied for the 2nd best I was able to find with wr Penn state Chris Godwin another player I could see TT taking in the 2nd and cb Shaq Griffen a player that could be headed to green bay in 4/5th round. best was Obi Melifonwu 1.51 which makes him a interesting option to man the nickel corner spot vacated by Hyde or the nickel linebacker played by Morgan Burnett.

 

[Dantés]

This turned into quite the chore, but I wanted to compare sub-5'11" corners in the top 3 rounds to those 5'11" and over. I chose the top three rounds because a) there has to be some limit to the amount of names I'm pulling, and b) those are generally the rounds in which you're expecting to find starters. I'm considering a hit to be a guy who is/was a solid starter for a sustained amount of time. I started with the 2014 class and worked backwards as that is the most recent class that I feel can be fairly evaluated. There are many more 5'11" and up players out there, so for them I went back to 2010 and for the shorties I went back to '05 (the sample sizes were 42-13 if I stopped at '10 for both). Disclaimer: there is a subjective element to this and the farther back it goes, the fuzzier my memory gets of these players. When in doubt, look through the names and decide for yourself.

Sub 5'11":

1. Jason Verrett (1st)*
2. Dexter McDougle (3rd)
3. Robert Alford (2nd)*
4. Leon McFadden (3rd)
5. Kayvon Webster (3rd)
6. Janoris Jenkins (2nd)*
7. Josh Robinson (3rd)
8. Dwight Bentley (3rd)
9. Jayron Hosley (3rd)
10. Brandon Harris (2nd)
11. Kareem Jackson (1st)*
12. Kyle Wilson (1st)
13. Javier Arenas (2nd)
14. Alphonso Smith (2nd)
15. Darius Butler (2nd)
16. Asher Allen (3rd)
17. Lardarius Webb (3rd)*
18. Chris Owens (3rd)
19. Jerraud Powers (3rd)*
20. Ryan Mouton (3rd)
21. Leodis McKelvin (1st)*
22. Mike Jenkins (1st)*
23. Brandon Flowers (2nd)*
24. Terrence Wheatley (2nd)
25. Eric Wright (2nd)*
26. Josh Wilson (2nd)*
27. Dante Hughes (3rd)
28. Tye Hill (1st)
29. Tim Jennings (2nd)*
30. Adam Jones (1st)*
31. Darrent Williams (2nd)
32. Justin Miller (2nd)
33. Ellis Hobbs (3rd)*
34. Scott Starks (3rd)

I've starred the guys that I'm considering hits. So you're talking about a hit rate of 41%. Going back an extra 5 years gave the numbers a big boost. If you stop at 2010, it's 31%.

5'11"+:

1. Justin Gilbert (1st)
2. Kyle Fuller (1st)*
3. Darqueze Dennard (1st)
4. Bradley Roby (1st)
5. Stanley Jean-Baptiste (2nd)
6. Phillip Gaines (3rd)
7. Dee Milliner (1st)
8. D.J. Hayden (1st)
9. Desmond Trufant (1st)*
10. Xavier Rhodes (1st)*
11. Darius Slay (2nd)*
12. Johnthan Banks (2nd)
13. David Amerson (2nd)*
14. Jamar Taylor (2nd)*
15. Dwayne Gratz (3rd)
16. Blidi Wreh-Wilson (3rd)
17. Logan Ryan (3rd)*
18. Will Davis (3rd)
19. Morris Claiborne (1st)
20. Stephon Gilmore (1st)*
21. Dre Kirkpatrick (1st)*
22. Casey Hayward (2nd)*
23. Trumaine Johnson (2nd)*
24. Jamell Fleming (3rd)
25. Patrick Peterson (1st)*
26. Prince Amukamara (1st)*
27. Jimmy Smith (1st)*
28. Ras-I Dowling (2nd)
29. Chris Culliver (3rd)
30. Demarcus Van **** (3rd)
31. Johnny Patrick (3rd)
32. Shareece Wright (3rd)
33. Curtis Marsh (3rd)
34. Curtis Brown (3rd)
35. Joe Haden (1st)*
36. Patrick Robinson (1st)
37. Chris Cook (2nd)
38. Jerome Murphy (3rd)
39. Amari Spievey (3rd)
40. Myron Lewis (3rd)
41. Kevin Thomas (3rd)
42. Brandon Ghee (3rd)

The hit rate here is 36%.

5/7 of the first round shorties were considered hits.

9/16 of the first round non-shorties were considered hits.

Based on this very rough study, it doesn't seem to make a tremendous amount of sense to rule out short corners. It would seem to me that if a short corner is talented enough to get themselves taken high in the draft, chances are they will pay off to some extent. The one thing I notice not in their favor is that most of the "#1" corners are taller. There are 2-3 "#1" types in that list of short corners, if I'm being generous. There are 5-6 in the tall group, and there would be quite a few more if I took it back to '05.

Bottom line-- I doubt TT will consider players like Adoree' Jackson very seriously, but I think he should. I understand some of the minimums that he seems to hold to, but this one doesn't seem very helpful.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Has anyone noticed we don't have any big WR's in the NFC North for the Packers to worry about?

So it got me thinking, instead of always taking the size prospects (i.e., over 5'11") at CB and getting stuck with guys like Randall and Gunter who can't stay within five yards of a WR, maybe the Packers should look at some shorter CB's who can cover.

For instance, Adoree' Jackson (USC), Jourdan Lewis (Michigan) and Jalen Myrick (Minnesota) are all shorter than TT's usual minimum. However, Jackson and Lewis in particular can absolutely smother a WR by staying right in his hip pocket.

Sure, you might have a couple non-division games every year with a tall WR, but, we still have House and Randall for that duty. Maybe the Packers should just focus on getting some CB's that can blanket a WR for a change.

The Packers need a cornerback capable of covering taller receivers as well though as the team will face such opponents over the course of a season. I wouldn't mind adding a smaller player at the position capable of getting his hands on jump balls in those situations as well but would take a close look at the result of their vertical jumps.