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I have had discussions with Amish about Thompson in the past and am well aware of the fact that he believes Thompson can't do no wrong.

It's ludicrous to support TT not addressing the team's biggest weakness in free agency because the draft class is supposedly deep at the position. That doesn't guarantee getting an impact player at all though.

Therefore entering the draft with a huge hole to fill on the roster isn't a smart way to handle business, especially for a team most likely only a few pieces away from being a legitimate title contender.

Regardless of whatever conversations you've had with him previously, what he said in this case was completely self-evident and you jumped it because of an oblique reference to TT's theorized prowess. His main point was clearly: cornerback is a big need; cornerback is a strength of this class.
 
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His main point was clearly: cornerback is a big need; cornerback is a strength of this class.

I obviously don't disagree with that but that the strengths of past drafts coincided with the team's weaknesses over the last few years as well.
 
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I think Conley would have the best chance to plug in immediately but I don't expect him there at 29. Like I posted I don't see King dangling there at 29 either. Well see how it all shakes out.

Jackson concerns me as far as being able to play well right away.

If the King and Connelly are gone and Charles Harris is on the board I think they have to take him as he is a day 1 pass rusher with huge upside. If TT addresed corner proir to draft it would really open the board more as well.

That's my biggest issue with the whole thing.

Jackson certainly isn't going to come down and start shadowing opposing #1 wide receivers, but I do believe that his ball skills and ability in run defense could get him on the field and contributing fairly early. And his return skills obviously give him an avenue for instant impact as well.

Charles Harris is a conundrum to me. He tested like a scrub at the combine, but then had dramatically better results at his pro day. I'm inclined to believe the latter based on what I saw on tape. But my preference would be to take one of the true freaks like Watt or Willis. Those guys are rare athletes.
 
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I obviously don't disagree with that but that the strengths of past drafts coincided with the team's weaknesses over the last few years as well.

I just find it ironic that, while calling him blind, you ignore his main point and hone in on what was really an ancillary thought. I don't see how that's any different from being a total TT homer-- simply in the negative. The poster that can't say anything negative about the guy and the poster who can't let anything positive go by uncontested are really the same.
 

brandon2348

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Yeah, I understand this for sure. You don't want to be counting on a rookie taken 29th overall to be "the guy." But like you said, corner prospects are usually selected to be developed and groomed over time. That's one of the reasons why, without really opposing it, I didn't expect TT to sign a big time corner. He spent 1st and 2nd round picks on the position as a long term investment.

My guess is that he looks at the situation last year and sees some mitigating factors. Shields' injury forced the younger players into bigger roles before they were ready, and then they all got injured on top of it. Given that both Randall and Rollins had solid rookie seasons and that TT simply trusts his prospect as a draft/develop GM, I have little doubt that he views last year as an unfortunate aberration and looks for both players to get back on track this season.

Now just to be clear, I'm not trying to argue that this is a fool proof plan or that those guys are going to be studs. I'm just pointing out that that's the way that TT operates.


Oh trust me, I've been around long enough to see exactly how "TT operates". That appears to be the problem.

We've had a lengthy chat about TT needing to change his attitude towards free agency and filling immediate needs prior to free agency. So far he has failed again.

Developing Randall and Rollins are great but they were both miserably bad last year. They both look like they were big time reaches by TT thus far. First taking Randall who played safety in college and making him a corner in the NFL. Then taking Rollins who only played football 1 season at a smaller school.

I want these guys to turn it around as much as anyone but I'm not holding my breath that they will.
 
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He spent 1st and 2nd round picks on the position as a long term investment.

My guess is that he looks at the situation last year and sees some mitigating factors. Shields' injury forced the younger players into bigger roles before they were ready, and then they all got injured on top of it.

In my opinion there's no reason to believe Randall or Rollins are ready to take over bigger roles this season by any means. While that has been Thompson's MO it hasn't worked out at several position in the past.
 
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Oh trust me, I've been around long enough to see exactly how "TT operates". That appears to be the problem.

We've had a lengthy chat about TT needing to change his attitude towards free agency and filling immediate needs prior to free agency. So far he has failed again.

Developing Randall and Rollins are great but they were both miserably bad last year. They both look like they were big time reaches by TT thus far. First taking Randall who played safety in college and making him a corner in the NFL. Then taking Rollins who only played football 1 season at a smaller school.

I want these guys to turn it around as much as anyone but I'm not holding my breath that they will.

Both struggled last year, but both were also hurt.

I just don't understand why I see these two takes side by side so often:

We can't count on a rookie corner because CB's need to develop.

AND

The corners we drafted high are bad and (it's assumed) won't develop.

That seems to be a contradiction to me.
 
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In my opinion there's no reason to believe Randall or Rollins are ready to take over bigger roles this season by any means. While that has been Thompson's MO it hasn't worked out at several position in the past.

He isn't perfect, and yet he consistently fields a PO roster and he HAS stuck by struggling draft picks long enough to see it pay off (e.g. Bakhtiari, Adams, Perry). I don't see many people trying to guarantee that Randall or Rollins are a lock to bounce back, but I see posters left and right basically guaranteeing that they won't. Apparently that agenda is fine, but any sort of optimism needs to be snuffed.
 
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I just don't understand why I see these two takes side by side so often:

We can't count on a rookie corner because CB's need to develop.

AND

The corners we drafted high are bad and (it's assumed) won't develop.

That seems to be a contradiction to me.

The main reason I'm not optimistic about Randall and Rollins significantly progressing is that they have struggled without a veteran #1 cornerback on the field even during their rookie campaign. In addition while injuries played a part in their dismal season in 2016 both of them performed at a terrible level while being healthy as well.

I don't see many people trying to guarantee that Randall or Rollins are a lock to bounce back, but I see posters left and right basically guaranteeing that they won't. Apparently that agenda is fine, but any sort of optimism needs to be snuffed.

I'm optimistic about a young player progressing once I have seen a reason to (like Adams last season as well as Clark, Martinez and Lowry this year). Unfortunately there's no confidence in any of the cornerbacks though.
 

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This is a new level of blind support for Thompson. It seems that now he's even capable of adjusting the team's weaknesses to the strength of a draft class??? Geez!!!

I wonder why it took him several years to adequately address inside linebacker, tight end and safety in the past then.
Quite the reach there capt. It sounds like blind despising on your part.
 

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Jackson certainly isn't going to come down and start shadowing opposing #1 wide receivers, but I do believe that his ball skills and ability in run defense could get him on the field and contributing fairly early. And his return skills obviously give him an avenue for instant impact as well.

Charles Harris is a conundrum to me. He tested like a scrub at the combine, but then had dramatically better results at his pro day. I'm inclined to believe the latter based on what I saw on tape. But my preference would be to take one of the true freaks like Watt or Willis. Those guys are rare athletes.

Sign me up for Harris of the 3. I like Mizzou pass rushers translating to NFL success. I also think Harris has the fastest first step of the 3. We have Perry to set the edge. We need a guy that can go get it and Harris is the guy.
 

brandon2348

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Both struggled last year, but both were also hurt.

I just don't understand why I see these two takes side by side so often:

We can't count on a rookie corner because CB's need to develop.

AND

The corners we drafted high are bad and (it's assumed) won't develop.

That seems to be a contradiction to me.

Look, we're stuck with both Randall and Rollins so we have to develop them.

If we could go back in time would they still be players picked knowing what we know now?
 

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The last few years their needs have coincided with the strength of the draft. Not sure why you don't see that as a positive thing but hey - to each their own.
I think you've joined me and a few others on captW's schmidt list. Welcome aboard Amish.:)
 

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He isn't perfect, and yet he consistently fields a PO roster and he HAS stuck by struggling draft picks long enough to see it pay off (e.g. Bakhtiari, Adams, Perry). I don't see many people trying to guarantee that Randall or Rollins are a lock to bounce back, but I see posters left and right basically guaranteeing that they won't. Apparently that agenda is fine, but any sort of optimism needs to be snuffed.
Dantes, this happens every March and April in this forum. There are quite a few people in here that believe that young player's development is static. Play in December and January past will equal play in September coming will equal play in December coming. They don't believe the scouts assessments of talent and don't believe in the coaches ability to teach and develop. They want those "name" castoffs in FA and want them in the 1st 24 hours so we can pay them silly number bonuses. Then their ultimate fantasy roster will be set. They are the guys that called for Adams, Perry, Bakhtiari to be released and replaced. They know more than the scouts, coaching staff and GM combined with 2% of the information.

Dantes, remember who these posters are that spew this bile. In October or November, revisit these discussions and remind them that their credibility is in question when they start making guarantees and absolutist comments about player's and the team's future.

Meanwhile, enjoy the season unfold and the victories as they pile up as we likely head for another playoff run and hopefully things gel at the right time and make an appearance and then win the SB.

Edit: It's never easy, always fun and interesting.
 
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I think you've joined me and a few others on captW's schmidt list. Welcome aboard Amish.:)

Amish was on it long before you made it. ;)

Dantes, this happens every March and April in this forum. There are quite a few people in here that believe that young player's development is static. Play in December and January past will equal play in September coming will equal play in December coming. They don't believe the scouts assessments of talent and don't believe in the coaches ability to teach and develop. They want those "name" castoffs in FA and want them in the 1st 24 hours so we can pay them silly number bonuses. Then their ultimate fantasy roster will be set. They are the guys that called for Adams, Perry, Bakhtiari to be released and replaced.

Dantes, remember who these posters are that spew this bile. In October or November, revisit these discussions and remind them that their credibility is in question when they start making guarantees and absolutist comments about player's and the team's future.

Meanwhile, enjoy the season unfold and the victories as they pile up as we likely head for another playoff run and hopefully things gel at the right time and make an appearance and then win the SB.

I'm quite sure you felt oh-so smart when writing this post but let me ask you a simple question.

A lot of the posters criticizing Thompson for not addressing obvious positions of need in timely fashion believe the Packers are a playoff team as long as Rodgers is the team's quarterback but lack enough talent at other positions to win another Super Bowl while you and some others believe that Thompson's way is the only one to result in another championship.

Here's the question though, who has been correct about it over the last six years???
 

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Amish was on it long before you made it. ;)



I'm quite sure you felt oh-so smart when writing this post but let me ask you a simple question.

A lot of the posters criticizing Thompson for not addressing obvious positions of need in timely fashion believe the Packers are a playoff team as long as Rodgers is the team's quarterback but lack enough talent at other positions to win another Super Bowl while you and some others believe that Thompson's way is the only one to result in another championship.

Here's the question though, who has been correct about it over the last six years???
I never feel oh so smart. I don't possess enough inside info on players and coaches to even pretend.

There are many ways to achieve success. In the past, we've had playoff losses that came about because we didn't have players making plays at crucial times, coaches that perhaps didn't adjust well to circumstances and opponents, and yes even had a few years where a few teams had better talent or got their mojo going at the right time.

No one in the Packer organization is perfect. They've all made mistakes in retrospect. I'm ok with that. They make less mistakes than almost every other team in the NFL. I'm ok with that, too.
 
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They make less mistakes than almost every other team in the NFL. I'm ok with that, too.

Let me repeat again that I'm not a Thompson hater by any means but believe he's doing a good job overall.

The one thing that bothers me the most is Thompson's reluctancy to address obvious positions of need in a timely fashion. It seems that everyone else who only marginally follows the team is aware of those weaknesses yet the one in charge doesn't realize it. That is most likely the only reason the Packers haven't won another title.
 

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I never feel oh so smart. I don't possess enough inside info on players and coaches to even pretend.

There are many ways to achieve success. In the past, we've had playoff losses that came about because we didn't have players making plays at crucial times, coaches that perhaps didn't adjust well to circumstances and opponents, and yes even had a few years where a few teams had better talent or got their mojo going at the right time.

No one in the Packer organization is perfect. They've all made mistakes in retrospect. I'm ok with that. They make less mistakes than almost every other team in the NFL. I'm ok with that, too.

Would you be okay with renaming Green Bay "playoff town" cause the name "titletown" is starting to sound fraudulent based on recent efforts.

There mistakes are early and often and A.Rodgers cleans most of em up.
 

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Would you be okay with renaming Green Bay "playoff town" cause the name "titletown" is starting to sound fraudulent based on recent efforts.

There mistakes are early and often and A.Rodgers cleans most of em up.
Rodgers isn't exempt either. He hasn't always turned in brilliant playoff performances and a full 12 months of funk recently during parts of 15 and 16.
 

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Rodgers isn't exempt either. He hasn't always turned in brilliant playoff performances and a full 12 months of funk recently during parts of 15 and 16.

One man can only do so much. Without him were not even a playoff team.

Let me tell ya something. I was at the Tennessee game last year. We got laughed out of there so hard it was embarrassing.

If Thompson can't or won't do anything to fix it then screw it.
 
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Rodgers isn't exempt either. He hasn't always turned in brilliant playoff performances and a full 12 months of funk recently during parts of 15 and 16.

It is extremely tough to perform at an elite level in every single playoff game. Nevertheless Rodgers' passer rating in losses (87.9) is nearly as good as Brady's career mark (89.0).

Unfortunately he needs to be close to perfect for the Packers to have a legitimate shot though.
 
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Assuming that Lattimore, Conley, and Humphrey are gone by the time the 29th pick rolls around, there are two guys that I continually circle back to: Kevin King (Washington) and Chidobe Awuzie (Colorado).

King has a case to be the best overall athlete in this class. He's in the 99th% in sparq and his individual drill numbers were off the charts. His height, weight, arm length, and hand size are all in the 72nd% or larger. His forty is in the 72nd%, his vertical in the 88th%, his long shuttle in the 86th%, his short shuttle in the 96th%, and his three cone in the 96th%. He's such a rare athlete that he really doesn't have a good comp historically. I've never seen someone this big, this fast, and this fluid.

When looking through the box scores of cornerbacks, I look for PBU's and INT's to see how often they got their hand on the ball. In 2016 he had 2 picks and 13 PBU's, for a total of 15 which is a great number. The ball skills show up on tape too.

When I watch him play, he demonstrates the speed and fluidity that you want to see. He has the length to press all day long, though he's overly aggressive. He can get beat off the line due to a lack of patience in his punch. But that's very correctable. And despite being tall, he's capable in the slot. I see absolutely no reason why he couldn't be the best corner in this class in two years when he's had a little more time to grow into his frame and has had NFL coaches clean up his technique at the line of scrimmage.

That then brings me to Chidobe Awuzie. While not being quite as rare an athlete as King, he's up there. 97th% in sparq, above average height and weight, while hitting 72nd% in forty, 96th% in broad, 68th% in 3C, and 54th% in short shuttle. His vertical was the only below average drill (31st%). But I should point out that he improved his vertical at his pro day from 34.5" to 39.5", which is in the 88th%. Sometimes I don't trust vastly improved forties at pro days, but it would be hard to cheat a vertical jump so I think that pro day number is safe.

As far as getting his hands on passes, he had 1 pick and 12 PBU's in 2016. He had 2 picks and 7 PBU's in 2015.

On tape, he's a fluid man corner who stays in phase with receivers. He plays both inside and out. He has the size and physicality to deal with bigger receivers, and the quickness to deal with smaller slots. He's a dangerous blitzer from the slot and a good run defender. He has the total skill set to be a souped up version of Micah Hyde in that CB/S/Nickel role, but also has all the athleticism you want as a pure outside corner. Coaches will need to work on his technique downfield in terms of playing the ball and not the receiver. He gets too handsy and some of it that he got by with in college won't fly in the pros.

Give me either of these guys or one of the rare athletes at OLB (Watt, Bowser, or Willis) and I'll be happy.
 
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It's raining. I'm bored. I did something I said I wouldn't bother with: waste time looking at tape before the draft.

Thompson could do a lot worse than Awuzie; he checks off a lot of boxes:

1. Fills Hyde role as slot/safety swing man
2. Brings more speed and athleticism than Hyde, something this backfield could use
3. Both Burnett and Clinton-Dix will be free agents after this season; he's figure to be a year two starter at safety if he doesn't steal a perimeter spot; either way it's a win
4. McCarthy wants to play Burnett more at ILB; to do that you need a guy who can rotate to safety
5. Shows promise as a perimeter press corner, something the Packers are missing in man-blitz
6. He's very quick blitzing off the edge, something Capers likes to do when he has the guys to do it
7. I like his play anticipation; quick closer to the ball
9. Looks zone savvy which might fix some of those dime, 3rd. and 12, "first down!" plays
10. Should get a lot of snaps in various roles as a rookie

Weaknesses:

1. Ball skills. Maybe short arms and average size hands are a factor, but Job #1 if he earns perimeter snaps is limiting separation on the deep ball and closing on the short throw, which he looks to have; I'd expect a I decent number of defended passes but no many INTs; could get a few picks on the route jump or in zone anticipation

2. Tackling technique. He packs a lot of punch for his size, but he's inclined to hit high for the knock down rather than wrap up, which is not a good look for the NFL, but not an unusual technique issue coming out of college.

He fit's certain Thompson qualifications:

- 6', 200 lbs.; meets Thompson minimum requirements
- very good athletic measurables which Thompson likes in upper round picks
- there's that versatility again
- Pac 12 ;)
- smart, a student of the game:

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Unfortunately, he wasn't much of a HS basketball player, I've singled him out for attention, and I haven't liked any of Thompson's first rounders since Sherrod, so you can scratch Awuzie off the list. :tdown:
 
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brandon2348

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Assuming that Lattimore, Conley, and Humphrey are gone by the time the 29th pick rolls around, there are two guys that I continually circle back to: Kevin King (Washington) and Chidobe Awuzie (Colorado).

King has a case to be the best overall athlete in this class. He's in the 99th% in sparq and his individual drill numbers were off the charts. His height, weight, arm length, and hand size are all in the 72nd% or larger. His forty is in the 72nd%, his vertical in the 88th%, his long shuttle in the 86th%, his short shuttle in the 96th%, and his three cone in the 96th%. He's such a rare athlete that he really doesn't have a good comp historically. I've never seen someone this big, this fast, and this fluid.

When looking through the box scores of cornerbacks, I look for PBU's and INT's to see how often they got their hand on the ball. In 2016 he had 2 picks and 13 PBU's, for a total of 15 which is a great number. The ball skills show up on tape too.

When I watch him play, he demonstrates the speed and fluidity that you want to see. He has the length to press all day long, though he's overly aggressive. He can get beat off the line due to a lack of patience in his punch. But that's very correctable. And despite being tall, he's capable in the slot. I see absolutely no reason why he couldn't be the best corner in this class in two years when he's had a little more time to grow into his frame and has had NFL coaches clean up his technique at the line of scrimmage.

That then brings me to Chidobe Awuzie. While not being quite as rare an athlete as King, he's up there. 97th% in sparq, above average height and weight, while hitting 72nd% in forty, 96th% in broad, 68th% in 3C, and 54th% in short shuttle. His vertical was the only below average drill (31st%). But I should point out that he improved his vertical at his pro day from 34.5" to 39.5", which is in the 88th%. Sometimes I don't trust vastly improved forties at pro days, but it would be hard to cheat a vertical jump so I think that pro day number is safe.

As far as getting his hands on passes, he had 1 pick and 12 PBU's in 2016. He had 2 picks and 7 PBU's in 2015.

On tape, he's a fluid man corner who stays in phase with receivers. He plays both inside and out. He has the size and physicality to deal with bigger receivers, and the quickness to deal with smaller slots. He's a dangerous blitzer from the slot and a good run defender. He has the total skill set to be a souped up version of Micah Hyde in that CB/S/Nickel role, but also has all the athleticism you want as a pure outside corner. Coaches will need to work on his technique downfield in terms of playing the ball and not the receiver. He gets too handsy and some of it that he got by with in college won't fly in the pros.

Give me either of these guys or one of the rare athletes at OLB (Watt, Bowser, or Willis) and I'll be happy.

Fabian Moreau has the skill set to translate to being the best "cover guy" which fits the Packers scheme and how you keep overlooking Charles Harris to get to Watt, Bowser and Willis is beyond me.

Work out warriors are great but we're still talking about playing football here. If it came down to the 3 you seem to like I would take Willis as he has the best tape.
 

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