A Note About the Competition

[HardRightEdge]

There you are wrong for I once dated a girl from Minnesota and her "two best assets" were anything but fake.

He will be here all week folks!

http://instantrimshot.com/

 

[Poppa San]

...
I would also note that Crosby's "big leg" seems a bit overstated. I believe that perception is a hangover from his college days at Colorado kicking at altitude. He regularly appears at the bottom of the annual touchback % ranking.

Wasn't this a discussion last year when Masthay was kicking off, maybe in preseason? Masthay had a longer distance but, IIRC, MM went with Crosby for his placement on the kickoff plus his onside kicks. MM & Slocum wanted the other team to field it and try to return to the 20 instead of an automatic start at the 20.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Wasn't this a discussion last year when Masthay was kicking off, maybe in preseason? Masthay had a longer distance but, IIRC, MM went with Crosby for his placement on the kickoff plus his onside kicks. MM & Slocum wanted the other team to field it and try to return to the 20 instead of an automatic start at the 20.

The first part is right...Crosby for positioning and the on-side kicks over Masthay for distance. I don't think it was about being greedy for inside-the-20 opportunities, though. I think any coach would be happy with the 20 on any kick.

The problem was more along the lines of setting up for a right side kick and Masthay hammering it left, for example, thereby messing with the coverage. This is a particular issue if the kick is under 5 yds. deep (or more if it's a line drive), the returner is decent or better, and everybody is keyed to flowing to the other side of the field.

And you couldn't bring Crosby out just for on-side kicks because of the obvious give-away...he has to be out there all the time to maintain the element of surprise when it's needed.

In any event, the Packers kick coverage teams this year are the best I can recall in recent years KO-returns-against are running at a 21.5 yd. average, ranking the Packers 11th. best in the league at the moment.

 

[HardRightEdge]

When people talk about Crosby's big leg, they are usually referring to FG kicking. Crosby has hit quite a few long ones (last year he hit a 57 yarder in New York in mid-November). If we needed to hit a long FG at the end of a half or game, there aren't many kickers I would trust more to have the distance more than Crosby.

Carpenter just won a game with a 58 yarder in the closing seconds with room to spare.

 

[adambr2]

Wasn't this a discussion last year when Masthay was kicking off, maybe in preseason? Masthay had a longer distance but, IIRC, MM went with Crosby for his placement on the kickoff plus his onside kicks. MM & Slocum wanted the other team to field it and try to return to the 20 instead of an automatic start at the 20.

To me this is silly of them and over thinking. The average starting field position after a kickoff is the 22, you are automatically bettering that with a touchback. You're going to risk a momentum changing big return or a kickoff out of bounds for the marginal advantage of making them go 85 yards instead of 80? With our questionable coverage teams? Really? I'd like to know what the average starting field position is for opposing teams on our directional kickoffs, I'm guessing worse than the 22...my apologies to Slocum and MM if I'm wrong.

 

[Carl]

To me this is silly of them and over thinking. The average starting field position after a kickoff is the 22, you are automatically bettering that with a touchback. You're going to risk a momentum changing big return or a kickoff out of bounds for the marginal advantage of making them go 85 yards instead of 80? With our questionable coverage teams? Really? I'd like to know what the average starting field position is for opposing teams on our directional kickoffs, I'm guessing worse than the 22...my apologies to Slocum and MM if I'm wrong.

McCarthy is aggressive. He does things like that often. For example, he sometimes accepts offensive penalties after the Packers defense gets a third down stop. I assume it's to push the offense back further and trust the defense to not give up the penalty yardage.

Not saying whether I agree or disagree, just saying McCarthy's aggressive nature as a coach is an explanation for why they'd do those directional kicks.

Plus, late in the season with it cold, a touchback is no guarantee so a directional kick could be better.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I wasn't talking about Carpenter. You said that Crosby's big leg might be overstated. I responded. It had nothing to do with Carpenter.

If you do want to relate my comment to Carpenter, he hit his 58 yarder in a dome. A 57 yarder outside is more impressive. Crosby has hit 58 yarders in domes, and when Crosby hits those long kicks they usually have plenty of lag. Carpenter was pretty much maxed out at 58 yards in a dome. He also missed from 50 against Detroit, and he missed a 31 yarder against Miami. Crosby's only "miss" was a blocked 38 yarder. On top of that, Carpenter doesn't do kickoffs like Crosby does. Sticking with Crosby over Carpenter seems to be the right choice to me.

The point being, Carpenter's leg is equal to or better than Crosby's while the former is not usually in the conversation about the biggest legs. This is the golden age of kickers.

While there are some who struggle at 55, and few who struggle outside 50 that are prized for consistency and a record of making pressure kicks inside that mark, at least half the kickers are capable of going very long.

I'm not saying Crosby's been a bad FG kicker the past two seasons; it would be silly not to say he's been quite good.

However:

1) The reputation he has (or "had" might be more apt), of having the biggest leg in the league in his early seasons doesn't hold up, though you will hear it said from time to time out of habit. That's not so much because his leg is weaker; it's because the bar keeps getting raised, pardon the pun.

2) Crosby's been up and down his entire career, with seasons where his "swing" has ranged from a little off to way off.

3) And there's the touchback thing.

Since you focused on a few kicks this season, I'm reminded of one of Crosby's makes this year that was a line drive wounded duck that skimmed over the top of the helmets. Nobody remembers it because it slid through the uprights. At the time I'm sure more than few of us were concerned it might be an early sign of slippage again.

Crosby's yo-yo career presents an on-going risk.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Do you still really want to argue that Crosby doesn't have a strong leg or that it's overstated:

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

As for the touchback thing, Crosby plays at Lambeau, and the coaches do a lot of directional kicking. Is it any surprise that he would be lower on touchbacks? That's a completely separate issue from FG kicking anyways, and not an issue I value very highly with my FG kickers. On top of that, this isn't an argument for Carpenter speaking that he isn't even doing kickoffs. You are also conveniently ignoring how good Mason Crosby is on onside kick attempts. It's rare for him to not give the team an opportunity.

As for being up and down, sure, Crosby has been. Right now he's up and we'll have to see if he ever looks back. I think it's premature to say it will always be a problem.

As for not giving Crosby credit for on-side kick acumen, it was I who noted that point in his favor in this thread and you spit it back at me as your own. I should know by now that's just the kind of thing you do. I should stop right here, but my better judgement seems to have left me at the moment.

I did not say he doesn't have a strong leg. I said ranking him among the strongest is a mistake.

That kick has a lot of drama because it almost went through the uprights. But that kick is no different than any kicker having to call for a holder on a windy kickoff, and many can put it to the back of the end zone from the 40 under those circumstances. While it was a cold day, the flags on the goal post seem to indicate a favorable wind.

As usual you get the last word, providing you do not once again misrepresent for the umpteenth what I said.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Do you still really want to argue that Crosby doesn't have a strong leg or that it's overstated:

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

As for the touchback thing, Crosby plays at Lambeau, and the coaches do a lot of directional kicking. Is it any surprise that he would be lower on touchbacks? That's a completely separate issue from FG kicking anyways, and not an issue I value very highly with my FG kickers. On top of that, this isn't an argument for Carpenter speaking that he isn't even doing kickoffs. You are also conveniently ignoring how good Mason Crosby is on onside kick attempts. It's rare for him to not give the team an opportunity.

As for being up and down, sure, Crosby has been. Right now he's up and we'll have to see if he ever looks back. I think it's premature to say it will always be a problem.

As for not giving Crosby credit for on-side kick acumen, it was I who noted that point in his favor in this thread and you spit it back at me as your own. I should know by now that's just the kind of thing you do. I should stop right here, but my better judgement seems to have left me at the moment.

I did not say he doesn't have a strong leg. I said ranking him among the strongest is a mistake.

That kick has a lot of drama because it almost went through the uprights. But that kick is no different than any kicker having to call for a holder on a windy kickoff, and many can put it to the back of the end zone from the 40 under those circumstances. While it was a cold day, the flags on the goal post seem to indicate a favorable wind.

As usual you get the last word, providing you do not once again misrepresent for the umpteenth what I said.

 

[HardRightEdge]

You clearly didn't listen to it. The announcers even said it was an unfavorable wind, and the way the ball dies at the end seems to confirm that. Also, I said that you said a strong leg OR THAT HIS LEG IS OVERSTATED. As for saying that 68 yard free kick attempt is like kicking off, that's flat out wrong. Free kicks are held by a holder like a FG is. Kickoffs are kicked off of a tee. There is a huge difference.

I like how every time I expose your ridiculousness you claim that I'm misrepresenting you. It's your go-to safety net, but rarely, if ever, do you state what has actually been misrepresented.

I should have exercised my better judgement the first time.

 

[TJV]

... every time I expose your ridiculousness...

Quoted for irony.

(Homage to Einstein McFly.)

 

[HardRightEdge]

[Carpenter] also missed from 50 against Detroit...

An interesting postscript: As reported by the The Buffalo News, "Carpenter had a laser pointer shined into his eyes on that attempt. The Bills, who had a photo of it, alerted security and the problem was solved."

 

[longtimefan]

An interesting postscript: As reported by the The Buffalo News, "Carpenter had a laser pointer shined into his eyes on that attempt. The Bills, who had a photo of it, alerted security and the problem was solved."

Yeah heard about that last night..

 

[Dan115]

You should see my woman's legs.

 

[melvin2345]

Detroit....Detroit is the team to beat in our division. (This one is endlessly puked year after year lately) - NOT

Agreed. I'm cautiously optimistic, but I don't expect much. Just making it to the playoffs is like winning the super bowl for me.....

Quite frankly, my opinion is that the team to beat is the team that won the division the previous year. How can a team be "the team to beat", when they haven't done anything yet.

 

[NOMOFO]

Agreed. I'm cautiously optimistic, but I don't expect much. Just making it to the playoffs is like winning the super bowl for me.....

Quite frankly, my opinion is that the team to beat is the team that won the division the previous year. How can a team be "the team to beat", when they haven't done anything yet.

amen my friend. amen. That's what I'm saying.

It's like the Falcons. So they add a couple pieces and all of a sudden they are "the team to beat"? Nah...that Falcon "team" is still full of the very same guys that continually gag on their tongues.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I've heard every excuse in the book now. lol

I don't think a guy who made a game winning 58 yarder needs to make any excuses. If you believe it didn't happen that's your folly.

 

[HardRightEdge]

amen my friend. amen. That's what I'm saying.

It's like the Falcons. So they add a couple pieces and all of a sudden they are "the team to beat"? Nah...that Falcon "team" is still full of the very same guys that continually gag on their tongues.

There's a difference between the team to beat and a team to beat. Buffalo would be in the latter category, subject to upgrade as the season progresses. The only the teams are: (1) whoever the Packers play if and when a playoff berth hangs in the balance, (2) any playoff opponent and (3) Seattle at any time.

If you don't believe me, maybe Silverstein and Leroy Butler have more credibility with you. Note their closing comments in this week's "5 Questions".

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/

 

[OldSchool101]

He will be here all week folks!

Bravo! Bravo ! Clapping Enthusiastically. Encore! Encore!

 

[NOMOFO]

There's a difference between the team to beat an a team to beat. Buffalo would be in the latter category, subject to upgrade as the season progresses. The only the teams are: (1) whoever the Packers play if and when a playoff berth hangs in the balance, (2) any playoff opponent and (3) Seattle at any time.

If you don't believe me, maybe Silverstein and Leroy Butler have more credibility with you. Note their closing comments in this week's "5 Questions".

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/

Not following you. I tried... I'm just not following you. huh?

I love Leroy. One of my all time favorites. Met him. GREAT guy. ...but why would his opinion, or even less, silversteins, mean any more to anyone than the next tom, **** or hardrightedge on a topic like this? i'll never understand that. if it's an x's and o's topic...sure...I love to hear Leroy's take.

BTW...I'm really not sure what you were trying to say... but if you were suggesting Seattle is the best team in the NFL. I would agree.

 

[HardRightEdge]

...but why would his opinion, or even less, silversteins, mean any more to anyone than the next tom, **** or hardrightedge on a topic like this...

OK, then. With that line of thinking you would then put yourself in that category as well.

What I was "trying to say" was obvious...so I won't bother elaborating.

 

[HardRightEdge]

It wasn't obvious. I don't get it, either. I read it multiple times.

I'd expect no less.

OK, it was a discussion about buzz-worthy teams (like the Bills) and the habit of the media to cast them as the team to beat. They often turn out to be the flavor of the month and revert back to their pedigree.

There are no such teams, no the team to beat, except when the season is on the line, or when playing a defending champion still at the top of their game and one you have not been able to beat.

There are other teams that should be thought of as tough wins and the kind needed to build a playoff-contending record. Those are a team to beat.

Does that help?

 

[adambr2]

You clearly didn't listen to it. The announcers even said it was an unfavorable wind, and the way the ball dies at the end seems to confirm that. Also, I said that you said a strong leg OR THAT HIS LEG IS OVERSTATED. As for saying that 68 yard free kick attempt is like kicking off, that's flat out wrong. Free kicks are held by a holder like a FG is. Kickoffs are kicked off of a tee. There is a huge difference.

I like how every time I expose your ridiculousness you claim that I'm misrepresenting you. It's your go-to safety net, but rarely, if ever, do you state what has actually been misrepresented.

Not to speak for HRE but I think what he's saying is not so much that Crosby doesn't have a strong leg, but that "strong leg" has been essentially redefined in the NFL by the modern kicker to the point where Crosby is just one among many.

As mentioned, Carpenter hit a 58 yarder with ease, has hit from 60 in the past, and you've got guys like Janikowski, Akers, Tucker, Bryant, Feely, Bironas, and Zuerlein hitting from 60+.

Even guys like Gould, Dawson, Barth, Nugent, Walsh, Gano, and Scobee have hit from 55+ in the last few years.

Granted, there's a difference in kicking in poor weather and kicking in a dome, and I'd be curious to see a study on how much of a difference in makes. But kickers like Gould and Carpenter, and even some of the ones out east, deal with it during the late fall and winter months as well.

It's just that a strong leg is an expectation of the modern kicker, to some extent. You don't see much more these days of the guy who is money inside 43 but can't be trusted from 50+. Both power and accuracy are an expectation of today's kicker, not one or the other. So it's not that Crosby doesn't have a powerful leg IMO, just that it's not a skillset that is unique to him by any means.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Not to speak for HRE but I think what he's saying is not so much that Crosby doesn't have a strong leg, but that "strong leg" has been essentially redefined in the NFL by the modern kicker to the point where Crosby is just one among many.

As mentioned, Carpenter hit a 58 yarder with ease, has hit from 60 in the past, and you've got guys like Janikowski, Akers, Tucker, Bryant, Feely, Bironas, and Zuerlein hitting from 60+.

Even guys like Gould, Dawson, Barth, Nugent, Walsh, Gano, and Scobee have hit from 55+ in the last few years.

Granted, there's a difference in kicking in poor weather and kicking in a dome, and I'd be curious to see a study on how much of a difference in makes. But kickers like Gould and Carpenter, and even some of the ones out east, deal with it during the late fall and winter months as well.

It's just that a strong leg is an expectation of the modern kicker, to some extent. You don't see much more these days of the guy who is money inside 43 but can't be trusted from 50+. Both power and accuracy are an expectation of today's kicker, not one or the other. So it's not that Crosby doesn't have a powerful leg IMO, just that it's not a skillset that is unique to him by any means.

Well stated...a man with reading comprehension skills. To repeat, when Crosby came into the league he was heralded as something special in the distance department. That's not the case now.

On the matter of relevant variables in the FG game, there was a discussion along these lines in the 2013 off season where somebody posted an academic-like paper tracking FG success under different variables. I had a few issues with it, but my take away as I recall was that wind had little affect and temperature had little affect until it gets near freezing. Domes matter in December. It's been awhile, but I seem to recall the temp stats for Crosby over his career indicated he was more temperature-sensetive than the average with his success rate declining around 45 degrees...something like that.

The biggest variable according to that study, by a healthy margin, was altitude. Kicking in Denver yields the highest likelihood of success over any other single variable. That's why I mentioned Crosby's big leg reputation when he came in ("biggest" some said at the time) might have been artificially enhanced by playing college ball at Colorado. I believe there were also some conference teams at the time out in the high plains.

That study would probably be a hard get on a search of the forum. It's maybe buried in one those lengthy Crosby threads popular at the time. Maybe somebody saved a link and could post it.

 

[lambeaulambo]

Have you seen them play? "Scared" may not be the right word. "Concerned" might be more apt.

Words like "scared" and "panic" should be reserved for those with large monetary wagers they cannot afford to lose.

but Kyle Orton? COME OAAN MAN!!