a 5th rounder

[brandon2348]

It is actually quite different. You initially said that Rodgers has to play at that level "every single week." That's not true. There were several games last season where he did not. Which in no way means I don't think Rodgers is absolutey vital or the defense isn't lousy overall.

You also said the only thing you give TT credit for is WR's.

I can only read what you write. If you change your mind or mean something else, fine.

Fine. Let TT handle scouting for both WR's and O-Lineman. That should keep him busy.

 

[McKnowledge]

Which one is it?

Que?

 

[Sanguine camper]

TT's drafts can be evaluated by an objective method and in that way his draft and development philosophy that he uses almost without exception. In the NFL most starters last about 7 seasons. If you tale your starting 22 players and add in the punter kicker, nickel back and 3rd wr you have 26 quasi starters so a GM has to land nearly 4 starters per year along with good depth players. If you look at the roster of Super Bowl winners you usually have about 6 pro bowlers and 3 of which are HOF players. If you are going to go with draft and develop you need to hit 4 starters and nearly a pro bowler every year and hit that home run HOF every 2 to 3 years. That's a tall order for any one single approach. If you evaluate TT's drafts did he hit 4 starters and a pro bowler in those years when he didn't sign a Woodson or Pickett and skipped FA or trades? If yes, then he had a good draft, If not, he didn't do what it takes to build a Super Bowl winner.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I understand that Aaron Rodgers being Aaron Rodgers is the biggest thing GB has going, but this is another argument I see all the time that just isn't true. The defense was bad on the balance of the entire season, but they held opponents under 20 six times. So obviously Rodgers didn't have to set the world on fire every week to win.

None of the opponents the Packers defense held to under 20 points finished within the top 15 scoring offenses last season though with four of the six teams ranking 23rd or worse. On the other side Capers' unit played seven games against top 15 scoring offenses in 2016 and allowed an average of 36.9 (!!!) points in those contests.

It has been an ongoing theme with the Packers defense for several years that they play excellent vs. below average opponents but struggle mightily against better ones. Unfortunately teams don't face a huge number of mediocre offenses in the playoffs.

Ok, but this is something entirely different from Rodgers having to play at a "Michael Jordan" level every week to win.

As I've posted above Rodgers has to perform at a "Michael Jordan" level to defeat teams with above average offenses every single game for the Packers to have a chance beating those opponents.

 

[sschind]

Not that it matters but apparently Tolzein (he's the only one I can think of) would have gained them a 7th round pick according to the formula but they only award 32 picks and he was just outside that. He had the numbers there were just too many in front of him.

 

[brandon2348]

I understand that Aaron Rodgers being Aaron Rodgers is the biggest thing GB has going,

Also, Aaron Rodgers is the best thing the NFL has going.

I know you like to get selective on "words"

 

[Half Empty]

Several of these had/have decent careers, just not always in GB. Some lost out to injuries.
Coston Started 7 games over three years
Hawkins <a href="https://www.packerforum.com/threads/cb-mike-hawkins-released.6408/#post-97595">CB Mike Hawkins Released</a>
Martin
Moll Career G-63 GS-22 https://www.packerforum.com/threads/tony-moll-steps-in-at-right-tackle-shuts-down-pass-rush.7549/
Clowney Had a 4 year career with the Jets on special teams
Giacomini Full time starter 3 of the past 5 seasons. http://www.nfl.com/player/brenogiacomini/758/profile
Johnson 5 year career as a blocking fullback. Couldn't beat out Kuhn here.
Meredith 9 year career isn't a whiff http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MereJa20.htm
Newhouse Still a spot starter with a playoff team
Quarless 6 year career most likely ended with a knee injury which slowed a slow player
---
The rest have either no defense or no track record:
Williams, Manning, Boyd, Abbrederis, Hundley, Davis
5th round picks are very rarely diamonds; more often special teamers or jags. Looks like TT should stick to OL in the 5th round though. His picks there at least become journeymen if not better.

Always subjective, especially for linemen. However, in the context of my reason for listing them, I'm fine with your list, and especially the end-of-post evaluation. This started with someone naming TT's two real 5th round winners and leaving that as evidence of his drafting acumen. Two good ones and 16 that can be debated doesn't seem so far away from my "blind pig" statement. An aside, but hard not to put in here - if we grant that those you identified as having 'decent carrers, just not always in GB', does that open another side of the GM argument, why were they released?

 

[Dantés]

None of the opponents the Packers defense held to under 20 points finished within the top 15 scoring offenses last season though with four of the six teams ranking 23rd or worse. On the other side Capers' unit played seven games against top 15 scoring offenses in 2016 and allowed an average of 36.9 (!!!) points in those contests.

It has been an ongoing theme with the Packers defense for several years that they play excellent vs. below average opponents but struggle mightily against better ones. Unfortunately teams don't face a huge number of mediocre offenses in the playoffs.



As I've posted above Rodgers has to perform at a "Michael Jordan" level to defeat teams with above average offenses every single game for the Packers to have a chance beating those opponents.

I actually broke down the numbers and demonstrated that trend at length the other day. But not the same as having to score 30 and play out of his mind to win each and every week. Not by a long shot.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

All fine. But not the same as having to score 30 and play out of his mind to win each and every week. Not by a long shot.

It's true Rodgers doesn't have to play out of his mind every single week but unfortunately he has to in the most important games during the playoffs once the Packers face elite offenses themselves.

 

[Dantés]

It's true Rodgers doesn't have to play out of his mind every single week but unfortunately he has to in the most important games during the playoffs once the Packers face elite offenses themselves.

So far in this thread alone, I've read that Rodgers has to score 30 every week, that TT is now tied for being the worst drafting GM in the league, and that he should only scout WR's and maybe OL. There is obviously a much more extreme agenda at play than simply pointing out the obvious that there is a ton on Rodgers' shoulders against good offenses and in most playoff games.

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

Unfortunately Thompson drafting slightly above the league average isn't good enough because of his reluctancy to use other methods to improve the roster.

It's tough to win a fight with one hand (i.e. free agency) tied behind your back.

 

[brandon2348]

So far in this thread alone, I've read that Rodgers has to score 30 every week, that TT is now tied for being the worst drafting GM in the league, and that he should only scout WR's and maybe OL. There is obviously a much more extreme agenda at play than simply pointing out the obvious that there is a ton on Rodgers' shoulders against good offenses and in most playoff games.

Pointing out the obvious would be the defense ranked dead last in pass defense and with another one of his good old "draft and develop campaigns" and "sit on his hands in FA" its gonna get worse next year with this current collection of dog **** on defense. There gonna need to score a ton of points.

Thats the obvious.

 

[brandon2348]

My god.

When are people gonna finally wake up and figure out that drafting a bunch of nice guys and smart guys and finesse guys and then trying to insert them imto a complex Capers scheme just isnt gonna work?

Has everyone not had enough.

 

[rodell330]

My god.

When are people gonna finally wake up and figure out that drafting a bunch of nice guys and smart guys and finesse guys and then trying to insert them imto a complex Capers scheme just isnt gonna work?

Has everyone not had enough.

Apparently these Teddy lovers haven't. They've become so use to mediocracy they've become blinded by the fact that TT is the biggest problem the Packers have.

 

[Dantés]

We all just need to wake up and say ridiculous and untrue things. That's when you know you've seen the light!

What people often over look is that ignoring reality to skew entirely negative is no different than being a total blind homer. It's just the reverse. It's no closer to reality.

But it's funny that saying TT has problems and needs to be replaced if he won't fix them, but that he has done a lot of good things gets you labeled a "Teddy Lover." Basically if you don't except untrue criticisms of him, you're apparently just a sell out for the guy. It's a great bit.

 

[brandon2348]

I'm very familar with the "reality". The reality is no Super Bowl since 2010. Amother season of **** poor defense. Another round of drafting "spare parts" to fit some science experimemt defense. Another year of "sitting on the sidelines" during free agency and rolling cap space over that never seems to get us anywhere.

What am I missing or stating that is untrue in my reality?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm very familar with the "reality". The reality is no Super Bowl since 2010. Amother season of **** poor defense. Another round of drafting "spare parts" to fit some science experimemt defense. Another year of "sitting on the sidelines" during free agency and rolling cap space over that never seems to get us anywhere.

What am I missing or stating that is untrue in my reality?

Sounds like a picture painted by a doom and gloom pissed off fan, more than that of the reality of a 32 team league?

Nobody can change your expectations and if nothing but a Super Bowl falls short of those expectations, then you may need to examine the reality of your expectations or at least accept, they will be crushed most years. The 6 years since the Packers last SB hasn't been all that bad for me. 2 NFCCG's, playoffs, some highs and lows, can't think of many other teams I would want to be a fan of.

Would I like more SB trips/wins? Sure, but the reality is, getting there and being in a realistic position every year to have a shot at getting there, isn't as simple as some want to make it appear to be.

 

[Dantés]

I'm very familar with the "reality". The reality is no Super Bowl since 2010. Amother season of **** poor defense. Another round of drafting "spare parts" to fit some science experimemt defense. Another year of "sitting on the sidelines" during free agency and rolling cap space over that never seems to get us anywhere.

What am I missing or stating that is untrue in my reality?

You are entitled to your opinion, which seems to be that Thompson holds this team back. I don't necessarily agree with all aspects of that opinion (though I definitely agree with the FA thing), but I get it. And even if I didn't get it, who cares? It's your opinion.

But the fact is that some truly ridiculous and/or false things have been said about TT in defense of that opinion. For instance, that the team he's built requires Rodgers to score 30 every week to win, that he is equally as bad as the worst drafting GM's in football, that he should be restricted to only scouting WR's, etc.

You are every bit as entitled to say those false things, but I am also entitled to point out that they're untrue. And I would add that your opinions are generally more compelling when you support them by saying true things.

 

[brandon2348]

Sounds like a picture painted by a doom and gloom pissed off fan, more that the reality of a 32 team league?

Nobody can change your expectations and if nothing but a Super Bowl falls short of those expectations, then you may need to examine the reality of your expectations or at least accept, they will be crushed most years. The 6 years since the Packers last SB hasn't been all that bad for me. 2 NFCCG's, playoffs, some highs and lows, can't think of many other teams I would want to be a fan of.

Would I like more SB trips/wins? Sure, but the reality is, getting there and being in a realistic position every year to have a shot at getting there, isn't as simple as some want to make it appear to be.

i
I am pissed. Game tickets and flying around sometimes along with apparal things aren't cheap. I've been on this forum for awhile and have been called a homer so many times i cant count. I was saying these guys werent out of it when they were 4-6 so wouldnt consider myself a doom and gloomer.

I would be fine with all that if this team didnt have a QB like Aaron Rodgers. I mean am in a Cleveland Brown forum? MM and company get up there all the time and bandstand about the "expectations" and such. Maybe they should just shut there mouths?

I got a better idea. Ted Thompson needs to take his self righteous *** and step down and Take Dom Capers and his Mickey Mouse defense with him.

 

[brandon2348]

You are entitled to your opinion, which seems to be that Thompson holds this team back. I don't necessarily agree with all aspects of that opinion (though I definitely agree with the FA thing), but I get it. And even if I didn't get it, who cares? It's your opinion.

But the fact is that some truly ridiculous and/or false things have been said about TT in defense of that opinion. For instance, that the team he's built requires Rodgers to score 30 every week to win, that he is equally as bad as the worst drafting GM's in football, that he should be restricted to only scouting WR's, etc.

You are every bit as entitled to say those false things, but I am also entitled to point out that they're untrue. And I would add that your opinions are generally more compelling when you support them by saying true things.

Thats fine. Aaron Rodgers will be 34 this year so this puppy will be over soon enough and then everyone can talk about the "Legacy of TT". What a joke. More like the "Legacy of stubburnes"

People are gonna look back and see such a waste.

 

[Dantés]

If TT retired today, my strong suspicion is that his legacy with most football people would be a very great career with some missed opportunities. Somehow I can't see the 4th most wins in the league, a winning record in the PO's, and a championship over a 12 year tenure wouldn't be mocked as total garbage by those with some perspective.

 

[brandon2348]

If TT retired today, my strong suspicion is that his legacy with most football people would be a very great career with some missed opportunities. Somehow I can't see the 4th most wins in the league, a winning record in the PO's, and a championship over a 12 year tenure wouldn't be mocked as total garbage by those with some perspective.

Because of who? Because of some elite defense? Because of the best coaching around? Because of aquiring the best talent?

Its because of Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers. Two back to back first ballot HOF QB's. He should of have more wins and more Championships.

Look, TT had a nice run and had his chance to cement "greatness". He was too stubborn and as this thing gets worse that is probably what he will be remembered for as he should be.

He needs to step down and quite holding the Packers hostage and allow them to put a regime in place to give them a better chance to maximize whats left of Rodgers career.

 

[HardRightEdge]

The Packers only received a fifth rounder because Hayward signed a pretty moderate contract with the Chargers.

Although the NFL has never revealed the methodology, it is believed there are 3 primary factors, as follows, in descending order of importance:

1) Average annual salary in the new contract. This seems to be the overriding factor.
2) Playing time with the new team. Whether that's simply games played or snap count, who knows.
3) Post season awards. This seems to be merely a minor consideration. Hayward is one example.

Here's more than you'd ever want to know about this matter:

https://overthecap.com/the-basics-and-methodology-of-projecting-the-nfls-compensatory-draft-picks/

Anybody else remember AdamJT13? He was quite accurate in his projections.

 

[Dantés]

Because of who? Because of some elite defense? Because of the best coaching around? Because of aquiring the best talent?

Its because of Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers. Two back to back first ballot HOF QB's. He should of have more wins and more Championships.

Look, TT had a nice run and had his chance to cement "greatness". He was too stubborn and as this thing gets worse that is probably what he will be remembered for as he should be.

He needs to step down and quite holding the Packers hostage and allow them to put a regime in place to give them a better chance to maximize whats left of Rodgers career.

How do you remember Ron Wolf's run with the Packers?

 

[brandon2348]

How do you remember Ron Wolf's run with the Packers?

I grew up watching Lynn ****ey and I was younger and didnt follow the team to the depth I do now as I was playing football myself but Wolf started the whole thing and took us out of purgatory. Got Favre and made some big moves getting Reggie White obviously and used free agency much more there with Holmgren bringing guys in. When Holmgren left things changed a bit. The money situation was obviously different back then and Wolf was battling a whole different set of cirumstances then Thompson. TT hasnt had to deal with all the challenges Wolf did.

Wolf would tell ya he left super bowls on the table with Favre.