2019 Packer Roster / Practice Squad Changes

[JohnnyBlood]

I’ve seen people mention quite a bit about $4M for Hoyer, but not much about the guarantees. Of the 12 Million, $7 M was guaranteed at signing and another $2 M guaranteed next year against injury. That’s pretty steep for a backup IMO.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...-brian-hoyers-brain-as-much-as-for-his-brawn/

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I’ve seen people mention quite a bit about $4M for Hoyer, but not much about the guarantees. Of the 12 Million, $7 M was guaranteed at signing and another $2 M guaranteed next year against injury. That’s pretty steep for a backup IMO.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...-brian-hoyers-brain-as-much-as-for-his-brawn/

Actually, I think the title sums it up pretty well. You aren't just getting an experienced player as insurance, you are getting a guy who is going to come in and possibly make your team and younger QB(s) better, by teaching them everything he knows, on and off the field.

Also, $4M sounds like a lot of money to us "normal folk", its really a drop in the bucket IMO in the grand scheme of the NFL.

Finally, we are seeing what it took for the Colts to sign him, maybe the Packers could have signed him for less (or more of course).

 

[OldSchool101]

$4M/yr is minuscule for a QB contract that’s ending in the 2021 season. Yes even for a backup. It’s a tiny fraction of the total cap allocated each season.

Its also by far the most important position so it should be the highest paid veteran backup position behind the veteran starters.

I’d love to have Hoyer for 4M annual.

 

[greengold]

Patriots tried to trade Hoyer. 9 teams in 10 seasons? Never once was traded. Cut 6 times.

 

[HardRightEdge]

That puts pressure on Lazard to make something happen. He'll be credited with his 2nd year after this so next time around if he doesn't stick he'll be looking for a spot on someone else's active roster most likely. ESB going down and Moore getting cut makes it a lot easier though.

Teams can have up to four players on the practice squad who have two accrued seasons. The other six players are limited to one accrued season. An accrued season is defined as six games on a 53 man roster, PUP or IR. Lazard has no accrued seasons to this point.

Further, a player is limited to three seasons on practice squads. A practice squad season is also defined as 6 games. Lazard was on the Jag's PS from the beginning of last season until the Packers signed him last December. He has one PS season.

If Lazard manages to stay on the 53 man roster this season for six games or more he'd still have two seasons of PS eligibilty. A couple of guys are going to have to get injured or he'll have to beat out guys over the course of the season to even see the field. The more likely scenario is injuries occur at one of the other position groups, the Packer have to sign a guy as a replacement, and Lazard is LIFO, last-in-first-out.

Beware of links like the following that quote the CBA:

https://seahawkswire.usatoday.com/2019/09/01/2019-nfl-practice-squad-rules-and-eligibility/

That link does not accuratley represent the current rules. The PS eligibility rules have been modified a couple of times since the 2011 CBA by mutual agreement between the NFL and NFLPA.

The following link accurately reflects the current rules:

https://saintswire.usatoday.com/2019/09/01/nfl-practice-squad-rules-eligibility-waiver-claims/

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

Teams can have up to four players on the practice squad who have two accrued seasons. The other six players are limited to one accrued season. An accrued season is defined as six games on a 53 man roster, PUP or IR. Lazard has no accrued seasons to this point.

Further, a player is limited to three seasons on practice squads. A practice squad season is also defined as 6 games. Lazard was on the Jag's PS from the beginning of last season until the Packers signed him last December. He has one PS season.

If Lazard manages to stay on the 53 man roster this season for six games or more he'd still have two seasons of PS eligibilty. A couple of guys are going to have to get injured or he'll have to beat out guys over the course of the season to even see the field. The more likely scenario is injuries occur at one of the other position groups, the Packer have to sign a guy as a replacement, and Lazard is LIFO, last-in-first-out.

Beware of links like the following that quote the CBA:

https://seahawkswire.usatoday.com/2019/09/01/2019-nfl-practice-squad-rules-and-eligibility/

That link does not accuratley represent the current rules. The PS eligibility rules have been modified a couple of times since the 2011 CBA by mutual agreement between the NFL and NFLPA.

The following link accurately reflects the current rules:

https://saintswire.usatoday.com/2019/09/01/nfl-practice-squad-rules-eligibility-waiver-claims/

Appreciate the correction. I had seen some inconsistencies with the sites so I went with what I thought was the most reliable on BR. However, I think we both agree that his window of opportunity is small. Gute isn't going to wait around for three season for him to put up numbers. I estimate that Gute will largely determine where he will draft a WR based on the performance of this group, and right now my estimate is Round 2. He took a page out of TT's book with drafting 3 like he did to address the RB position, and 1 is already out the door. ESB's injury isn't too concerning, but 6 targets that equaled 1 catch for 7 yards is. Without a big season from MVS, Gute may have to go back to the well one more time, and this time he's going to hit high as this is the Draft to get a big time WR.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Appreciate the correction. I had seen some inconsistencies with the sites so I went with what I thought was the most reliable on BR. However, I think we both agree that his window of opportunity is small. Gute isn't going to wait around for three season for him to put up numbers. I estimate that Gute will largely determine where he will draft a WR based on the performance of this group, and right now my estimate is Round 2. He took a page out of TT's book with drafting 3 like he did to address the RB position, and 1 is already out the door. ESB's injury isn't too concerning, but 6 targets that equaled 1 catch for 7 yards is. Without a big season from MVS, Gute may have to go back to the well one more time, and this time he's going to hit high as this is the Draft to get a big time WR.

Not sure why you are getting too concerned about ESB's preseason numbers. He had pretty decent numbers his rookie year in limited action.

21 catches on 36 targets
328 yards
15.6 ave/catch

I think more of a concern with ESB, is if he will be back as a Packer in 2020? The Packers put him on IR before the Final 53, so he can't come back and play for the Packers this season. However, if his injury heals and he petitions to be released to sign with another team, I do believe the Packers have to let him go.

As far as predicting what we will need at WR next draft, we could need all new WR's or none, just never know until the season is done.

 

[greengold]

Thanks HardRightEdge! Solid.

Pokerbrat2000, I agree on ESB's numbers and how they must have forecast his progression for this season prior to injury. Sounds like Rodgers really liked his development too. Showed well in STs too preseason.

Next season, yeah, who knows (?), but I have confidence this will be a very special and effective WR group throughout this season. Incredibly deep in dynamic talent. Add to that, Rodgers sounds like he really likes all of them. This could be big. What a switch from last season...

 

[HardRightEdge]

However, I think we both agree that his window of opportunity is small. Gute isn't going to wait around for three season for him to put up numbers. I estimate that Gute will largely determine where he will draft a WR based on the performance of this group, and right now my estimate is Round 2.

I would not be surprised if Lazard was back on the practice squad at some point this season, signed to a futures contact at the end of the season, and back in camp next year. Injuries might dictate otherwise.

I have no idea if or where Gutekunst will draft a WR in 2020. Too many variables, too much football, between now and then.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

You're right, there is too much football ahead of us to determine that. But mark my words, We're going 2nd Round for a WR, unless I change my prediction otherwise based on the performance of this current receiving corps.

 

[El Guapo]

Actually, I think the title sums it up pretty well. You aren't just getting an experienced player as insurance, you are getting a guy who is going to come in and possibly make your team and younger QB(s) better, by teaching them everything he knows, on and off the field.

I think that the best backup QB is a high-IQ, lesser-talent guy who has to focus on the mechanics and details to overcome his lack of elite skills. Those are the guys that make the starter better. He may be the guy telling Favre what the nickel means, or pointing out something to Rodgers that he didn't notice in the film session. The students of the game make a difference. Of course, you've got to hope that they never play!

Besides the production of Boyle in the preseason, I think that's what also set him apart from Kizer. Kizer was a talent but obviously not elite. Boyle can produce but he might be of more value in the classroom and on the scout team.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I would really like to know Gute's thought process when it came to ESB. He could have taken 3 routes with him.

1. Put him on IR before final 53 (this was what was done)
2. Put him on 53 and then IR him
3. Cut him and hope to get him on PS

Option 1 only temporary protects ESB. If he gets healthy before the end of the season, we probably lose him. It did allow the Packers to keep another guy, but Crawford didn't last long.

Option 2 protects him, but you loose a roster spot temporarily for another guy. But this would have allowed the Packers to immediately slide ESB to a more protected and usable IR situation and put another guy on the 53.

Option 3 is pretty self explanatory, but they may have lost him to another team.

I would have preferred option 2. I can think of at least 2 guys (Crawford and D. Williams) that I would have risked to have a more secure hold on ESB.

 

[GleefulGary]

Why does option 1 only temporarily protest EQSB?

He's still under contract. He can't play this year, but he's under contract yet. If they wanted to cut him, they would have. I just don't see how it temporarily protects him.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Why does option 1 only temporarily protest EQSB?

He's still under contract. He can't play this year, but he's under contract yet. If they wanted to cut him, they would have. I just don't see how it temporarily protects him.

If ESB becomes healthy enough to play during the season, he can petition to be released from the IR. The Packers would have no choice but to cut him. He is not allowed to play for the Packers again this season, but could potentially resign with them at a later date, if no other team claims/signs him.

Since the talk was that he would be back in 4-6 weeks after the injury, its hard to imagine him not being released at some point, unless the injury "just doesn't heal right".

This rule prevents teams from stashing players on IR before the final 53 with "injuries", that at some point in the season most likely will be healed. ESB's was deemed "major enough", to qualify him for IR.

Or at least this is how I understand IR, someone will correct me if I am wrong. There are also different effects on salary, as well as the cap, with how you IR a guy, but I won't try to explain that.

 

[GleefulGary]

If ESB becomes healthy enough to play during the season, he can petition to be released from the IR. The Packers would have no choice but to cut him. He is not allowed to play for the Packers again this season, but could potentially resign with them at a later date, if no other team claims/signs him.

Since the talk was that he would be back in 4-6 weeks after the injury, its hard to imagine him not being released at some point, unless the injury "just doesn't heal right".

This rule prevents teams from stashing players on IR before the final 53 with "injuries", that at some point in the season most likely will be healed. ESB's was deemed "major enough", to qualify him for IR.

Or at least this is how I understand IR, someone will correct me if I am wrong. There are also different effects on salary, as well as the cap, with how you IR a guy, but I won't try to explain that.

I would imagine they talked to EQSB and explained the situation to him. Or the injury was worse than what we know.

I'd say the chances he petitions to be released are somewhere between slim and none.

 

[mradtke66]

If ESB becomes healthy enough to play during the season, he can petition to be released from the IR. The Packers would have no choice but to cut him.

Again, that is not how IR works. Why do you think this?!

To get released from his contract he would need to file a grievance with the league (player association? PA files it on behalf of the player?)

The grievance would then be brought before a mediator (or however the CBA dictates this)

EQ would then have to argue he had been placed on IR improperly. Ie, a 2 week hang-nail isn't worthy of IR.

He then has to win his argument.

Then and only then would the Packers be forced to cut him.

A high ankle sprain with a 4-6 recovery time sounds pretty proper.

If that is prognosis is inaccurate, you'd expect him to be healthy and filing within the week. If he can't pass a physical by week 4, sounds again, like proper use of IR.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Again, that is not how IR works. Why do you think this?!

To get released from his contract he would need to file a grievance with the league (player association? PA files it on behalf of the player?)

The grievance would then be brought before a mediator (or however the CBA dictates this)

EQ would then have to argue he had been placed on IR improperly. Ie, a 2 week hang-nail isn't worthy of IR.

He then has to win his argument.

Then and only then would the Packers be forced to cut him.

A high ankle sprain with a 4-6 recovery time sounds pretty proper.

If that is prognosis is inaccurate, you'd expect him to be healthy and filing within the week. If he can't pass a physical by week 4, sounds again, like proper use of IR.

Glad you are so sure of yourself, because I am still not. Seems like all sorts of explanations out there and they all tend to differ a bit. One thing that is becoming clear is that it has to be a "6 week or more type of injury" to be placed on IR. Which I am sure is why they say "4-6 weeks". Now if ESB is running around and ready to play after 3-5 weeks, its unclear to me if he could file a grievance. Guessing he could, its just whether he would want to and then whether he would win it or not.

What I am still confused about is how this is monitored and why a player isn't allowed to "work" again if he is healthy in week 7? Obviously, he is getting paid (1/17th of his salary during each week of the season), but I imagine he loses any incentive pay provisions of his contract.

Anyway, still researching, still about as clear as mud.

 

[mradtke66]

What I am still confused about is how this is monitored and why a player isn't allowed to "work" again if he is healthy in week 7? Obviously, he is getting paid (1/17th of his salary during each week of the season), but I imagine he loses any incentive pay provisions of his contract.

He is allowed to work, within reason.

He can rehab. Attend meetings.

He cannot practice. He cannot play in games.

He also gets the benefit, to have the team pay for surgery, treatment, and recovery.

How exactly honoring IR is monitored, I don't know. I do know if a team allows a player to practice that is on IR, they ( the team ) could be fined, lose draft picks, have a coach and/or GM suspended, etc. Basically look at the Saints, Pats, and Seahawks have been smacked with for breaking the rules and/or CBA.

Obviously, the league doesn't want teams stashing players on IR needlessly. So part of what you give up by stashing a player is a year. There's a year of contract gone. You don't get him back, he's a year closer to FA, etc etc.

You are also correct that he's losing incentive bonuses, but I don't believe he has any. From what I can tell, he signed a 2.5 million, 4 year contract. 115k signing bonus. Nothing else.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

You are also correct that he's losing incentive bonuses, but I don't believe he has any. From what I can tell, he signed a 2.5 million, 4 year contract. 115k signing bonus. Nothing else.

I think you are right in the case of ESB not losing any part of his pay, but could effect players with incentive laden contracts. From what I have read, its been something that the NFLPA has complained about, keeping healthy players from working in a Sport that has a limited time frame, as well as not being able to improve their market value by doing so.

I hope your interpretation is correct, as well as ESB wanting to stick with the Packers, because I would hate to loose him just because Gute put him on IR before the 53.

 

[mradtke66]

its been something that the NFLPA has complained about, keeping healthy players from working in a Sport that has a limited time frame, as well as not being able to improve their market value by doing so.

Perhaps, but I don't see an ideal way around it. Without the current IR structure, what other outcomes do we have?

1. Player gets hurt, he gets cut. Nevermind that he needs reconstructive ACL surgery. He's on his own!

2. Star player, 2 years into his contract, gets injured. He's healthy after 8 weeks. Team is forced to cut him. HELLLLLOO accelerated cap hit for the remaining 3 years.

3. Disgruntled players potentially attempting to get put on IR so they can be cut.

The current system isn't perfect, but it's a fairly reasonably compromise.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Perhaps, but I don't see an ideal way around it. Without the current IR structure, what other outcomes do we have?

1. Player gets hurt, he gets cut. Nevermind that he needs reconstructive ACL surgery. He's on his own!

2. Star player, 2 years into his contract, gets injured. He's healthy after 8 weeks. Team is forced to cut him. HELLLLLOO accelerated cap hit for the remaining 3 years.

3. Disgruntled players potentially attempting to get put on IR so they can be cut.

The current system isn't perfect, but it's a fairly reasonably compromise.

All good points. Like I said, I really wasn't digging deep into all of the nuances of the IR, more the technical aspects of what happens when a player is no longer injured.

Thanks for all of the information, I think I understand it much better now. All that said, it was probably a blessing in disguise for the Packers that ESB was injured. With Shepherd and Lazard stepping up their games, it pretty much allowed the Packers to stash another young WR with an upside, for another year.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

Raven Greene on IR, who gets the start in his place? I see we claimed CB Tremon Smith on waivers which I find odd seeing that we already have Ento on the PS. Maybe Ento is still hurt?

Smith produced 15 interceptions and 53 pass breakups over four years at Central Arkansas, and the Chiefs made him a sixth-round pick in 2018. He played in 14 games as a rookie, tallying five tackles and a pass breakup while also returning 33 kicks for 866 yards (26.8 yards/return). Three of his 33 returns gained over 40 yards, including a 97-yard return against the New England Patriots last October.

Not only did the Chiefs use him at cornerback and kick returner, but he also was one of the team’s top gunners on special teams, and they were experimenting with Smith as a running back during training camp this summer.

Smith (6-0, 190) ran the 40-yard dash in under 4.4 seconds at his pro day before the 2018 draft. In fact, Tyreek Hill once said Smith was the fastest player on the Chiefs roster.

Draft Projection
Rounds 4-5

NFL Comparison
Ron Brooks

Overview
Extremely confident and extremely greedy as an on-ball defender, Smith was asked to play the role of island defender and did so at a high level. While he faced a lower level of competition, he possesses the size, speed, athletic ability and instincts that should be able to translate to the league. Smith has the potential to fight for either an outside or slot role, but he'll need to play with better discipline in order to avoid penalties and big plays.

Strengths

• Former all-state, quarterback with a feel for the quarterback's intentions
• Highly competitive and confident
• Uses well-timed jabs from press to disrupt receiver's release
• Quick backpedal to match early stages of route
• Exceptional long speed carrying a 4.3 40-yard dash time to his name
• Matches deep route and gets head around early to find ball flight
• Baseball background shows up with ball tracking and high-pointing
• Believes every football is his
• Quick to crowd the catch with good burst to close on throws
• Outstanding ball production with 53 career passes defensed and 15 interceptions
• Utilizes half-man coverage approach for greater access into passing lane to disrupt throws
• Offers punt return potential that could raise his stock a round
• Not a heavy hitter, but a willing tackler with adequate toughness in run support.

Weaknesses

• Defaults to high side of the right allowing for easier separation on comebacks
• Has tendency to lunge to maintain feel for the route
• Forward momentum slows transitions when planting and driving forward on the throw
• Chance-taker who loses discipline in coverage at times
• Double moves and multi-break routes cause him trouble
• Wraps arm around receiver's waist when attacking the passing lane
• Mauls top of routes and could face early penalty trouble
• Tendency to undercut deep routes and play dangerous game of jump ball.

Sources Tell Us

"He's going on Day 3. I was hoping he wouldn't kill it at his pro day so we could sneak him in as a seventh. No chance he lasts that long now with how he ran and all that production." -- AFC Regional Scout(Chiefs Maybe?)

 

[Dantés]

Raven Greene on IR, who gets the start in his place? I see we claimed CB Tremon Smith on waivers which I find odd seeing that we already have Ento on the PS. Maybe Ento is still hurt?

Smith was likely claimed for ST work.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

Yea I just noticed he was great as a gunner for KC. I wonder who plays Greene's role though? Summers? Goodson? Trade pending?

 

[GleefulGary]

Yea I just noticed he was great as a gunner for KC. I wonder who plays Greene's role though? Summers? Goodson? Trade pending?

Amos or Redmond.