2019 Packer Roster / Practice Squad Changes

[greengold]

How did I "mischaracterize" your statements? You said sometimes you make your own luck and then pull out one of the most extreme examples, Tom Brady, to try and prove your point. Like I said, if you want to frame Boyle being our #2 in the same light as Brady was for the Patriots, I am not going to try and change your mind. But I am sticking to my opinion that the Packers will need a lot of luck if Boyle is pressed into full time duty and I am basing that opinion on "the norm" of what has happened in the history of the NFL and very recently with 2 QB's who were both regarded as better QB's coming out of college than Boyle was.

Don't be offended because I didn't agree with your point of view or the rationale of how you arrived to it.

Own your words. I try to choose mine carefully.

"Sure, anything can happen, but if you want to rely on the luck of having an UDFA second year QB out of an FCS school, coming in and playing..."

Whatever. Relying on luck is a complete reversal of my message.

Bigger point is how other teams are better at finding talent than others.

I chose Brady because it was easy. WTF dude? The NFL is littered with the most unlikely backup QBs who won Super Bowls.

Kurt Warner, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Jim Plunkett, and most recently Nick Foles...

You don't have to ride into the season with TOP talents at every position, backups included. That's fine that you think the Packers would need a lot of luck if Boyle gets pressed into duty (and you intimated I was referring to Boyle, when I was not, more thinking of Wilkins). I disagree. Enjoy your day.

 

[gopkrs]

Kurt Warner was a Packer. Obviously he never even got a shot.

 

[lambeaulambo]

He's a special teams stud. At the bottom end of the roster is where those guys stay.
TT almost always had one of the youngest and least experienced rosters. How'd that work out when the injuries started piling up?

I wasn't speaking in terms of players, but coaches.

 

[Mondio]

It’s not a matter of them not being able to win no matter who is at number 2, it’s more of the difference between 9 million guaranteed or 800k probably doesn’t have a whole lot of difference between the odds of going anywhere. Hoyer has been with how many teams? 8? 9? He's played thru a quarter of the league already. Ironically enough, he was an UDFA He's had some minor success with the browns thru a stretch and a few games for the Patriots who have had a great team from top to bottom for a long time. He has come in and not won plenty as well, he couldn't stick with AZ, Houston, 9er's etc. You have confidence he'd go .500 if Rodgers went out, well there was a time he went 0-5 and was benched in favor of Rookie.

He's pretty expensive insurance for a guy that is just as likely to not make a difference as is. and he got 9 million guaranteed, 9 million. you should be thankful GB didn't touch that. If Cap considerations didn't hurt or matter like they do, he'd be a fine guy to have as a back up.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Super Bowl history is littered with the most unlikely winning QBs. Look at the most recent winner, Nick Foles. He isn't even on that same team!

Jim Plunkett
Joe Flacco
Trent Dilfer (that one to this day still gets me!)
Brad Johnson (I mean, wow)
Jeff Hostetler

Odd list IMO to try and make a case for "any QB with no NFL experience can win a SB".

Boyle could eventually become a decent QB who knows. Where I think our opinions completely differ is whether he is ready to be a solid QB now or maybe later down the road, which is what is was for all the QB's you listed.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

He's pretty expensive insurance for a guy that is just as likely to not make a difference as is. and he got 9 million guaranteed, 9 million. you should be thankful GB didn't touch that. If Cap considerations didn't hurt or matter like they do, he'd be a fine guy to have as a back up.

Football salaries aren't cheap and that $9M guaranteed is on a 3 year contract. I would view it as a 3 year, $4M/year, insurance policy on Rodgers health and the ability to keep the team winning if he goes down over the next 3 years. That "extra $ spent" on insurance goes down, if you factor in that you have to pay someone in the backup spot anyway.

You, I and a few others just differ on our opinions and philosophy of the #2 QB. If you are a team like The Jets, The Bills, The Browns, etc. throwing that money at a Vet backup would be a total waste IMO. Those teams should be grooming young guys for the future. However, if you are a team that has realistic SB aspirations, I think you are playing Russian Roulette by having Boyle as your #2.

 

[greengold]

It's OK, but, maybe take a good look at the history of those players before calling it "odd." Sure, Plunkett is a recognizable name in NFL history, but, prior to his SB win, he was a #1 overall pick who floundered big time. He caused the Patriots to draft Steve Grogan. Was traded to 49ers for two 1st round picks, then cut by the Niners just two seasons later. First action with OAK he threw 5 INTs... But, OAK stuck with him the following year over Marc Wilson. He had worked his way well down the food chain before realizing ultimate success at the age of 33, winning the SB that year...

Flacco?
Dilfer? Do you remember how bad he was?
Brad Johnson?
Hoss....?

 

[Mondio]

Football salaries aren't cheap and that $9M guaranteed is on a 3 year contract. I would view it as a 3 year, $4M/year, insurance policy on Rodgers health and the ability to keep the team winning if he goes down over the next 3 years. That "extra $ spent" on insurance goes down, if you factor in that you have to pay someone in the backup spot anyway.

You, I and a few others just differ on our opinions and philosophy of the #2 QB. If you are a team like The Jets, The Bills, The Browns, etc. throwing that money at a Vet backup would be a total waste IMO. Those teams should be grooming young guys for the future. However, if you are a team that has realistic SB aspirations, I think you are playing Russian Roulette by having Boyle as your #2.

Maybe, he was still and UDFA who's played for a quarter of the league already and has lost a lot, as well as won some. You can bet if he has any success with any sort of extended playing time, he'll be there with his hand out for more or be sent looking again. It cost them 9 million, and I doubt it gets them 3 years with him.

Just a season ago or 2 ago, he lost 5 straight and was replaced, why do you think he'd carry the load for us?

The only reason these lesser QB's win, is the team around them, it's rarely because of what they brought to the table, and if they really brought that sort of stuff to the table, they'd be a highly paid starter in no time.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It's OK, but, maybe take a good look at the history of those players before calling it "odd." Sure, Plunkett is a recognizable name in NFL history, but, prior to his SB win, he was a #1 overall pick who floundered big time. He caused the Patriots to draft Steve Grogan. Was traded to 49ers for two 1st round picks, then cut by the Niners just two seasons later. First action with OAK he threw 5 INTs... But, OAK stuck with him the following year over Marc Wilson. He had worked his way well down the food chain before realizing ultimate success at the age of 33, winning the SB that year...

Flacco?
Dilfer? Do you remember how bad he was?
Brad Johnson?
Hoss....?

LOL...on your trying to justify Plunkett being on your list.

"he was a #1 overall pick who floundered big time. He caused the Patriots to draft Steve Grogan. Was traded to 49ers for two 1st round picks"

So the 49'ers just thought "here is a QB that sucks, lets give the Pats 2 1st rounders for him"? Steve Grogan turned out to be a 5th round STEAL, that allowed the Pats to cash in on Plunkett.


Again, for the 900th time, for me it is the lack of real NFL experience that separates Boyle from every other name people seem to be comparing him too. The list of backup QB's that I provided in a post yesterday is not screaming HOF QB! However, what most of them are, are QB's with a lot of NFL experience and IMO would be able to come in and probably be able to manage a game much better than Boyle. I wouldn't even be that excited about the 4 rookies that are backup QB's this season for the same reason, inexperience. However, given how solid they were in college, where they were selected in the draft and what they did in the preseason, I would take any of the 4 over Boyle.

The guys you listed were players that won SB's as starters and you are trying to use those names as "unlikely SB winning QB's" to justify we shouldn't be worried about Boyle having to come in and play this season? All the guys you listed had a lot of experience (good and bad) before winning a SB, they didn't do it as a backup in their first season of playing in the NFL. Boyle has suited up once and taken 0 snaps in an actual NFL game.

Boyle might eventually work his way on to your list in 10 or so years, but I highly doubt it will be for what he does this season.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The only reason these lesser QB's win, is the team around them, it's rarely because of what they brought to the table, and if they really brought that sort of stuff to the table, they'd be a highly paid starter in no time.

We could go round and round about this and it just goes back to the fact that we disagree on the philosophy as to who you keep as your #2 QB. I just hope neither of us are proven right or wrong and Rodgers takes about 99% of the snaps.

I will end my rants with just a 2 part question for you. What does Tim Boyle bring to the table as the Packers #2 QB and what do you expect out of him this season?

 

[greengold]

LOL...on your trying to justify Plunkett being on your list.

"he was a #1 overall pick who floundered big time. He caused the Patriots to draft Steve Grogan. Was traded to 49ers for two 1st round picks"

So the 49'ers just thought "here is a QB that sucks, lets give the Pats 2 1st rounders for him"? Steve Grogan turned out to be a 5th round STEAL, that allowed the Pats to cash in on Plunkett.


Again, for the 900th time, for me it is the lack of real NFL experience that separates Boyle from every other name people seem to be comparing him too. The list of backup QB's that I provided in a post yesterday is not screaming HOF QB! However, what most of them are, are QB's with a lot of NFL experience and IMO would be able to come in and probably be able to manage a game much better than Boyle. I wouldn't even be that excited about the 4 rookies that are backup QB's this season for the same reason, inexperience. However, given how solid they were in college, where they were selected in the draft and what they did in the preseason, I would take any of the 4 over Boyle.

The guys you listed were players that won SB's as starters and you are trying to use those names as "unlikely SB winning QB's" to justify we shouldn't be worried about Boyle having to come in and play this season? All the guys you listed had a lot of experience (good and bad) before winning a SB, they didn't do it as a backup in their first season of playing in the NFL. Boyle has suited up once and taken 0 snaps in an actual NFL game.

Boyle might eventually work his way on to your list in 10 or so years, but I highly doubt it will be for what he does this season.

No. You are wrong. I won’t waste my time explaining where. Just back off on the accelerator a little bud.

 

[Mondio]

I don't even really care for him, but whether it's him or someone else, the overwhelming factor on whether or not we win without Rodgers is going to be how good are all the other players on this team around the QB. At this point, I think the #3 RB is more important than who our back up QB is. I'm more concerned about keeping guys like Clark after another draft than who our #2 QB is. Hoyer has experience going for him, so did Kizer. Back up QB's need the team around them.

I think Kizer is "better" in terms of ability. but Boyle has more poise. Kizer kind of proved he keeps making bad, bad decisions under pressure. it's not like he makes a bad one when he's under pressure all game, it's like whenever they bring pressure he loses poise and makes bad decisions. i don't know what Hoyer has other than nobody keeps him around long and he's lost plenty as well, and was an UDFA.

If our Defense is good and run game can be effective, not just rip off big ones because they're playing pass, we'd likely win some with a back up like boyle

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don't even really care for him, but whether it's him or someone else, the overwhelming factor on whether or not we win without Rodgers is going to be how good are all the other players on this team around the QB.

Fair enough and that seems to be the prevailing factor in a lot of peoples heads, including the Packers and can't say that it hasn't crossed my mind either. Although not a great option, but if the team outside of Rodgers plays much better than it has the last several years, Rodgers gets hurt, Boyle doesn't play well, you can always go out and try to sign a guy to try and hang on til Rodgers gets back.

Thanks for another logical, civil discussion.

 

[Dantés]

Own your words. I try to choose mine carefully.

"Sure, anything can happen, but if you want to rely on the luck of having an UDFA second year QB out of an FCS school, coming in and playing..."

Whatever. Relying on luck is a complete reversal of my message.

Bigger point is how other teams are better at finding talent than others.

I chose Brady because it was easy. WTF dude? The NFL is littered with the most unlikely backup QBs who won Super Bowls.

Kurt Warner, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Jim Plunkett, and most recently Nick Foles...

You don't have to ride into the season with TOP talents at every position, backups included. That's fine that you think the Packers would need a lot of luck if Boyle gets pressed into duty (and you intimated I was referring to Boyle, when I was not, more thinking of Wilkins). I disagree. Enjoy your day.

"Littered" is a strong word. The examples you're plucking are from quite a wide date range.

"Unlikely" is also a strong word for some of these examples. Plunkett was a #1 overall pick. Hostetler was a 3rd rounder. Dilfer was a 6th overall pick. Nick Foles was a 3rd rounder.

Only Warner and Johnson were "unlikely" in the sense of coming from the UDFA ranks (or the equivalent thereof in Johnson's case-- 9th round pick).

Very few undrafted quarterbacks go on to to do much of anything. Counting on an untested one to be your QB2 or QB3 (in Wilkins case) does mean that you'd be darn lucky to survive your starter going down.

 

[Mondio]

Fair enough and that seems to be the prevailing factor in a lot of peoples heads, including the Packers and can't say that it hasn't crossed my mind either. Although not a great option, but if the team outside of Rodgers plays much better than it has the last several years, Rodgers gets hurt, Boyle doesn't play well, you can always go out and try to sign a guy to try and hang on til Rodgers gets back.

Thanks for another logical, civil discussion.

one more and I was ready to bust out some yo momma jokes on your ***

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

one more and I was ready to bust out some yo momma jokes on your ***

You mean....."Your Momma is so hard up....she's dating Tim Boyle"?

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

I'm not comparing Boyle to Kizer one iota here, I don't think either of them are legit #2 QB's. I was looking at having Boyle as your #2 VS someone like Hoyer.

Okay that makes sense now. But the thing is NOBODY knows what we have in Boyle, not even the coaching staff/front office. They have an idea, they like what they see, but until he's out there against the 1s, along with our 1s, we can't be entirely sure.

The only thing we know is Boyle is an ascendant talent right now; but we won't know his ceiling until he meets regular season NFL competition. Gute probably realizes that should Rodgers go down, we probably don't yet have enough surrounding Boyle to make a real push for the postseason. But on a positive note, Boyle can get some real reps and valuable NFL experience, that hopefully he can continue to grow from. Depending on that maturation process, Gute can make informed decisions down the line about the QB position.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

That puts pressure on Lazard to make something happen. He'll be credited with his 2nd year after this so next time around if he doesn't stick he'll be looking for a spot on someone else's active roster most likely. ESB going down and Moore getting cut makes it a lot easier though.

I'm thinking the depth may play out like this:

Adams
MVS
Allison
Kumerow
Shepherd
Davis
Lazard

There's going to be some real pressure on the bottom 4 to show some potential. I could see a 2nd Rounder used on a WR in 2020. Kumerow also I believe would fall under the veteran designation so I can't envision Gute holding on to 2 veteran WRs on the Practice Squad post the 2020 Draft.

 

[Dantés]

Sterberger to IR with a left ankle/foot injury, Lazard being promoted to the 53 to take his spot.

Smells like an excuse to stash a guy who isn't ready to help them.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

Smells like an excuse to stash a guy who isn't ready to help them.

He was carted to the locker room....

He likely had a prognosis of more than a couple weeks so IR seemed worthwhile.

Plus he likely was the 4th TE on the depth chart so why not open up a spot? I'm actually surprised it wasn't Ramsey or Sheldon given the depth issue we have at LB since they didn't add Baylis.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

That puts pressure on Lazard to make something happen. He'll be credited with his 2nd year after this so next time around if he doesn't stick he'll be looking for a spot on someone else's active roster most likely. ESB going down and Moore getting cut makes it a lot easier though.

I'm thinking the depth may play out like this:

Adams
MVS
Allison
Kumerow
Shepherd
Davis
Lazard

There's going to be some real pressure on the bottom 4 to show some potential. I could see a 2nd Rounder used on a WR in 2020. Kumerow also I believe would fall under the veteran designation so I can't envision Gute holding on to 2 veteran WRs on the Practice Squad post the 2020 Draft.

Allison is only on a one year deal, so I can see this being his last season in Green Bay. Mainly due to the fact of: If he has a great year, he is going to want big bucks and if he has a marginal, average or injury filled year, next cheaper man up.

Lots of moving and interchangeable parts between WR #3-7, could even throw MVS in there if he only has an average season.

Fortunately for the Packers 5 of the 7 are on cheap deals, Allison is reasonable and really Adams is a bargain compared to most of the other top 10 WR's.

 

[Dantés]

He was carted to the locker room....

He likely had a prognosis of more than a couple weeks so IR seemed worthwhile.

Plus he likely was the 4th TE on the depth chart so why not open up a spot? I'm actually surprised it wasn't Ramsey or Sheldon given the depth issue we have at LB since they didn't add Baylis.

Whoops.

 

[OldSchool101]

Not really sure what you mean by that. Are you saying every #2 QB is equal in risk of not playing well, thus they are all the same? Risk of what? Injury? Because if you are implying they are all the same risk as far as talent goes, I would strongly disagree.



I'm not comparing Boyle to Kizer one iota here, I don't think either of them are legit #2 QB's. I was looking at having Boyle as your #2 VS someone like Hoyer. There are 21 teams where I would say we already know what their backups are capable of. Are any of them GREAT QB's no or at least not yet? But they are proven QB's. Going through the list, I found the other 11 teams to have either high 1st round picks as backups (Giants, Redskins, Patriots, Bengals). Only 8 teams, Packers, Steelers, Cardinals, Broncos, Jags, Vikings, Cowboys and Panthers have #2 QB's with very little NFL experience. With the Packers, Broncos (Allen) and the Jags (Minshew) the only 3 having guys with no NFL experience.

1. Cardinals: Hundley (hesitated to put him on this list)
2. Falcons: Matt Schaub
3. Ravens: Robert Griffin III
4. Bills: Matt Barkley
5. Bears: Chase Daniels
6. Browns: Drew Stanton
7. Lions: Josh Johnson
8. Texans: AJ McCarron
9. Colts: Brian Hoyer
10. Chiefs: Matt Moore
11. Chargers: Tyrod Taylor
12. Rams: Blake Bortles
13. Dolphins: Josh Rosen
14. Saints: Teddy Bridgewater
15. Jets: Trevor Siemian
16. Raiders: Mike Glennon
17. Eagles: Josh McCown
18. Seahawks: Geno Smith
19. 49'ers: Nick Mullens
20. Buccaneers: Blaine Gabbert
21. Titans: Ryan Tannehill

Now you can go through that list of 21 QB's and say "this guy sucks or that guy is a bum", but what do we really know about Boyle?

I’m a little surprised to see him on the 53 man roster
He had a good preseason but it would’ve have shocked me at all to see him on the PS. The only thing I can think of was the “lesser of 2 evils” mentality. Kizer just wasn’t improving and it’s becoming futile to keep pumping resources his way.
I’ll give Gutenkunst credit at ILB, but this move cutting Kizer warrants a look at a better QB strategy. This has to be on Gutes mind.

 

[OldSchool101]

Haven't heard, but we did try to snag him in 2017.

https://boston.cbslocal.com/2017/11...e-knew-about-team-trying-to-sign-brian-hoyer/

Well. This makes more sense to me then. MM may be telling the truth there. There’s no sense in distracting him with those decisions unless we felt like we had a legitimate shot of him signing first.

I give credit to the previous FO for at least pursuing him. It’s very possible the new staff has continued to search for a viable alternative, but just haven’t pulled the trigger quite yet.

I don’t expect them to get crazy with a backup QB contract. But I’d certainly say 4M is very reasonable for a serviceable veteran. Apparently other teams agree with us.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don’t expect them to get crazy with a backup QB contract. But I’d certainly say 4M is very reasonable for a serviceable veteran. Apparently other teams agree with us.

Agreed and a move I would have made a month or 5 ago. Back in 2017, when the Packers were reportedly pursing Hoyer in late October, they were 4-3 at the time and while they did end up winning 3 more games under Hundley, TT may have felt that by the time they got Hoyer up to speed, the money wouldn't be worth spending on what was beginning to look like a lost season without Rodgers.

I think the Packers committed to having either Kizer or Boyle once they started camps. If they are ever going to change this philosophy of having cheap understudies, then I hope they decide it way before camps and preseason starts and give that Vet QB some time to learn the system and form some chemistry with his teammates.

The other thing lost in all this and I mentioned it awhile ago, your QB room and scout teams can get much better when you have 2 very smart well seasoned vets in it. Without trying to wake up the "negative Rodgers fans", maybe that is why they haven't had a vet working with Rodgers, he prefers the young guys? The last 7 years we have seen the following #2 backups behind Rodgers. Leads me to believe that besides bringing in Wallace and Flynn once the season started and Rodgers was hurt, the philosophy is have a developing young QB as your #2 is the Packer way.

• Graham Harrell
• BJ Coleman
• Wallace/Tolzien/Flynn
• Tolzien
• Hundley (3 years)
• Kizer