2019 Packer Roster / Practice Squad Changes

[Favre>Rodgers259]

I actually would prefer if there is a decent FA ILB they go that route. Not a fan of heading into the draft with such a glaring need, especially if Martinez isn't resigned.

The harsh reality is that such a player doesn't exist. As the game has become more pass happy, the eye-opener is that such ILBs are rare. Growing up in HS you just didn't see guys at the ILB schemed to cover WRs and TEs outside of a simple 3 step zone drop(maybe an OLB if he was also a RB on offense) that was normally a SS tasking, and that very much is still the case.

The college game is skewed because alot of ILBs are either too slow for the pro game or tweeners who wouldn't hold up in the NFL due to size and have to move to safety to be competitive.


We have to give Gute his props; he's really tried to develop that position, unfortunately the well is dry.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The harsh reality is that such a player doesn't exist. As the game has become more pass happy, the eye-opener is that such ILBs are rare. Growing up in HS you just didn't see guys at the ILB schemed to cover WRs and TEs outside of a simple 3 step zone drop(maybe an OLB if he was also a RB on offense) that was normally a SS tasking, and that very much is still the case.

The college game is skewed because alot of ILBs are either too slow for the pro game or tweeners who wouldn't hold up in the NFL due to size and have to move to safety to be competitive.


We have to give Gute his props; he's really tried to develop that position, unfortunately the well is dry.

Are you trying to say that the Packers can't improve at ILB in 2020 through any means other than the draft? See, I don't buy that. The Packers are probably going to be picking in the last 1/4 of the first round. Expecting to improve the position with that pick or a later one, is a crap shoot at best.

If there is still a glaring hole(s) at ILB after this season ends, IMO the most effective way to try and plug that hole(s) is through Free Agency or a trade. You are acquiring a known commodity. Sure, go ahead and use a draft pick or 2, but that is running a higher risk of the position still being weak in 2020. We tried that crappy approach at CB for how many years? Had we not signed the Smith Brothers, Gary wouldn't have been the answer at OLB right now either.

I understand that the draft can be an excellent place to find your future talent, but trying to draft instant starters, at positions of weakness, is a dice roll I am not in favor of each year.

 

[Mondio]

I would say that to get a guy we "want" is going to cost so much in draft capital we'd suffer in other areas or we draft potential and see what we can do. Those guys are rare. I don't think there are more than 1, maybe 2 every draft or 2 that would make people feel comfortable picking and thinking they'd contribute. and then there are always a couple guys that are picked later that have potential to make a swith, like Burks, and you're hoping they can.

or you're left covering up weaknesses of who you have like we are right now. And you can still have a pretty good defense with that, but my issue is, i'm not paying Blake to be what he is in the amounts some people are saying he is going to get. At this point I'd rather just start over.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

Are you trying to say that the Packers can't improve at ILB in 2020 through any means other than the draft? See, I don't buy that. The Packers are probably going to be picking in the last 1/4 of the first round. Expecting to improve the position with that pick or a later one, is a crap shoot at best.

If there is still a glaring hole(s) at ILB after this season ends, IMO the most effective way to try and plug that hole(s) is through Free Agency or a trade. You are acquiring a known commodity. Sure, go ahead and use a draft pick or 2, but that is running a higher risk of the position still being weak in 2020. We tried that crappy approach at CB for how many years? Had we not signed the Smith Brothers, Gary wouldn't have been the answer at OLB right now either.

I understand that the draft can be an excellent place to find your future talent, but trying to draft instant starters, at positions of weakness, is a dice roll I am not in favor of each year.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/all/inside-linebacker/

I tried to find a way to paste it into the thread but if you can find a starter in that mix be my guest. Even the top players are no more than a 2 year rental at best.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

i'm not paying Blake to be what he is in the amounts some people are saying he is going to get. At this point I'd rather just start over.

I would love to know what the Packers themselves think about Blake. I read mostly praise about him in the media, yet many of us here, that watch every snap, have a different opinion of him. Unless, someone else on the roster or a FA pickup comes out of the weeds, the Packers are going to find themselves in a bit of a jam. If they don't resign Blake, they have very little as far as ILB talent. So do they, as you said "Start over" or do they try to resign Blake at a reasonable contract and then just go after a really good compliment to him?

I still haven't fully dissected whether Blake is just average or below as an ILB or would he be much better if he was playing next to a talented ILB and/or behind a better DL. Again, I think something that the Packer coaches and Gute know better than most of us.

 

[Pkrjones]

Are you trying to say that the Packers can't improve at ILB in 2020 through any means other than the draft? See, I don't buy that. The Packers are probably going to be picking in the last 1/4 of the first round. Expecting to improve the position with that pick or a later one, is a crap shoot at best.

If there is still a glaring hole(s) at ILB after this season ends, IMO the most effective way to try and plug that hole(s) is through Free Agency or a trade. You are acquiring a known commodity. Sure, go ahead and use a draft pick or 2, but that is running a higher risk of the position still being weak in 2020. We tried that crappy approach at CB for how many years? Had we not signed the Smith Brothers, Gary wouldn't have been the answer at OLB right now either.

I understand that the draft can be an excellent place to find your future talent, but trying to draft instant starters, at positions of weakness, is a dice roll I am not in favor of each year.

For the most part I agree with this, but... gute found instant starters, at weak positions, in Savage AND Jenkins. I don't think it's a near impossible task to shore up ILB via the draft and free agency.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/all/inside-linebacker/

I tried to find a way to paste it into the thread but if you can find a starter in that mix be my guest. Even the top players are no more than a 2 year rental at best.

I looked, but really there is a ton of football to be played as well as time to pass between now and Free Agency. That list won't look that way come March 18th. Nor probably will the talent on it be the same, some will be worth more, some less. Some will be resigned and some who aren't scheduled to become free agents will be released.

One could say the same thing about the upcoming draft and I think with less surety. Devin White and Devin Bush were the top 2 ILB's in the 2019 draft and look how fast they got snapped up. Not even sure how they are playing for the Bucs and Steelers this year? I don't think we see that kind of talent drop into the Packers lap late in round 1. Just looking at 2020 Mock drafts, I don't even see much in the way of ILB's in the top picks.

The bottom line for me, there is no guarantees. You could spend a ton of money on a FA and get a dud, same with a draft pick. Gute is going to have to decide how big the need is and how he can best fill it. If he thinks he can do this via the draft, great. However, if he can find a FA that fits the need, super.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don't think it's a near impossible task to shore up ILB via the draft and free agency.

I fully agree with that You sign a free agent and double down with a draft pick. Much like Gute did at S, OLB and OL this past off season.

I never said that he shouldn't use the draft, I said he shouldn't solely rely on the draft for instantly fixing a position of great weakness.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

One could say the same thing about the upcoming draft and I think with less surety. Devin White and Devin Bush were the top 2 ILB's in the 2019 draft and look how fast they got snapped up. Not even sure how they are playing for the Bucs and Steelers this year? I don't think we see that kind of talent drop into the Packers lap late in round 1. Just looking at 2020 Mock drafts, I don't even see much in the way of ILB's in the top picks.

The Top ILBs will likely be gone by 20th, so that leaves the Tier 2 guys, which you could consider Blake somewhere between there and Tier 3. Blake is a must sign because we don't know how the Draft is going to go, but if we could find a LB that eventually makes him the 2nd ILB and not the first, I think we'll be ok.

You also brought up an excellent point that a better DL will help. M. Adams isn't doing much opposite of Lowry, and while Lancaster did force a fumble that changed the course of the game, there's definite room to upgrade at his position as well. I get now that Mike Daniels' release was more about the on the field return vs his financial investment, but I'd definitely take him right over Adams now playing opposite Lowry.

 

[greengold]

I know I'll get called crazy for this and I don't much care, being a Ty Summers fan, but I do think they might be grooming the kid to take over for Martinez after the season. Just a hunch and nothing more. I think they have plenty of talent, but, the problem lies with Martinez more than the person playing alongside. JMO.

I like what Goodson's done, and he's progressively getting better it seems. I like what I've seen of Burks in his limited action after returning from the pec. Should be really interesting seeing what Campbell brings to this table upon his return. In just 3 games last year, Ibraheim Campbell recorded 20 tackles 1 FF and 1 PD prior to his injury. Not looking for him to be a savior, but could do well situationally.

 

[HardRightEdge]

True 3-down linebackers are exceptionally rare. We had an illustration in the KC game. While KC runs a 4-3 with Hitchens an WLB, his coverage role is similar to a 3-4 ILB. How many 3-down 3-4 ILBs can flip and run with a RB in isolation as we see at 1:20 in the following clip? You can probably count those guys on one hand after a finger amputation.

https://www.packers.com/video/packers-rb-aaron-jones-best-plays-against-chiefs-on-snf-week-8

Even if you protect that 3-downer from having to run down field, he has to have the play recognition to effectively defend the middle zone. Dropping 5-10 yards, depending on down and distance, sitting down, and spying the QB might be the assigned job with a running QB. But when we look at the first play in that link above, a 1st. and 20 in what looks like a zone coverage, Jones gets that dropping ILB leaning outside and burns him inside on probably the best route Jones has run as a Packer. His progress as a receiver, the one deep ball drop notwithstanding, is pretty stunning. He's the second best route runner on this team.

While you won't face a RB every week who presents this kind of problem, there are enough Kamaras, McCaffreys, Joneses or [fill in the blank] in this league, whether 3-down or 3rd. down backs, where an ILB who can handle those coverages are like needles in a haystack. Games are lost in these matchups, and Jones vs. KC illustrates, if you don't have the right personnel.

To Favre>Rodgers259 point, lets consider one list of 2020 draft ILB prospects:

https://www.draftblaster.com/2020-n...ft/2020-nfl-draft-inside-linebacker-rankings/

I'm assuming this was written before Moses had ACL surgery but we can set that aside for this discussion.

The write-up says, "elite sideline to sideline speed to cover from the middle- an increasing need in today’s NFL." That may be, but a true 3-down ILB has do a lot more than play sideline to sideline as the Jones (Kamaa, McCaffrey, et. al.) clips illustrates. In the past few years I've looked at a lot of college ILB highlight reels and these guys are not covering downfield, or if they are they are not making plays that get to the highlight reels.

Moses is no different--run stops and blitzes.

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There are couple of plays where he is actually downfield in zone coverage making tackles but we get no sense of his coverage ability.

Walters Football favors Kenneth Murray. Look at his highlight reel from last year. Same thing.

Even the top 10 picks from last year were an open book as far as downfield coverage is concerned. Their college highlights didn't show much past 5 yards from the LOS like all these guys. White is working off an MCL so we don't know where he'll end up. Bush has two picks to his credit and 6.3 yds per attempt against him, while giving up a 76% completion rate which isn't that bad when defending a lot of underneath throws from the ILB spot. He might be one of those guys you can count on one hand, time will tell. Then again, he was the 10th. pick in the draft. Good luck with that.

There's a reason why we see in Green Bay (and elsewhere) a parade of SS/hybrid types, guys who were trained in college in downfield coverage who can still make a contribution in the run game.

The least risky and most cost effective formula is to pair a two-down thumper with some sideline-to-sideline speed with a SS type. The problem with Martinez is that he is neither.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Demovsky (and others) noted that the Packers have an open roster spot while Campbell and Sternberger are eligible to return this week. It's looking like one or the other, or both if somebody else is released.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Demovsky (and others) noted that the Packers have an open roster spot while Campbell and Sternberger are eligible to return this week. It's looking like one or the other, or both if somebody else is released.

Or Josh Gordon.

 

[PikeBadger]

Are you trying to say that the Packers can't improve at ILB in 2020 through any means other than the draft? See, I don't buy that. The Packers are probably going to be picking in the last 1/4 of the first round. Expecting to improve the position with that pick or a later one, is a crap shoot at best.

If there is still a glaring hole(s) at ILB after this season ends, IMO the most effective way to try and plug that hole(s) is through Free Agency or a trade. You are acquiring a known commodity. Sure, go ahead and use a draft pick or 2, but that is running a higher risk of the position still being weak in 2020. We tried that crappy approach at CB for how many years? Had we not signed the Smith Brothers, Gary wouldn't have been the answer at OLB right now either.

I understand that the draft can be an excellent place to find your future talent, but trying to draft instant starters, at positions of weakness, is a dice roll I am not in favor of each year.

Draft for a year in advance. Accumulate draft picks and have someone in the front office learn how Belichick maneuvers with those picks. Get the best talent you can that will fit. Use free agency to fill positional holes.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

Draft for a year in advance. Accumulate draft picks and have someone in the front office learn how Belichick maneuvers with those picks. Get the best talent you can that will fit. Use free agency to fill positional holes.

Drafting a year in advance is generally what people call a "luxury pick"; Gute will have 2 or 3 of those this year, but they won't be until Day 3. We can only hope those guys turn into something in 3-5 years.

You can't accumulate picks unless you have something to give up, what are you suggesting we give up?

While Belichick has certainly been the gold standard for the last decade plus, there would have to be a number of changes in the organization for us to operate as he does, that's just unrealistic. However, his system is well documented, and it would again be unrealistic to change our personnel to match what he does on both sides of the ball. To be honest, every coach that's left his organization and tried to create success in his image has been mostly unsuccessful with the exception of being a coordinator, no thanks.

I'm pretty sure every GM is always trying to get the best talent available in the Draft and Free Agency.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Shepherd's release does beg the question as to who will return punts.

Tremon Smith has not returned an NFL punt. At Central Arkansas he returned 25 for 224 yds. with 1 TD. That ain't the NFL. Maybe the ol' standby Tramon Williams again. It's not a job for a 35-36 year old but that didn't stop them from putting him back there last season. Alexander perhaps?

Williams is probably the the best punt returner on this team which shouldn't be the case.

I guess the Packers will let Tramon fair catch most of the punts.

If there is still a glaring hole(s) at ILB after this season ends, IMO the most effective way to try and plug that hole(s) is through Free Agency or a trade.

The Packers will definitely need to upgrade the inside linebacker position next offseason. I agree Gutekunst should double on it in free agency and the draft though.

The Top ILBs will likely be gone by 20th, so that leaves the Tier 2 guys, which you could consider Blake somewhere between there and Tier 3. Blake is a must sign because we don't know how the Draft is going to go, but if we could find a LB that eventually makes him the 2nd ILB and not the first, I think we'll be ok.

Martinez is definitely not a must sign next offseason, especially if he commands several millions a year as expected.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

I guess the Packers will let Tramon fair catch most of the punts.

Had they been smart they would have been letting Tremon practice punts this entire time, doubling down on Shepherd was costly.

The Packers will definitely need to upgrade the inside linebacker position next offseason. I agree Gutekunst should double on it in free agency and the draft though.

I'm still waiting for SOMEONE on this board to tell me who the Packers are signing in Free Agency at ILB. This "mystery man" who's going to be suddenly released without merit is a straw man at best. We'll be going 2-3 ILBs in the Draft, and we're going to have to ride them out as they mature in 2020. Teams just aren't going to release ILBs who can cover, it just doesn't happen. The only reason they would is character issues, or they've lost a step. I know for a time people were mentioning Deone Bucannon, and while I do think he could be a worthwhile addition I don't want to get into a bidding war with the Giants or another team to acquire him.

Martinez is definitely not a must sign next offseason, especially if he commands several millions a year as expected.

I guess I should've put the caveat "within reason". However, we can't do like we've done in the past and expect the "hometown discount" plan to always work either. With the hope that Blake would eventually become the #2 ILB in the future, I'd be in favor of an incentive laden 3Yr/$8M contract. It gives us some kind of proven stability at the position in case one of our draft selections doesn't pan out.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Had they been smart they would have been letting Tremon practice punts this entire time, doubling down on Shepherd was costly.

Smith hasn't had great success returning punts, only averaging 7.6 yards per attempt in college playing against lesser competition in Central Arkansas.

I'm still waiting for SOMEONE on this board to tell me who the Packers are signing in Free Agency at ILB. This "mystery man" who's going to be suddenly released without merit is a straw man at best. We'll be going 2-3 ILBs in the Draft, and we're going to have to ride them out as they mature in 2020. Teams just aren't going to release ILBs who can cover, it just doesn't happen. The only reason they would is character issues, or they've lost a step. I know for a time people were mentioning Deone Bucannon, and while I do think he could be a worthwhile addition I don't want to get into a bidding war with the Giants or another team to acquire him.

It's too early to figure out which inside linebackers might be available next offseason but I'm convinced a better player than Martinez will be among the free agents.

I guess I should've put the caveat "within reason". However, we can't do like we've done in the past and expect the "hometown discount" plan to always work either. With the hope that Blake would eventually become the #2 ILB in the future, I'd be in favor of an incentive laden 3Yr/$8M contract. It gives us some kind of proven stability at the position in case one of our draft selections doesn't pan out.

I expect another team to overpay for Martinez based on him being among the league leaders in tackles over the past three seasons. Therefore I don't believe he will agree to a deal for less than $3 million a year.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Ibraheim Campbell has been activated off PUP. LB Tim Williams has been released.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

Guess Tim Williams is a bust, sad to say. I never heard any news about him whatsoever once he was signed.

 

[XPack]

Looks like Tim Williams is back!

 

[gopkrs]

who is Tim Williams? What's he do?

 

[HardRightEdge]

who is Tim Williams? What's he do?

His relevance is more about the personnel approach than the player.

He's one of Gutekunst's several Draft 2.0 signings over the last two years. These signings are young, low cost former draft picks who've been in the league a while but couldn't stick with their former teams.

In this case, Williams was a 2017 3rd. round pick by Baltimore out of Alabama, claimed off waivers in early October. In claiming him Gutekunst was probably looking for a developmental rotation/depth replacement for Fackrell when he hits free agency after the season. The fact he was the most expendable player on the roster in being released and signed to the practice squad says he may be the next in the line of Draft 2.0 players who have come and gone. He got 82 defensive snaps over the first 4 games this season with Baltimore, including 27 in Week 2 and 30 in Week 3, before being waived after Week 4. He's been limited to 2 special teams snaps with the Packers.

Gutekunst hasn't had a ton of success with these Draft 2.0 guys but it is not for lack of trying. In contrast, Thompson's Pro Personnel department was moribund. However, there have been some minor success stories given the costs with guys who had at least some prior starting experience, not so much with guys without it.

In the sub-$1 million category where Gutekunst got some mileage you can count Antonio Morrison (4th. round in 2016 in the Pipkins trade), Bashaud Breeland (4th. round in 2014 signed as a free agent), Ibraheim Campbell (4th. round in 2015 picked up off waivers) and B.J. Goodson (4th. round in 2016 in a swap of 7th. round picks).

Campbell performed capably at hybrid ILB last season. He might be the starter in that role now that he's back active after the ACL though how ready he might be at the moment is a question mark. Even getting one respectable player out of a two-year haystack is worth the effort compared to Thompson's Pro Personnel scouts sitting on their hands.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I have been impressed with how Gute has kept turning the bottom half of the roster, as well as the PS. Way too many seasons of TT sitting pat on "his guys" and most of "those guys", just weren't ready to play in the NFL...ever.

Not sure what this philosophy of Gute costs the team, but I am assuming they have the money, can afford it and it won't bite them in the.....cap.....in years to follow.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I have been impressed with how Gute has kept turning the bottom half of the roster, as well as the PS. Way too many seasons of TT sitting pat on "his guys" and most of "those guys", just weren't ready to play in the NFL...ever.

Not sure what this philosophy of Gute costs the team, but I am assuming they have the money, can afford it and it won't bite them in the.....cap.....in years to follow.

The cost is negligible. When Gutekunst brings in these under $1 million guys to the 53 man roster they just take the place of somebody else who was making under $1 mil, both typically unvested guys who have no guarantees. It's pretty much a cap and cash wash in swapping out one for another.

The guys moving in and out of the practice squad are also a wash. Those guys get paid a minimum of $8,000 per week, no strings attached. They are all week-to-week. Now, there might be one or more PS players paid more than the weekly minimum to disuade them from signing with somebody else's PS when cut, maybe somebody like Baylis who's moved back and forth to the 53 man roster a couple of times, but again that amount would be negligible.

Campbell activated from PUP to the 53 man with Williams going to PS probably represents a couple $100k savings. Instead of paying both guys under their 53 man roster contracts (which you must do with a PUP player), they are now paying just one. Williams' cost is reduced to his PS weekly pay which is washed out by the PS guy released.

The only material costs in moving these inexpensive players in and out of the roster are:

• Possible opportunity cost: The guy you maybe kinda liked but released in a positional numbers game turns into a player somewhere else.

• Future cost: A dreadful outcome where one of the guys you keep actually turns into a player and you have to pay him to keep him. What a terrible problem to have.