Will The Packers Making the Playoffs?

[Heyjoe4]

Not worried about the DL at all. This is all national clueless narrative stuff. "The Packers lost Kenny Clark, they are suspect against the run." It's just ignorant noise from the out of touch. The Pack will be fine there.

If you want something to be "apprehensive" about? CB is that thing. With Nate Hobbs not even practicing yet this week(He better on Weds or Thursday or alarm bells start ringing) you have Valentine to fill in opposite Keisean, but the backups are Kamal Hadden and Bo Melton.

It's REAL THIN at CB if anyone gets injured or Hobbs can't go Sunday. Hobbs is questionable for Sunday currently.

Thankfully Javon Bullard can play in the slot. Goff is looking closely at the Packers CBs, licking his chops a bit. Keisean, Hobbs, and Bullard are going to need to be on point Sunday, or it could be a long day.

Someone relied to me that someone who thought Clark was good against the run wasn't watching. n I asked for some examples and have received no reply. Stopping the run was the best part of Clark's game last season. The pass? Not so much. He'll be missed, but other guys will make up for it.

And yeah the CB group is, imo, the most vulnerable, with the least talent - for now. Maybe Hobbs reveals something in a new system (like McKinney), and Nixon works hard enough to be called the #1 corner he claims to be. And maybe someone else steps up. But this group is the weakest position group on the team - again, for now.

With the addition of Parsons the entire DL will step up their respective games. Last year the opposing QBs had too much time. Even a great secondary will get burned if the DL can't get pressure.

But if the DL limits opposing QBs to their first read, the CBs' jobs become easier.

 

[Deleted member 18607 aka in gute we trust]

Maybe Hobbs reveals something in a new system.

I'm just hoping Hobbs plays Sunday. That isn't a certainty right now. Missing practice yestersay hopefully was just precautionary. I will feel more confident if he practices both Wednesday and Thursday.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I've been thinking similar things. Generally, a young player makes his biggest leap in performance between Year 2 and Year 3, and this season 4 of our 10 DL are entering their third season.

Last year, Kenny played 63% of Green Bay's defensive snaps - almost 700. That's a lot of snaps that are now going to be spread around to the younger IDL, a lot of opportunities to get some experience and show what they've got. By December and January, I think it's likely we'll see noticeable improvement in that whole core group, and significant improvement in at least a couple of them. Lukas is at the top of my list, but Brooks, Wooden, and Cox have also drawn a lot of praise for how much better they look this preseason.



Good thinking. And if you can visualize that, imagine what Hafley and Covington have been visualizing. I'll bet neither of them has slept a wink since the deal was announced.



I think the youngsters are ready to take the wheel. This was good timing - another example of Gute choosing to make the move a year too early rather than risk making it a year too late. Very shrewd personnel management.

Add in a likely breakout year for Cooper, steady growth from Hopper, a more experienced group of DBs, and I think we're going to be very tough to score on this season.

UDFA Stackhouse may turn some heads as well. Bottom line, this is a very good defense, a little light at corner, but maybe they will prove otherwise.

 

[SudsMcBucky]

Someone relied to me that someone who thought Clark was good against the run wasn't watching. n I asked for some examples and have received no reply. Stopping the run was the best part of Clark's game last season. The pass? Not so much. He'll be missed, but other guys will make up for it.

And yeah the CB group is, imo, the most vulnerable, with the least talent - for now. Maybe Hobbs reveals something in a new system (like McKinney), and Nixon works hard enough to be called the #1 corner he claims to be. And maybe someone else steps up. But this group is the weakest position group on the team - again, for now.

With the addition of Parsons the entire DL will step up their respective games. Last year the opposing QBs had too much time. Even a great secondary will get burned if the DL can't get pressure.

But if the DL limits opposing QBs to their first read, the CBs' jobs become easier.

I know PFF isn't the be-all, end-all, but for all of last season, he graded better against the pass than the run. 63.1 vs the pass (72nd out of 219 DL's) to 57.1 vs the run (83rd out of 219 DL's). 59.3 overall.

 

[Voyageur]

I know PFF isn't the be-all, end-all, but for all of last season, he graded better against the pass than the run. 63.1 vs the pass (72nd out of 219 DL's) to 57.1 vs the run (83rd out of 219 DL's). 59.3 overall.

It might not be a complete answer, but it sure does bring up some questions though, doesn't it? Let's assume that there are 120 first team defensive linemen in the NFL. Some teams going with a 3-man-line, and others 4. That tells me that to be in the middle of the pack, you'd have to be something around a 57 to 63 rating. The stats would indicate that Clark was essentially about average against the run and not very efficient when it came to pass defense. Using your information, maybe the Packers did themselves a lot of good moving on from Clark on the defensive line. As for us, as fans, maybe we saw more to him than what existed because we had nobody out there who was even at that level.

You brought up good points there.

 

[Heyjoe4]

It might not be a complete answer, but it sure does bring up some questions though, doesn't it? Let's assume that there are 120 first team defensive linemen in the NFL. Some teams going with a 3-man-line, and others 4. That tells me that to be in the middle of the pack, you'd have to be something around a 57 to 63 rating. The stats would indicate that Clark was essentially about average against the run and not very efficient when it came to pass defense. Using your information, maybe the Packers did themselves a lot of good moving on from Clark on the defensive line. As for us, as fans, maybe we saw more to him than what existed because we had nobody out there who was even at that level.

You brought up good points there.

Agreed. It's not scientific, but I seem to recall during last season that sportswriters were commenting on Clark's drop-off. That was based on comparisons to previous seasons, when he was a good player and complete NT.

It's hard to lose a guy like Clark who was held in high regard here. So emotionally it's hard to see him go. But it's all about production in pro sports. It will be interesting to see how he does in Dallas.

 

[Voyageur]

Agreed. It's not scientific, but I seem to recall during last season that sportswriters were commenting on Clark's drop-off. That was based on comparisons to previous seasons, when he was a good player and complete NT.

It's hard to lose a guy like Clark who was held in high regard here. So emotionally it's hard to see him go. But it's all about production in pro sports. It will be interesting to see how he does in Dallas.

You're right about the drop-off. The stats showed it and so did the visuals when watching games. Another thing that wasn't happening is seeing him push an offensive player back into the QB to force them out of the pocket. He was losing that push that he had during his early years in the league. Add in the fact that this was a contract year for him and you can count on some fool GM paying him way too much money to wear their uniform.

I hope he makes it to the Pro Bowl with the Cowboys. He's a class act.

 

[El Guapo]

Clark had two things against him last season. One was that he stated that he didn't like the switch to the 4-3, and the second was the foot injury. Aaron Kampman didn't like the Packers switch and likewise struggled in the new scheme under Capers. I think that Kenny would have rebounded somewhat from last year, but the question that will never be answered (in our defense) is how much.

CB is our biggest weakness but so is run blocking. This isn't a national media "narrative." We lost our best two run stuffers in in Slaton and Clark. We are replacing them with a bunch of new guys. This is now on Hafley to figure out a scheme that prevents teams from running it down our throats. Luckily we have a pretty good LB crew and good safeties, but ideally you want the RB stopped near the LOS and not halfway to the first down marker. We might see more of Isaiah McDuffie if the Lions are pounding it down the middle.

I think that teams, starting with the Lions, are going to put us to the test to prove that we can stop the run. If we go with a basic response such as putting a safety in the box, then Goff is going to test our CBs that are now on an island. It will be obvious pretty quick regarding who has the right answers to Sunday's test.

 

[OldSchool101]

I don’t want to say we’re “better” without Clark, however he likely wasn’t going to get resigned either. He’s in a contract out situation in 2026 and his production was waning. He’s just not worth his $21Mil annual anymore. He would’ve either had to restructure at 50% that money or get traded. His trade value today is probably a 5th Rounder etc. His primary benefit now is his absence pays for 1/2 of the Parsons deal. I love the guy and wish him well, but he’s just not the Clark we saw 5 years ago either.
In my mind we have Dallas a 5th Round graded player in a trade. Yet we freed up $20Mil annual. Thankfully we applied $26.4Mil of cap last year to make this move possible.

I’m actually intrigued by what Haf can do with LVN, Wooden, Brooks, Wyatt, Brinson, Stack. These are still what I’d call all players in ascension (projected). If you get 1 or 2 of these guys playing above expectation you mostly make up for Clark. Truthfully we were 1 DT heavy with Clark here.

 

[milani]

I know PFF isn't the be-all, end-all, but for all of last season, he graded better against the pass than the run. 63.1 vs the pass (72nd out of 219 DL's) to 57.1 vs the run (83rd out of 219 DL's). 59.3 overall.

Kenny was not fast enough to be that kind of a pass rusher. He is a Gilbert Brown type designed to plug the run.

 

[gopkrs]

Maybe we didn't really lose a lot with Kenny leaving. He was a great Packer for a long time but it wouldn't surprise me if the problems on the def inside that we had for what seemed like a lot of years, was before Haf and a coaching problem.

 

[milani]

Maybe we didn't really lose a lot with Kenny leaving. He was a great Packer for a long time but it wouldn't surprise me if the problems on the def inside that we had for what seemed like a lot of years, was before Haf and a coacing problem.

Little more about who was on either side of Kenny. If you always double team him that means you have less respect for what is around him. Before Haf we played 3-4 since 2009. If teams do not succeed in running inside they can try going outside which is where Kenny was not. Stopping the run is not just on one player. And until last year our overall defense had not had a successful season in a long, long time.

 

[OldSchool101]

I don’t know. I certainly don’t want to say we’re better without Kenny Clark either. I often wonder though if Kenny Clark wasn’t a better fit in a 3-4 Defense. In a base D the 4-3 flips to a pair of DT, but they do not need to play traditional NT.
We have several players that can 2 Gap if needed. Wooden, Wyatt, Brinson snd Stack all have the size (300lb-330lb)if necessary.

What I think we’re leaning towards is a Speed to Power feel. Look at our Front7 speed 40 Yard Times

300’slb Devonte Wyatt 4.77 sec
300lb Colby Wooden 4.79 (ran at 275lb)
270’slb. Rashan Gary 4.58 sec
240’slb Micah Parsons 4.36 sec
270’slb Lukas Van Ness 4.58 sec
240’slb Edgerrin Cooper 4.51 sec
*(ran in 230’slb)
240lb. Isaiah McDuffie 4.61 sec
240’slb. Quay Walker 4.52 sec


To give us an idea of his fast we’ve become, let’s look at CM3 40 times from just over 15 years ago.

Clay Matthews 40-yard
4.67 Combine
4.58 Pro Day

I would venture to say this is the fastest Packer Front 7 Defense Groupings ever assembled. Possibly one of, if not the fastest D groupings leaguewide.

 

[Voyageur]

I don’t know. I certainly don’t want to say we’re better without Kenny Clark either. I often wonder though if Kenny Clark wasn’t a better fit in a 3-4 Defense. In a base D the 4-3 flips to a pair of DT, but they do not need to play traditional NT.
We have several players that can 2 Gap if needed. Wooden, Wyatt, Brinson snd Stack all have the size (300lb-330lb)if necessary.

What I think we’re leaning towards is a Speed to Power feel. Look at our Front7 speed 40 Yard Times

300’slb Devonte Wyatt 4.77 sec
300lb Colby Wooden 4.79 (ran at 275lb)
270’slb. Rashan Gary 4.58 sec
240’slb Micah Parsons 4.36 sec
270’slb Lukas Van Ness 4.58 sec
240’slb Edgerrin Cooper 4.51 sec
*(ran in 230’slb)
240lb. Isaiah McDuffie 4.61 sec
240’slb. Quay Walker 4.52 sec


To give us an idea of his fast we’ve become, let’s look at CM3 40 times from just over 15 years ago.

Clay Matthews 40-yard
4.67 Combine
4.58 Pro Day

I would venture to say this is the fastest Packer Front 7 Defense Groupings ever assembled. Possibly one of, if not the fastest D groupings leaguewide.

Excellent point.

 

[Heyjoe4]

You're right about the drop-off. The stats showed it and so did the visuals when watching games. Another thing that wasn't happening is seeing him push an offensive player back into the QB to force them out of the pocket. He was losing that push that he had during his early years in the league. Add in the fact that this was a contract year for him and you can count on some fool GM paying him way too much money to wear their uniform.

I hope he makes it to the Pro Bowl with the Cowboys. He's a class act.

Yeah Clark reminds me of another stalwart DT, Mike Daniels - remember him? I don't think he played NT but was a force on the DL for many years.

And yeah, last year Clark lost the ability to push the opposing C and/or G back into the QB. We think of 29 as young, well I certainly do. But every snap in the trenches is like a mini-fight for these guys. They get slapped on the helmet and have to repeatedly give max effort at their position. I think RB is even more brutal, but line positions, esp C, G, NT are right behind.

 

[OldSchool101]

Yeah Clark reminds me of another stalwart DT, Mike Daniels - remember him? I don't think he played NT but was a force on the DL for many years.

And yeah, last year Clark lost the ability to push the opposing C and/or G back into the QB. We think of 29 as young, well I certainly do. But every snap in the trenches is like a mini-fight for these guys. They get slapped on the helmet and have to repeatedly give max effort at their position. I think RB is even more brutal, but line positions, esp C, G, NT are right behind.

Yes and One recent example I noticed. I happened to watch the Dallas at MN game Week 11? 2022. Was curious to see because 8-1 Vikings had not lost a game at home and Micah Parsons, Lawrence and Armstrong just dominated Cousins and that OL. So much so Cousins began to flinch when no one was around. Even Kevin O. looked just dismayed.
However a biproduct of that game was Parsons also looked good against the run. He’s pretty good at shedding and shooting into a nearby RB trying to hit a gap.
Further noted was Dalvin Cook who I almost forgot about. The guy used to dominate until about?.. 27yrs old.
He was touted as “better than Aaron jones” by many Vikings fans, but reality was Aaron Jones and Cook were near identical (except Cook fumbled much more) until Cook reached ceiling and disappeared at about 28yrs old and just absolutely dropped off a cliff. In the last 2 seasons? Cook has 75 attempts for 234 for 3.12 per carry. These guys get punished and by the time they turn 30yrs even the healthy ones have an injury list of past abuse.

Seems like OL and QB can play well into 30’s, but they don’t take the level of abuse that Defenders take imo. The D, they first contend with the OL/TE and then they have to tackle another guy often running full steam using his helmet as a battering ram. In addition today’s TE/RB’s are bigger and faster and that doesn’t help the abuse. Seems like once you click past 30yrs+ old the vast majority of players don’t bounce back quite as quickly when injured.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Yes and One recent example I noticed. I happened to watch the Dallas at MN game Week 11? 2022. Was curious to see because 8-1 Vikings had not lost a game at home and Micah Parsons, Lawrence and Armstrong just dominated Cousins and that OL. So much so Cousins began to flinch when no one was around. Even Kevin O. looked just dismayed.
However a biproduct of that game was Parsons also looked good against the run. He’s pretty good at shedding and shooting into a nearby RB trying to hit a gap.
Further noted was Dalvin Cook who I almost forgot about. The guy used to dominate until about?.. 27yrs old.
He was touted as “better than Aaron jones” by many Vikings fans, but reality was Aaron Jones and Cook were near identical (except Cook fumbled much more) until Cook reached ceiling and disappeared at about 28yrs old and just absolutely dropped off a cliff. In the last 2 seasons? Cook has 75 attempts for 234 for 3.12 per carry. These guys get punished and by the time they turn 30yrs even the healthy ones have an injury list of past abuse.

Seems like OL and QB can play well into 30’s, but they don’t take the level of abuse that Defenders take imo. The D, they first contend with the OL/TE and then they have to tackle another guy often running full steam using his helmet as a battering ram. In addition today’s TE/RB’s are bigger and faster and that doesn’t help the abuse. Seems like once you click past 30yrs+ old the vast majority of players don’t bounce back quite as quickly when injured.

Hmmm, I always wondered what happened to Dalvin Cook, so thanks. I think he first went from the Queens to the Jets. So he's out of football now?

When I was referring to positions that take a beating, other than running backs, I thought about OLs and DLs - specifically C and G on offense, and down linemen on defense - the guys in "the trenches".

 

[Voyageur]

Hmmm, I always wondered what happened to Dalvin Cook, so thanks. I think he first went from the Queens to the Jets. So he's out of football now?

When I was referring to positions that take a beating, other than running backs, I thought about OLs and DLs - specifically C and G on offense, and down linemen on defense - the guys in "the trenches".

Cook was one of those players who just seemed to lose it when he should have been in his prime. I wonder if it was an injury, or if he just lost his will to play the game. Athletes can suffer the same problems we all face with burn out.

 

[El Guapo]

I’m actually intrigued by what Haf can do with LVN, Wooden, Brooks, Wyatt, Brinson, Stack. These are still what I’d call all players in ascension (projected). If you get 1 or 2 of these guys playing above expectation you mostly make up for Clark. Truthfully we were 1 DT heavy with Clark here.

I hope that our speed makes up for bulk. However, to me that is wishful thinking. The same kind of wishful thinking that some of these new D-linemen are going to play key roles. Historically, defensive linemen don't contribute right away. It is a tough position to learn and also the young guy's bodies just aren't ready for playing with grown men. Most DLs don't play more than a part-time role until their second or third seasons. Even Kenny Clark wasn't a full time player, and he was a first round pick. It's a lot to expect a 6th round and UFDA to pick up the slack.

I am hopeful but cognizant that Hafley is going to have to get REALLY creative to stop the run.

My high school coach told us that we'd be champions because we were lighter and faster than everyone else...we lost every game. I lost my starting NT job mid-season because the center kept depositing my body behind where the LBs had been. There's nothing like bulk on the line.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I hope that our speed makes up for bulk. However, to me that is wishful thinking. The same kind of wishful thinking that some of these new D-linemen are going to play key roles. Historically, defensive linemen don't contribute right away. It is a tough position to learn and also the young guy's bodies just aren't ready for playing with grown men. Most DLs don't play more than a part-time role until their second or third seasons. Even Kenny Clark wasn't a full time player, and he was a first round pick. It's a lot to expect a 6th round and UFDA to pick up the slack.

I am hopeful but cognizant that Hafley is going to have to get REALLY creative to stop the run.

My high school coach told us that we'd be champions because we were lighter and faster than everyone else...we lost every game. I lost my starting NT job mid-season because the center kept depositing my body behind where the LBs had been. There's nothing like bulk on the line.

I admire your honesty. Wyatt is the guy who should logically step up. With a decent LB/Edge group, that may give him an opportunity to be a run stopper. I like UDFA Stackhouse, but yeah, it takes time.

I'm still thinking of the SB. I don't recall Philly blitzing at all. They rushed 4 with 7 in coverage. And those 4 guys gave Mahomes fits. Parsons will elevate a number of guys. The down linemen are gonna need some guys to take a step up.

 

[Voyageur]

I hope that our speed makes up for bulk. However, to me that is wishful thinking. The same kind of wishful thinking that some of these new D-linemen are going to play key roles. Historically, defensive linemen don't contribute right away. It is a tough position to learn and also the young guy's bodies just aren't ready for playing with grown men. Most DLs don't play more than a part-time role until their second or third seasons. Even Kenny Clark wasn't a full time player, and he was a first round pick. It's a lot to expect a 6th round and UFDA to pick up the slack.

I am hopeful but cognizant that Hafley is going to have to get REALLY creative to stop the run.

My high school coach told us that we'd be champions because we were lighter and faster than everyone else...we lost every game. I lost my starting NT job mid-season because the center kept depositing my body behind where the LBs had been. There's nothing like bulk on the line.

Your coach did what he could to keep you guys from feeling like you were going to get steamrolled every game. He knew how to play the psychology game.

 

[Raptorman]

Gee whiz...never heard of the guy but now that you have pointed me toward the light, I retract my entire post. Thank you...thank you...thank you...

Sarcasm should have it's own font.

 

[El Guapo]

Sarcasm should have it's own font.

It's too late at night. I sat here for almost 30sec trying to understand what you meant by saying "Sarcasm should have it's own foot."

Now that I realize that my eyes are deceiving me, I will go to bed.

 

[Raptorman]

It's too late at night. I sat here for almost 30sec trying to understand what you meant by saying "Sarcasm should have it's own foot."

Now that I realize that my eyes are deceiving me, I will go to bed.

Too late? Or too much Schitz?

 

[El Guapo]

Too late? Or too much Schitz?

...or not enough