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Who really hired Jim Bates?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Royston, Dec 21, 2005.

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  1. Royston

    Royston Cheesehead

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    I see there is some dispute on the forum about who hired Jim Bates, Mike Sherman or Ted Thompson.

    When Ted Thompson was hired as Packers new GM, Thompson made a suggestion to Sherman to hire Jim Bates as DC. Being that Sherman wasn't having any success in hiring DC's and was looking for a contract extension, he wasn't about to debate his boss on the issue.

    Sherman technically hired Bates on a strong suggestion from his boss.

    After the 2005 season is over, Ted Thompson will be making another strong suggestion to Mike Sherman. Replace Tom Rossley at OC. Expect Tom Rossley to be fired shortly after the season ends. It is also Thompson and Sherman's way out of the blame for a pathetic season.
     
  2. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    My belief is that it was...

    Bob Harlan...
     
  3. PWT36

    PWT36 Cheesehead

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    Bob Harlan has turned over full authority of the football operations to General Manager Ted Thompson. That has been his MO since becoming President of the Packers. He lets the football people run the football operation. In the old days, the executive board of directors and Packer president stuck their collective noses into Football operations of the Green Bay Packers with very bad results--losing teams. I heard at the time the Packers were looking for a defensive Co-ordinator Mike Sherman # 1 candidate was Jim Bates. A General Manager will usually go along with Head Coach choice of Assistant coaches. Regardless of who hired him the Packers were thrilled about getting him, other teams were after him including the Patriots. Jim thought highly of the Packer organization and his wife's elderly parents live in Wisconsin. It give he and his wife a chance to live close to them. It looks like it was a great decision to hire Jim Bates. I can't wait to see the Packer defense in '06 with a full year & another training camp plus some new additional defensive players and injured ones healthy under the Bates system.
     
  4. Greg C.

    Greg C. Cheesehead

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    I'd like to see the proof that Bates was really Thompson's hire. This sounds like just another attempt to discredit Sherman for anything that goes right. Not that I give anyone a whole lot of credit for hiring Bates. He was by far the best DC out there, and he just sort of fell into our laps. But it does say something that Bates thought well enough of this organization and this coaching staff to become a part of it.
     
  5. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    Greg....Sherman chose Bates. Harlan and TT have said it a number of times. "Jim Bates was strictly the choice of Mike Sherman". Royston is just one of these "johnny come latelys" that likes to bash Sherman. He is basically a P@ck66-lite. 66 at least understands football. This guy doesn't. I'm not sure anyone that understands football would try to discredit Sherman based on the Bates hire this week. Bates defense looked pretty Slowiklike.
     
  6. TOPackerFan

    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

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    When you start making assertions that make no sense, yes we do. In every situation in the NFL, the assistant coaches are the responsibility of the HC, not the GM (unless the HC and the GM are the same guy). I know it's tough for a lot of you to give Sherman any credit whatsoever, but Bates was his hire not TT's.
     
  7. yooperfan

    yooperfan Cheesehead

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    Who cares who hired him. We have him for now and the powers that be should make damn sure they do what ever it takes to keep him!!!
     
  8. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    Ok it was Sherman...

    I just have a little bit of a hard time believing it based on his past history of selecting coaches, and the fact that he was kind of fighting for Bob Slowik to stay another year as DC for the Packers..at the time...

    I always suspected that along with Sherman's demotion as GM..Harlan layed out the terms that Sherman would have to get another DC besides Slowik...

    Pure conjecture, mind you..and not proveable...

    But I wouldn't be surprised if it went down that way....
     
  9. TOPackerFan

    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

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    No he wasn't. Slowik was given the opportunity to remain on the staff as DB coach, but he was going to lose the DC position regardless. There is enough out there to criticize Sherman for without making Sh!t up.
     
  10. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    TO..

    I'm not making **** up..as you say....

    Sherman was making an argument to keep Slowik for another year because it was.."too early to judge him in that capacity as DC.." before he switched gears and offered Slowik a demotion to DB's coach...(perhaps at Harlan's insistence?)

    (I could find the documentary evidence if you want..but that's what happened...)
     
  11. TOPackerFan

    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

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    Please do, because all I've ever heard was that Slowik was offered his job back as DB coach but in no uncertain terms was he to return as DC. You probably heard this on firemikesherman.com.
     
  12. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    Pack66...I can believe that TT told Sherm to get another DC, but they have always said Sherman chose Bates. TO is right with respect to the fact that Slowik was offered the DB position, but turned it down.
     
  13. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    Jesus Christ some of you guys are stubborn. Sherman talked to Bates the year before -- wanting him to come to GB before he gave the job to Slowik. Bates told him he was happy in Miami. When it was clear that Miami was not going to retain Bates as interim HC, Sherman called Bates again. Bates said he would consider the offer but that he wanted to check out a couple of HC jobs -- he proceeded to interview in Cleveland. Much to everyone's surprise Bates did not wait until the Super Bowl game was played like expected -- picked up the phone, called Sherman and accepted the position.

    TT was not even in the job when the process started. I know many of you have very little access, but common on, even a moron can follow a timeline.

    Why do people want to continue to beat this dead horse?

    On top of everything else -- you want to believe that Sherman, Bates, Halan and Thompson are all bald-faced liars -- Why???
     
  14. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    It is all you've ever heard, because it is what happened
     
  15. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    Thanks Bruce.......end of thread.........
     
  16. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    Not so fast..DeCrackhead and Bruce!

    Sherman fires DBs coach Schottenheimer
    By BOB McGINN
    bmcginn@journalsentinel.com
    Posted: Jan. 20, 2005
    Green Bay - Green Bay Packers coach Mike Sherman made one change Thursday on his defensive coaching staff but it didnt involve coordinator Bob Slowik.

    Instead, secondary coach Kurt Schottenheimer was fired by Sherman, a source close to the situation said.

    Schottenheimer was hired by Sherman last January after Slowik was promoted from secondary coach. He was part of a dysfunctional defense that set club records for most touchdown passes allowed (33, with four more in the playoffs) and fewest interceptions (eight).

    The club made no announcement of the dismissal and the 55-year-old Schottenheimer didnt return a telephone message seeking comment.

    Sherman has been meeting with his defensive coaches most of the week but, so far at least, Schottenheimer is the only one who has lost his job.

    Schottenheimer and Sherman had coached together at Tulane University in 1983. They were friends, talking periodically by telephone over the years.

    Fifteen of Schottenheimers first 17 years as a National Football League assistant were spent under his older brother, Marty. He coached special teams for his first eight seasons, defensive backs for the next four and then served as a defensive coordinator for five in Kansas City, Washington and Detroit.

    Under Schottenheimers teaching and Slowiks coordinating, the defense blew numerous coverages and allowed 65 passes of 20 yards or more, 19 more than the four-year average with Ed Donatell as coordinator.

    There were countless missed assignments and a steady stream of penalties as the secondary never came to grips with new officiating emphasis regarding illegal contact and holding.

    Schottenheimer tried a laid-back approach with his players that fell on deaf ears.

    That group needed someone in your face, someone to kind of get after them a little bit, a source close to the team said. He wasnt a good communicator.

    The opponents passer rating of 101.5 in 17 games was the worst in the NFL and established another team record.

    Under Schottenheimer, Darren Sharper had his poorest season since 1999. Schottenheimer consistently defended the other safety, Mark Roman, even though he probably was the worst starter on one of the worst defenses in club annals.

    Starting cornerbacks Al Harris and Ahmad Carroll combined to allow 22 plays of 20 yards or more in 17 games even though Carroll didnt start until Week 6. That was the most by a pair of cornerbacks in Green Bay since Doug Evans and Craig Newsome allowed 28 1 /2 in 1995.
    Carroll and Harris were whistled for 26 penalties on defense, with 19 being accepted.

    The Packers allowed 228.9 passing yards per game to rank No. 25, their worst finish since the merger in 1970.

    Schottenheimer was hired over Lionel Washington, a decision that enraged cornerback Mike McKenzie. Washington then agreed to stay as assistant secondary coach.

    As Sherman mulls what to do about Slowik, undoubtedly he is mindful of his reputation around the league.
    I heard that rumor how can you do that after one year? a personnel director for an AFC team said Thursday. Usually you nickel and dime it a little and, with Kurt, thats maybe what theyre trying to do.

    Two years is commonplace. But one year? I dont know if you could find it. Thats unbelievable.

    Slowik, regarded by colleagues as a close friend of Shermans, had been assistant head coach and secondary coach before Sherman tabbed him to replace Donatell.

    Whats he going to do, keep firing his defensive coordinators? an NFC personnel director said last week. Ive learned this over the years. When head coaches keep firing their assistant coaches, the source of the problem is someplace else. Generally, when you start firing assistant coaches, itll always be the head coach in the end.


    A third scout said: Its like youre feeding everybody else to the alligators first and hope you get eaten last.

    On Jan. 16, 2004, Sherman fired Donatell and tight ends coach Jeff Jagodzinski. They were the first coaches fired in Green Bay since Forrest Gregg jettisoned offensive backfield / special teams coach John Hilton.

    Mikes got to be careful, an NFL assistant coach said. The next one will cost him. Pretty soon they start to say, Cant you pick em?

    The NFC personnel man didnt hesitate at all when asked whom he would hire if his team needed a defensive coordinator.

    Jim Bates, the scout said. Hes a very sound, good coach that would improve their (the Packers) defense 100%. He motivates players and they play hard for him.

    Bates had been the Dolphins defensive coordinator for five years when he was named interim head coach in early November to replace Dave Wannstedt. His defenses in Miami never finished worse than 10th. He was interviewed for the head coaching job in Cleveland.

    Vince Tobin, who is completing his first year as Shermans special assistant, has 10 years of experience as an NFL defensive coordinator, most recently for Detroit in 2001. However, two friends said Tobin, 61, was comfortable in his role and probably wouldnt be interested in the Packers coordinator job.

    Two members of coach Dennis Ericksons staff in San Francisco, defensive coordinator Willy Robinson and secondary coach Ron Lynn, are available. Robinson coached the secondary in Seattle from 1995-98 and in Pittsburgh from 2000-03.

    Meanwhile, the dismantling of the financially troubled Minnesota Vikings continued Thursday when coach Mike Tice gave wide receivers coach Charlie Baggett permission to interview for a similar job with Miami. Thus, Baggett is expected to join Scott Linehan, the Vikings former offensive coordinator who accepted the same post in Miami Wednesday.

    Ray Sherman, the Packers wide receivers coach, also interviewed for the same job in Miami. With Baggett expected to be named, Ray Sherman still might have a chance elsewhere on Nick Sabans staff.


    (The point being is that I remember Sherman equivocating and not wanting to fire his buddy Slowik...don't you remember...it took a painfully long time for Sherman to move on this? And..I haven't found them yet, but I remember seeing quotes by Sherman saying you can't judge somebody in this position in just a year..etc..referring to Slowick. )

    (Then..I think Sherman realized (perhaps at Harlan's prodding?) that he couldn't hold on to Slowick..but still wanted to offer him the DB coaching position...Now who would try to hold on to a coach as an assistant when you are about to hire a new DC?)

    Bates was a no-brainer. He was everybody's choice as DC in the NFL for those who needed one...!
     
  17. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    This article says nothing about trying to hang on to Slowik or about what really happened. It does have some folks speculating about what might happen.

    What happened was Schottenheimer was fired -- a decision that was made days before it was announced. At the same time Slowik was told that he could stay but not as coordinator, and Sherman called and offered the DC job to Bates.

    You want to interject Harlan into the formula, but he has always maintained that he had nothing to say about it. Further, that was never a role he played at any time in Green Bay. What he deserves credit for was hiring Wolf and than getting the Hell out of the way. Hell, right to the end he relied on Ron Wolf to tell him what to do – the hiring of Sherman and Thompson.

    The facts are the facts. Bates confirms the conversations with Sherman the year before and states that Sherman called him and offered the job that he accepted. Thompson stated bluntly that hiring assistants was the Head Coaches job -- "that is always the way I have seen it operate and that is how it will operate here." "All assistants will be hired by and answer to the Head Coach."

    So like I said, the only way that what you are trying to sell happened is if the Packers got together and formed a conspiracy to deceive everyone. They got their stories straight and to a man Harlan, Thompson, Sherman, Bates -- not a one of them have ever budged or equivocated from the story that Sherman offered the job to and hired Bates.

    But we are supposed to believe a bunch of conjecture and speculation by biased folks that contradicts the story of the persons that were involved and affected.

    Do you sell highlands in the everglades too?


     
  18. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    That's not what I said Bruce...

    What I said was that Sherman WANTED to keep Slowik as DC this year...

    First he offered up Shottenheimer as a sacrifice...and then hesitated....He probably felt that fans would be appeased if he offered Shottenheimer up to the crocodiles....

    I don't know why you can't remember this but after Shottenheimer was fired there were weeks that went by while people were calling for Slowik's head, and many people thought that Sherman was going to keep him at DC..and Sherman made a couple of allusions to the fact...and he seemed to be twistin in the wind...

    But then the pressure got to be too much, i guess..because he then offered Slowik the DB asst. position...(the point being that he wanted to keep Slowk around as DC..for some reason)

    Slowik knowing enough to see that if a new DC came in..he would want his own people and have a new scheme..bolted for Denver....

    Now my whole point is that Sherman WANTED to keep Slowik because he hesitated in appointing a new DC after Shottenheimer was fired...

    Now why did Sherman cave...?

    The answer is..no one knows...

    It could have been pressure from Harlan or TT...or it could just be that he saw the writing on the wall and realized he simply could not keep Bob Slowik...even though he desperately wanted to....

    (Now..you're supposed to be the bigshot Bruce..with all the connections..perhaps you can tell us the real story....)

    My point is that Sherman's INSTINCT was to try and keep SLOWIK...!
     
  19. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    Pack66....DeCrackhead???? I thought we were buds.

    Anyway thanks for wasting my time reading stuff I already knew. This article said nothing about TT hiring Bates. I already said that it was possible that TT wanted Slowik fired, but Sherman hired Bates.

    I will accept your apology on the DeCrackhead in advance. Damn I wish I would have thought of that.....Crackhead66!
     
  20. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    That's just his nature...

    from his rough and tumble childhood....

    We all kind of accept it around here.....
     
  21. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    Bates accepted the job before the Super Bowl and it was announced to the public on about Jan 23rd or 24th after all of the contract details were worked out and he signed. How in the World does this square with weeks of hanging in the wind?

    Yes, Slowik was given time to consider the offer from Sherman, but his pride would not let him accept the demotion and he was quickly snapped up by Shanahan in Denver.

    66 you are a smart guy who knows something about football, but you are grasping at straws here

     
  22. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    Hey no fair tagteaming up on me. I'm not intelligent enough to keep up.

    P@ck66, thanks for accepting my sarcastic ways, just like we have all accepted your homoerotic love for Sherman. As for you Royston....sooner or later we'll be buddies.....you'll see.....I can tell I'm breaking you down now. Please learn a little bit about football though. Ryan isn't going to put up with you trolling his site to pick up guys like P@ck66 without you AT LEAST having SOME football knowledge.

    Merry Christmas.......and I mean that.
     
  23. net

    net Cheesehead

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    I see Pack 66 has a new friend.

    Thanks, Bruce. Some folks just don't like the Packers to win, I guess.
     
  24. Ryan

    Ryan Cheesehead

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    DePack, Bruce, P@ck66 sorry about that BS the cancer that is "Chase" "Royston" "Steel Wheels" worked his way back onto the site to start crap as that's all he can ever do.

    As I don't see this thread heading anywhere positive after this crazy crap talking string it's now locked.
     
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