The Aaron Rodgers performance thread

What's our main problem?


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gopkrs

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And I believe that some players fit spots better than others do. I mean you have to put your receiver in a position to do well by going to the receivers' strengths and not just go by the playbook. I don't think we do that well yet. Be flexible with the play calling and where you put the receivers.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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It is hard for me to believe the others aren't putting in the work especially since they all have a shot at being a starting receiver. I wish (if true) that Rodgers would just play QB and not get into head games or some kind of popularity contest. If there is chemistry...well great. But that does not really happen all that much. So you have to just play football. He does complain too much.

It's hard for me to believe anyone making the kind of money these guys get paid, can't get their heads into perfecting their craft. Yet, look around the NFL, we see it all the time. Guys get distracted, get fat (literally and figuratively) and in extreme cases they turn into Antonio Brown.

So yes, its hard to believe for you and I, that some of these guys don't put in the work or they only put in the minimum amount, but that is why a guy like Lazard went from PS to #2 WR in a season. He seemed to put in the work and it payed off for him so far.

And I believe that some players fit spots better than others do. I mean you have to put your receiver in a position to do well by going to the receivers' strengths and not just go by the playbook. I don't think we do that well yet. Be flexible with the play calling and where you put the receivers.
That is up to the coaches as well as Gute, who finds the players, not Rodgers, if that is what you are implying. I seriously doubt that coaches don't try to put players in the best formations, play calls that fit their particular skill level, as they can.
 

rmontro

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Well the implication you made, intentional or otherwise, was that Rodgers might be giving an opportunity to Lazard that wasn't being given to other receivers.
If you want to know what I'm saying, you have to go back to what was originally being discussed. The question was if Rodgers is not trusting his young receivers and therefore not throwing to them. I am not taking a side in that discussion. Lazard was brought up as an example to prove that Rodgers did trust his inexperienced receivers.

What I was saying was that since Rodgers basically picked Lazard out to give a chance (he said as much), then his advocating for Lazard does not prove that he does trust his young receivers. CaptainWIMM disagreed with that, he said it does show that Rodgers trusts his young receivers. We disagree, fair enough.

But if Lazard really is such a special case, my next question would be: Why then aren't the other receivers we have putting in that kind of work? Are they just lazy, or is it a coaching failure?
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Why then aren't the other receivers we have putting in that kind of work? Are they just lazy, or is it a coaching failure?


I think if you honestly answer one question to yourself, you will have your answer. "In your lifetime, in anything that you did, whether it be fun, work, school, etc. did everyone put in an equal amount of effort/work, as well as did everyone have an equal amount of talent/knowledge before that process began?"

Signing an NFL contract doesn't guarantee success, players have to grab the opportunity and make the most of it as they can, as they try to elevate their game from their previous level. Some have the skills, mental mindset and determination to do that. Some just do not. Why one can and one can't? Many reasons why, but pointing the fingers at Aaron Rodgers and/or coaches for their failures as a WR in the NFL, with the Packers or another team, I think is viewing their failures under a very dim light.
 
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rmontro

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Many reasons why, but pointing the fingers at Aaron Rodgers and/or coaches for their failures as a WR in the NFL, with the Packers or another team, I think is viewing their failures under a very dim light.
Maybe Gute is the responsible one, if the receivers he picked aren't putting in the work. Shouldn't we be drafting receivers with a good work ethic?
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Maybe Gute is the responsible one, if the receivers he picked aren't putting in the work. Shouldn't we be drafting receivers with a good work ethic?


This is not just special to WR's, look at the Packers and any other teams draft history, it is pretty evenly spread across every position. It's just the nature of every sport, job, etc. Some make it, some don't. Some excel to the top, some are content to just be average, some fall to the bottom and can't see a way back up and voluntarily or involuntarily look for another career.

One thing I keep bringing up is the fact that none of these WR's that are failing in Green Bay go elsewhere and excel. So when I see that, its really hard to point the finger at anyone but the player himself. Now if you feel Gute and his scouts need to find guys who will always succeed, I suggest giving him all your scouting suggestions, because if you have cracked the code, he may want to know.
 
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As I said in the first place, I'm not taking sides. I'm just saying I don't know if he's putting in more work, because I'm not there.

While you have been posting that you don't take sides in this discussion several times it seems to me you're doing exactly the opposite.

In addition I wonder how you know about Rodgers sitting next to Lazard in meetings as well as favoring him when you're not there.

first paragraph: absolutely if they run the wrong route. lack of preparation is inexcusable. that would be on the coaches and preclude that player from being on the field.
i never said he doesn't throw to them just that he needs do more of it. take advantage of what they can do. with the high probability that this off-season is going to be abbreviated it's especially important.

Actually it's the receivers fault when not being prepared. While the coaches should definitely reduce those players snaps the lack of talent at the position most likely prevented them from doing it last season.

There's no reason for Rodgers to target receivers that lack talent or knowledge of the playbook.

I wish (if true) that Rodgers would just play QB and not get into head games or some kind of popularity contest.

I wish that Packers fans would stop posting BS like that.

I mean you have to put your receiver in a position to do well by going to the receivers' strengths and not just go by the playbook.

I'm quite sure that MLF tailors the game plan to the player's strengths but there's only so much he can do to make up for a lack of talent at a position.

But if Lazard really is such a special case, my next question would be: Why then aren't the other receivers we have putting in that kind of work? Are they just lazy, or is it a coaching failure?

Maybe the other receivers put in the same effort to be prepared as well but just lack talent to be productive at the NFL level.

Maybe Gute is the responsible one, if the receivers he picked aren't putting in the work.

Gutekunst definitely deserves criticism for the receiving corps lacking talent.
 

PackAttack12

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Maybe Gute is the responsible one, if the receivers he picked aren't putting in the work. Shouldn't we be drafting receivers with a good work ethic?
As PB2000 accurately alluded to, you're never going to have everyone with the same work ethic as others. Gute definitely should be held accountable for a portion of the issue at wide receiver.

I think where you and I veer ways is the implication that Rodgers is going out of his way to give opportunities to certain guys. I just vehemently disagree with that, as Rodgers wants to win just as much as anyone and wants the players on the field that give the team the best chance.
 

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I think it was obvious Rodgers was giving guys opportunities and they didn't take advantage for whatever reason and those opportunities were then directed elsewhere. I've seen guys like Allision, Ruvell Martin, Boykin, etc get opportunity in this offense over the years. Even MVS was getting plenty until he kind of proved he was very limited for whatever reason. Knowledge, ability? whatever and then he stopped producing all together and saw his opportunity go south fast for a while.
 
H

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captain has the right idea. Rodgers isn't going out of his way to make sure that a receiver is successful because he plays favorites. It was obvious that Lazard did the most with his opportunity when Rodgers did advocate for him to come into the game in the comeback win against Detroit. We probably don't win the football game without it.

Doesn't mean 12 is playing favorites. It means, like the captain alluded to, that he recognizes who is putting in the work, and who is most capable of being productive for the offense.

Others had opportunities to produce. Lazard outplayed them. I don't have a problem with the quarterback rewarding production and work ethic.
It's pretty simple. Make good route adjustments, get separation in the right way, compete well at the ball, catch the ball. Nobody's perfect. The more often you do these things, the more trust, the more often you'll see the ball.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Gute definitely should be held accountable for a portion of the issue at wide receiver.
Gute and TT, neither of them have invested the proper resources that the position should get since 2014 (Adams). I think Rodgers somewhat set both guys up for that. He has been able to do more with less for years. They also got used to a pretty good duo or trio of WR's throughout most of Rodgers career. Last year he had one really good WR and the rest were nothing but hopes and prayers.

I agree that the last 6 or so drafts haven't been very ideal and honestly I don't know how that compares to other teams. However, if the Packers organization thinks they really need to hit more on their draft picks, I would place a lot of that on the Scouts too. Gute might make the final decision, but he isn't individually scouting and visiting each and every guy, that is what the scouts are for. After that, you have to look at the coaches, are they doing their job? Are they getting the most out of their players? We haven't necessarily seen many guys leave Green Bay and be overly successful on another team, except maybe Hayward, but I attribute a lot of that to just player growth and a different system. So its hard for me to conclude its all on coaching either.
 

rmontro

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One thing I keep bringing up is the fact that none of these WR's that are failing in Green Bay go elsewhere and excel. So when I see that, its really hard to point the finger at anyone but the player himself. Now if you feel Gute and his scouts need to find guys who will always succeed, I suggest giving him all your scouting suggestions, because if you have cracked the code, he may want to know.
No need to be impertinent.
Anyway, I said maybe Gute is responsible, if the receivers aren't putting in the work. I don't know if they are putting in the work or not - I would have to hope they are, otherwise I wonder what they are doing in the NFL. But I certainly wouldn't be the only one to say the Packers receiving corp could be improved, if I were to say such a thing.

One thing's for sure, if the receivers aren't putting in the work, it's either the fault of the receiver, the coaches, or the GM/scouts who picked them.

I wonder how you know about Rodgers sitting next to Lazard in meetings as well as favoring him when you're not there.
It was widely reported at the time. I got it from TV, but here's a sample article. In it, Rodgers says "I actually sit next to him in the team meetings, and we've struck up a pretty good friendship". Nothing wrong with that, I'm just wondering if Rodgers noticed his hard work because of that. Maybe someone not in that position doesn't get that opportunity, of Rodgers lobbying for him. Maybe that person works just as hard, maybe he doesn't, maybe he does but lacks talent, as you say.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...-bay-packers-lobbied-fourth-allen-lazard-play
 

GleefulGary

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No need to be impertinent.
Anyway, I said maybe Gute is responsible, if the receivers aren't putting in the work. I don't know if they are putting in the work or not - I would have to hope they are, otherwise I wonder what they are doing in the NFL. But I certainly wouldn't be the only one to say the Packers receiving corp could be improved, if I were to say such a thing.

One thing's for sure, if the receivers aren't putting in the work, it's either the fault of the receiver, the coaches, or the GM/scouts who picked them.


It was widely reported at the time. I got it from TV, but here's a sample article. In it, Rodgers says "I actually sit next to him in the team meetings, and we've struck up a pretty good friendship". Nothing wrong with that, I'm just wondering if Rodgers noticed his hard work because of that. Maybe someone not in that position doesn't get that opportunity, of Rodgers lobbying for him. Maybe that person works just as hard, maybe he doesn't, maybe he does but lacks talent, as you say.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...-bay-packers-lobbied-fourth-allen-lazard-play
We've seen enough examples of Rodgers willingly throwing it to other receivers that I don't think it's just that.

Rodgers was great friends with Tim Crabtree. Didn't seem to effect his targets, or even play time.

Do we really think a competitor like Rodgers is going to target guys because he just likes them more?
 

rmontro

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Do we really think a competitor like Rodgers is going to target guys because he just likes them more?
Rodgers didn't vouch for Lazard simply because he likes him more. It's because he was impressed by his work ethic. In the linked article I posted, he also said he was impressed by his confidence and saying he wanted the ball (can you imagine a WR not wanting the ball?). My point was maybe there were other receivers who had good work ethic, but just weren't noticed as much because they weren't as close in Rodgers' sphere.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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No need to be impertinent.
Anyway, I said maybe Gute is responsible, if the receivers aren't putting in the work. I don't know if they are putting in the work or not - I would have to hope they are, otherwise I wonder what they are doing in the NFL. But I certainly wouldn't be the only one to say the Packers receiving corp could be improved, if I were to say such a thing.

One thing's for sure, if the receivers aren't putting in the work, it's either the fault of the receiver, the coaches, or the GM/scouts who picked them.

Wasn't trying to be impertinent at all. I think I was stating something that is pretty obvious, yet people keep saying/asking and framing their questions/comments, the same way as if the answers might have somehow changed. The WR group from 2019 was not very good. How are people not understanding and accepting that? You can blame the scouts, coaches, Gute and TT for putting them on the team/field, but as far the rest, its the job of the players to run the right routes, know the audibles, catch the ball, etc. Some did that very well, some not so well.

Funny thing, 4 of the WR's in 2019 were TT players (Adams, GMO, Kumerow and Davis)

2 were Gute's players (MVS, Shepherd).

For 2020, Adams is the only lock of those 6 to be on the roster.


My point was maybe there were other receivers who had good work ethic, but just weren't noticed as much because they weren't as close in Rodgers' sphere.
How do you define "not noticed much"? Is that a "Aaron didn't praise me, he must not like me" or "Aaron isn't throwing to me, because we aren't buddies"? I did not notice Rodgers not throw to any of the WR's that made the field last season. What did happen though is that guys like Shepherd, Alison and MVS became unreliable targets and he went to them less, but he didn't stop giving Alison and MVS chances. Shepherd stopped getting chances because he was cut and put on the PS.

Greater Performance equals more opportunities. Lower performance equals fewer opportunities. Pretty simple concept.
 
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I think the key word in the title question is "main". There's no question #12 has not played at the level of his peak for a couple years now. But I don't think anyone expected him to get better than near perfect either.
I agree that the D always needs to get better (unless they can make a top 5 type rating) and I also agree that #12 has declined, how much is the only remaining argument in my mind.

If we can summon the courage to acquire a similar level of draft and FA resources on this Offense that we've spent on Defense? There's not a doubt in my mind that we will see #12 hasn't declined nearly as much as some posters think. He's still performing at a pretty high level considering we've taken away more weapons than we've added in recent years
 

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Greater Performance equals more opportunities. Lower performance equals fewer opportunities. Pretty simple concept.
Why one would attempt to make more out if it than this, I'm not sure.

If Rodgers was ignoring Lazard and force feeding Allison, who was turning the ball over and dropping passes left and right, I could see a legitimate concern. And an argument could be made about playing favorites.

Rodgers vouching for, and feeding, a certain player that's actually getting it done is something that I cannot wrap my head around the thought of anyone having a question or an issue with it.
 

rmontro

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Wasn't trying to be impertinent at all. I think I was stating something that is pretty obvious, yet people keep saying/asking and framing their questions/comments, the same way as if the answers might have somehow changed. The WR group from 2019 was not very good.
The impertinent part was saying I apparently had some scouting secret that would guarantee a 100% success rate. The WR group was not very good, I don't think anybody is going to disagree with that. But the GM is responsible for the roster, yes? Whether he drafted him or not. Doesn't mean he isn't doing a good job, you can only fix so much at one time. But as Harry Truman said, the buck stops here.

How do you define "not noticed much"? Is that a "Aaron didn't praise me, he must not like me" or "Aaron isn't throwing to me, because we aren't buddies"?
First off, I didn't say "not noticed much", I said "not noticed as much". And in this case, I would define it as "Aaron didn't lobby for me to be put into the game so he could throw to me".

There's a school of thought that has been much discussed, that Rodgers isn't spreading the ball around enough, that he doesn't trust all his receivers, that he isn't always throwing it to the open guy, that he's trying to force it to Adams or some other favorite. That's what I'm not taking sides on. But my point all along has been that Lazard doesn't refute that idea, because Lazard is one of his favorites.

Rodgers vouching for, and feeding, a certain player that's actually getting it done is something that I cannot wrap my head around the thought of anyone having a question or an issue with it.
I have no problem at all with Rodgers vouching for or throwing to Lazard. All I've been saying throwing to Lazard doesn't prove he doesn't have his favorites. I don't know how much clearer I can make it.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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There's a school of thought that has been much discussed, that Rodgers isn't spreading the ball around enough, that he doesn't trust all his receivers, that he isn't always throwing it to the open guy, that he's trying to force it to Adams or some other favorite.

I agree with you that there is THAT school of thought, but its just that, a thought. I also don't agree with it and some of the arguments to try and prove it don't hold up.

My thought, if you watch the Packers and look at the stats (snaps, targets, receptions, etc), you see that Rodgers spread the ball around among quite a few targets last season, 15. This was also a season where we didn't see a lot of injuries at WR or TE, which could skew targets quite a bit if we had. I'm just going to list the top 10 targets. Notice anything about Lazard? He had less targets than 4 other guys not named Adams, yet his yardage was better than all 4 of them. Is this because he was a favorite of Rodgers or because he actually upped his own game and made the most out of his targets? You tell me.
  • Adams: 127 targets/997 yds
  • Aaron Jones: 68/474
  • Jimmy G: 60/447
  • MVS: 56/452
  • GMO: 55/287
  • Lazard: 52/477
  • Williams: 45/253
  • Kumerow: 21/219
  • Lewis: 19/156
  • Tonyan:15/100
 
D

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We haven't necessarily seen many guys leave Green Bay and be overly successful on another team, except maybe Hayward, but I attribute a lot of that to just player growth and a different system.

Hayward was pretty good while with the Packers as well but was deemed to be replaceable. In hindsight that was obviously a mistake.

Nothing wrong with that, I'm just wondering if Rodgers noticed his hard work because of that. Maybe someone not in that position doesn't get that opportunity, of Rodgers lobbying for him. Maybe that person works just as hard, maybe he doesn't, maybe he does but lacks talent, as you say.

In my opinion Lazard proving worthy of being trusted in practice was the only reason Rodgers lobbied for Lazard to receive more chances.

My point was maybe there were other receivers who had good work ethic, but just weren't noticed as much because they weren't as close in Rodgers' sphere.

I'm quite sure Rodgers is smart enough to realize a wide receiver having the talent and putting in the work necessary to have an impact on Sundays. Most likely none of the others proved that in practice though.

There's a school of thought that has been much discussed, that Rodgers isn't spreading the ball around enough, that he doesn't trust all his receivers, that he isn't always throwing it to the open guy, that he's trying to force it to Adams or some other favorite.

I have no problem at all with Rodgers vouching for or throwing to Lazard. All I've been saying throwing to Lazard doesn't prove he doesn't have his favorites. I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

That school of thought is completely off base though. While Rodgers, like everyone else, definitely has favorite players he doesn't target them more than they deserve because of it.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Hayward was pretty good while with the Packers as well but was deemed to be replaceable. In hindsight that was obviously a mistake.


Yes and I was referring more to players that didn't really excel in Green Bay, were cut/not resigned due to the Packers wanting to replace them with better talent. Most of those players never amounted to anything with another team. I would guess that Hayward wasn't resigned because of money, more than lack of talent.

So yes, there have been players that were cut or weren't resigned due to other factors other than just not having enough talent in the Packers eyes. Many of these players went on to play well with other teams.
 

PackAttack12

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I have no problem at all with Rodgers vouching for or throwing to Lazard. All I've been saying throwing to Lazard doesn't prove he doesn't have his favorites. I don't know how much clearer I can make it.
You call it favorites. I call it him knowing who's going to produce.

If we're going to drive down to the root of this, I guess one could say that Davante Adams is his 'favorite'. By your definition, every quarterback in the NFL has favorites.
 

GleefulGary

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Tom Brady told Howard Stern if there was a WR on the field he didn't trust, he wasn't throwing the ball his way.

Somehow Gary is gonna ignore that.
 

Mondio

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Somehow Gary is gonna ignore that.
like most of you should be doing to Gary

are the arguments even worth it anymore? Seriously, once he dug in on his "mind reading" baloney you knew he was done and had nothing of value to offer
 

PackAttack12

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Tom Brady told Howard Stern if there was a WR on the field he didn't trust, he wasn't throwing the ball his way.

Somehow Gary is gonna ignore that.
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Came here to post this exact thing.

Yet, let Rodgers do something similar, and he’s a terrible leader, bad teammate, arrogant *****, etc. lol. Whatever.
 

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