Tearing it Down

[Deleted member 6794]

Going by PFF's EFF measure (which measures pass block efficiency) the oline is pretty good at pass blocking:

Bakh is at 98.3
Runyan is at 98.4
Josh Myers at 99.0
Jenkins at 97.3
Zach Tom at 97.9
Others, not so great.

Overall though, that's fairly good in today's NFL

According to PFF the Packers rank sixth in the league in pass blocking efficiency at 88.5. Watching the games I have a hard time believing there's any truth to it.

So what?

You understand those $60 million would count against the Packers cap at some point, don't you?

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Rodgers' biggest problem isn't protection, it's performance.

From a clean pocket, the only QB's worse than him in EPA/play are P.J. Walker, Sam Ehlinger, Davis Mills, and Kenny Pickett.

Rodgers himself is the biggest problem.

Rodgers has an average time of 2.10 seconds to throw from a clean pocket. With receivers struggling to get open that's not enough time to work some magic.

However, my assertion is that with an offensive minded HC LaFleur and QB Rodgers that cap space is better utilized at WR/TE/OL.

The Packers spend more cap space on offense ($91.3 million) than on defense ($83.5 million) this season.

No stats, plays or grades regardless of who presents them will ever change Capt’s opinion.

You and other posters are so blind in their hatred for Rodgers that you don't accept any other opinion than him being the only reason for the team struggling.

Once again, I definitely agree that he hasn't come close to performing up to his potential this year but I refuse to believe he forgot how to play QB in less than a year.

As a cautionary tale for all of you who want to run him out of town as soon as possible, take a look at the QB play around the league. Most of you spoiled fans won't realize how special of a talent he was until it's too late to appreciate it and the Packers won't even feature an average starter for an extended period of time.

Eh many years everyone screamed get him a halfway decent defense and we would win in Playoffs more

The Packers never did.

And here’s an important aspect of it— if you’re getting paid like an elite QB but you can’t make plays when things aren’t ideal, you are an albatross. The other QB’s who get paid like Rodgers make a lot of plays when things aren’t breaking just right.

The Falcons are a better team than the Packers despite Ryan counting more against their cap than Rodgers despite not being with the team anymore.

The Titans actually field a defense capable of winning games.

I can’t get past paywall but either next gen or some where you can get average time before passing the ball, if what you’re saying is true I’d suspect Aaron will be significantly fast on the trigger because of having to get rid of it.

Anyone find stat or similar?

According to PFF Rodgers average time to throw has been 2.53 seconds this season, his lowest number in his entire career. It seems protection was significantly better against the Lions as it took him 3.04 seconds per attempt.

 

[tynimiller]

You and other posters are so blind in their hatred for Rodgers that you don't accept any other opinion than him being the only reason for the team struggling.

This is utter BS. I've posted NUMEROUS issues presently with the team - you however ONLY focus on the Rodgers aspects of any of those.

 

[tynimiller]

According to PFF Rodgers average time to throw has been 2.53 seconds this season, his lowest number in his entire career. It seems protection was significantly better against the Lions as it took him 3.04 seconds per attempt.

Excellent, thanks. I expected it to be or had to be one of his lowest - the pocket has been far from clean regardless of some metrics making it seem better.

 

[Magooch]

Not absolving Rodgers of blame as he's been poor but I'm not sure how valuable "clean pocket EPA" is when it doesn't have any consideration for the players the QB is meant to be throwing to. Clean pocket does not equal "Open WRs" and in that sense I suspect it would be more meaningful if it were presented as some sort of combination of clean pocket + WR separation or similar. Having a clean pocket to throw from and not facing pressure doesn't help any if there's still nobody open to throw to.

(and obviously that is not always the case; we have seen some perfectly open guys who are simply missed or not even looked at, but at the same time I've counted FAR more plays where none of our passcatchers are even getting a single step of separation from coverage)

 

[tynimiller]

Not absolving Rodgers of blame as he's been poor but I'm not sure how valuable "clean pocket EPA" is when it doesn't have any consideration for the players the QB is meant to be throwing to. Clean pocket does not equal "Open WRs" and in that sense I suspect it would be more meaningful if it were presented as some sort of combination of clean pocket + WR separation or similar. Having a clean pocket to throw from and not facing pressure doesn't help any if there's still nobody open to throw to.

(and obviously that is not always the case; we have seen some perfectly open guys who are simply missed or not even looked at, but at the same time I've counted FAR more plays where none of our passcatchers are even getting a single step of separation from coverage)

For sure! No single metric is going to shed all the light a subject needs if you will.

Plain and simple our OL play has sucked on snaps, our WR's getting open have sucked on snaps, our playcalling has sucked on snaps and Rodgers has sucked on snaps...every single one of those things all coexist in the truth. The issue is it seems more often than not this year when we have a snap, ONE of those things happens, and any one of those things can destroy a play.

 

[Dantés]

According to PFF the Packers rank sixth in the league in pass blocking efficiency at 88.5. Watching the games I have a hard time believing there's any truth to it.

You understand those $60 million would count against the Packers cap at some point, don't you?

The Falcons are a better team than the Packers despite Ryan counting more against their cap than Rodgers despite not being with the team anymore.

The Titans actually field a defense capable of winning games.

It is absolutely hilarious that you discount pff stats when it doesn't fit your priors. Beyond hysterical.

The Falcons are a better team than the Packers because the players actually execute the design of the offense.

Rodgers has gutted LaFleur's system and is in no way close to good enough to go back to playing hero ball.

 

[gopkrs]

It is absolutely hilarious that you discount pff stats when it doesn't fit your priors. Beyond hysterical.

The Falcons are a better team than the Packers because the players actually execute the design of the offense.

Rodgers has gutted LaFleur's system and is in no way close to good enough to go back to playing hero ball.

I've said it before but hiking the ball with a second or less on the clock only gives the d backs more time to check out the alignment and understand their roles. I just have to believe that is 95% Rodgers fault. And no, it seems obvious that we don't need his QB IQ to figure out the play. It is not helping him in his progressions at all. Maybe he just hasn't used his progressions for awhile because of DeVante. Which I think is partially true.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

This is utter BS. I've posted NUMEROUS issues presently with the team - you however ONLY focus on the Rodgers aspects of any of those.

Yet you have completely ignored that I have been critical of Rodgers this season as well just because I don't believe he has forgotten how to play quarterback and agree that the Packers should move on from him as soon as possible.

It is absolutely hilarious that you discount pff stats when it doesn't fit your priors. Beyond hysterical.

On the other hand it's beyond hilarious that you claim PFF to be valid when they support one of your opinions.

As mentioned before, Rodgers has an average time of only 2.10 seconds to throw from a clean pocket. That isn't a lot of time, especially considering the receivers have trouble getting open.

The Falcons are a better team than the Packers because the players actually execute the design of the offense.

While that's true my point was that it's possible to surround a quarterback with more talent than the Packers have with Rodgers despite him taking up a significant amount of cap space.

Rodgers has gutted LaFleur's system and is in no way close to good enough to go back to playing hero ball.

That's pure speculation on your part.

I've said it before but hiking the ball with a second or less on the clock only gives the d backs more time to check out the alignment and understand their roles. I just have to believe that is 95% Rodgers fault.

Actually I'm not sure how taking more time to snap the ball helps the defense figure out what the offense is trying to do. In addition I'm quite sure the inexperience of a lot of players on the unit is the main reason for it.

 

[longtimefan]

I've said it before but hiking the ball with a second or less on the clock only gives the d backs more time to check out the alignment and understand their roles. I just have to believe that is 95% Rodgers fault. And no, it seems obvious that we don't need his QB IQ to figure out the play. It is not helping him in his progressions at all. Maybe he just hasn't used his progressions for awhile because of DeVante. Which I think is partially true.

Running down play clock to 0 has been an issue since MM

What’s the common theme

 

[gopkrs]

As mentioned before, Rodgers has an average time of only 2.10 seconds to throw from a clean pocket. That isn't a lot of time, especially considering the receivers have trouble getting open.

The last two games have been so much better. The other games completely change the average time he has.

 

[Mondio]

The last two games have been so much better. The other games completely change the average time he has.

Have they? The Bills didn't blitz at all. They threw nothing at our Oline because they didn't have to and many times last game I seem to remember Rodgers avoiding a rush, setting up his beaten blocker in front to draw the defender back into the block etc. He manipulates a pocket better than anyone and people don't even see it anymore.

 

[Dantés]

1) On the other hand it's beyond hilarious that you claim PFF to be valid when they support one of your opinions.

As mentioned before, Rodgers has an average time of only 2.10 seconds to throw from a clean pocket. That isn't a lot of time, especially considering the receivers have trouble getting open.

2) While that's true my point was that it's possible to surround a quarterback with more talent than the Packers have with Rodgers despite him taking up a significant amount of cap space.

3) That's pure speculation on your part.

1) No-- I have always been consistent. PFF is a tool that I think can help form opinions; sometimes I agree and sometimes I disagree with what they're saying. You have always been the one to cite them as gospel, until now apparently.

2) You're making a point that contradicts what you're trying to prove. The Falcons have considerably less talent than the Packers. They're finding more success because they're executing an offense that's being schemed and coached by a good offensive mind. Green Bay is back to the ********, static, predictable stuff they were doing before LaFleur arrived.

3) What an inane statement. It's not speculation to notice that condensed formations, motions, under center, true play-action-- all hallmarks of LaFleur's offense-- have disappeared. Rodgers has literally said in public that he wanted some of these things to go away.

As long as you're doing the whole "I am the voice of logic; awake every morning and find my fact checks on the forum" routine, you should try a little harder to notice what's actually happening. You crafting your own narrative our of whole cloth is bad for your brand.

 

[gopkrs]

Have they? The Bills didn't blitz at all. They threw nothing at our Oline because they didn't have to and many times last game I seem to remember Rodgers avoiding a rush, setting up his beaten blocker in front to draw the defender back into the block etc. He manipulates a pocket better than anyone and people don't even see it anymore.

Really, you have not noticed that since we moved Jenkins from tackle that there is much less pressure? Because he is better than what we had at guard and he was terrible at pass pro at tackle.

 

[Mondio]

Really, you have not noticed that since we moved Jenkins from tackle that there is much less pressure? Because he is better than what we had at guard and he was terrible at pass pro at tackle.

I have noticed and I don't think it's all because our Oline is all of a sudden so much better. They are better yes, but I'd still hesitate to call them on the low side of good. Better than abysmal, yes, but like has been happening, they're looking better because of factors outside of their level of play as well.
One difference last week between others is, Rodgers did have a place to set up blockers and set up again, or escape to most times. That wasn't happening earlier in the year, so more guys are doing their jobs better.

 

[Scotland Yard]

The Packers spend more cap space on offense ($91.3 million) than on defense ($83.5 million) this season.

So, what's your point?

41.9 million of offense cap space is Rodgers 28.5 and Bakh 13.4.

Highest cap WR is Cobb 4.1M. Highest cap TE is M. Lewis 4.5M.

LaFleur and Rodgers have nothing at WR and TE. No good (non-rookie) players, no cap space.

Yet, Murphy's GM Gute and capologist Ball are wasting cap elsewhere on this crap:

11.4M OLB P. Smith
8M DE Lowry
4.7 K Crosby
4M S Savage (8M in 2023)
Sammy Watkins at any price, how is he still on the team? Is this 1987?

Ah yes, 1987 Forrest Gregg must be the formula. When they had WR and TE stocked up like this:

Wide receivers 82 Derrick Harden 48-85 Lee Morris 87 Cornelius Re**** 83 Patrick Scott 84 Wes Smith 88 Leonard Hopkins Tight ends 26-81 Craig Jay 89 Kevin Fitzgerald 86 Don Summers

You know, that might be a better group than this year. Anyway...

The Packer's 38 year-old PK Crosby takes up more cap than any WR or TE. What is the point of having Rodgers if you're going to do that?

Murphy is stupid for allowing this to happen and should be retired immediately. He is the root cause of all the disfunction.

 

[OldSchool101]

Most of you spoiled fans won't realize how special of a talent he was until it's too late to appreciate it and the Packers won't even feature an average starter for an extended period of time.

We are very spoiled I agree with that.
That said I can speak for myself and many others when I say with a degree of confidence that Aaron Rodgers has been largely a Regular Season hero, but fails to rise to the occasion in close contests and put teams away. While #12 is fantastic as an athlete, He leaves something to be desired in an important facet of Winning, it’s called inspiring those around him.

There’s an old saying that fits him perfectly. He talks a big talk… but Doesn’t walk the walk. That doesn’t mean I personally hold hatred or anything like that, I’m called to not judge him, but to give him allowance through compassion. I find myself trying to defend him on recent occasion because we all need someone to stick up for us when we’re down. Everyone is a fan when we’re at the top of our game, we find out who supports us in spirit and truth when we are struggling.

 

[gopkrs]

I have noticed and I don't think it's all because our Oline is all of a sudden so much better. They are better yes, but I'd still hesitate to call them on the low side of good. Better than abysmal, yes, but like has been happening, they're looking better because of factors outside of their level of play as well.
One difference last week between others is, Rodgers did have a place to set up blockers and set up again, or escape to most times. That wasn't happening earlier in the year, so more guys are doing their jobs better.

You sort of sift through and make a bunch of comments but don't get the point sometimes.

 

[Mondio]

You sort of sift through and make a bunch of comments but don't get the point sometimes.

They have improved. Some. They’ve also looked better than they likely have been playing because the QB sets them up for success within the play over and over again buying time and we played a couple teams that didn’t stress our oline at all in terms of blitzing and stunts.

So while they’ve “looked better”. I would hesitate to say it’s been significantly so

 

[gopkrs]

They have improved. Some. They’ve also looked better than they likely have been playing because the QB sets them up for success within the play over and over again buying time and we played a couple teams that didn’t stress our oline at all in terms of blitzing and stunts.

So while they’ve “looked better”. I would hesitate to say it’s been significantly so

They have looked a lot better at pass pro. Did not say they were really good. Before the changes; Rodgers was not making much time for himself. Anyway, I guess you just want to figure out a way to say something good about Rodgers or to not give the O line credit thereby making Rodgers look better than the way he is actually playing. I was only commenting on the stat about how much time he has had in the pocket. That the past two games has been more time and that therefore the average time in the pocket that the stats say, is not what it has been the past two games.

 

[Mondio]

They have looked a lot better at pass pro. Did not say they were really good. Before the changes; Rodgers was not making much time for himself. Anyway, I guess you just want to figure out a way to say something good about Rodgers or to not give the O line credit thereby making Rodgers look better than the way he is actually playing. I was only commenting on the stat about how much time he has had in the pocket. That the past two games has been more time and that therefore the average time in the pocket that the stats say, is not what it has been the past two games.

I'd say I've said exactly what i've been saying much of this year and priors. When one parts starts helping out the other part they all look better.

Sorry for saying something good about Rodgers, I know it's not en vogue right now, but he is an absolute master at manipulating a pocket and his blockers. So he doesn't need the best oline in the world, but he can't have one that is letting free rushers up the middle and around an edge every other play.

I did see better oline play last week. But it's not like they achieved some new level. I also saw how Rodgers was able to manipulate that into more time. He didn't play well overall, but I guess it's a sin to notice the prior. I blame on the Rodgers' lover locked inside of me.

But at the same time on that INT for BakhT, none of you give any credence to just how tough that pass was with the Dline practically in his face before he had a chance to throw from pressure right up the middle. Without pressure and he throws the pass that short, i'd be on him more. With a 300lber in his face, running away from the play, having to loft it up over the LOS to get to his tackle, but not too far out because Bakht isn't running underneath anything and without being able to do any of it from a set position back across his body? I'd love to see videos of all you guys trying that one, without a pass rush LOL

How well did we run block? how many short yardage plays did we win? how many 2 yard or less runs did we have again? I'd temper my enthusiasm for the Oline. and this was against the worst D in the league.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The last two games have been so much better. The other games completely change the average time he has.

Actually Rodgers only had significant more time to throw the ball vs. the Lions. Unfortunately he wasn't able to take advantage of it.

1) No-- I have always been consistent. PFF is a tool that I think can help form opinions; sometimes I agree and sometimes I disagree with what they're saying. You have always been the one to cite them as gospel, until now apparently.

I haven't considered them as gospel at any point either.

2) You're making a point that contradicts what you're trying to prove. The Falcons have considerably less talent than the Packers. They're finding more success because they're executing an offense that's being schemed and coached by a good offensive mind. Green Bay is back to the ********, static, predictable stuff they were doing before LaFleur arrived.

The Falcons have significantly more talent at pass catchers with Kyle Pitts and Drake London than the Packers have.

3) What an inane statement. It's not speculation to notice that condensed formations, motions, under center, true play-action-- all hallmarks of LaFleur's offense-- have disappeared.

As I've pointed out in a previous post in this thread the percentage of play action used on pass attempts hasn't dropped this season compared to the previous two. While the percentage of Rodgers lining up under center has diminished this year (15.8% compared to 22.4% last season and 25.3% in 2020) his thumb injury might be a reason for it. In addition they never used it all that much to begin with.

As long as you're doing the whole "I am the voice of logic; awake every morning and find my fact checks on the forum" routine, you should try a little harder to notice what's actually happening. You crafting your own narrative our of whole cloth is bad for your brand.

I wasn't aware I had my own brand around here.

So, what's your point?41.9 million of offense cap space is Rodgers 28.5 and Bakh 13.4.Highest cap WR is Cobb 4.1M. Highest cap TE is M. Lewis 4.5M.

LaFleur and Rodgers have nothing at WR and TE. No good (non-rookie) players, no cap space.

Yet, Murphy's GM Gute and capologist Ball are wasting cap elsewhere on this crap:

11.4M OLB P. Smith
8M DE Lowry
4.7 K Crosby
4M S Savage (8M in 2023)
Sammy Watkins at any price, how is he still on the team? Is this 1987?

My point is that the Packers spend a lot of cap space on offense as well. Unfortunately their two most expensive players on that side of the ball either don't perform up to expectations (Rodgers) or can't stay healthy enough to consistently stay on the field (Bakhtiari). It's close to impossible to overcome that with a hard cap in place.

As a side note, I don't believe Preston's cap number is a huge issue, agree with the other players you listed though.

The Packer's 38 year-old PK Crosby takes up more cap than any WR or TE. What is the point of having Rodgers if you're ing to do that?

I definitely agree the front office hasn't done enough to surround Rodgers with adequate talent at pass catchers. I don't know how long you have been around but I have been pretty adamant about Crosby being overpaid for several years.

That said I can speak for myself and many others when I say with a degree of confidence that Aaron Rodgers has been largely a Regular Season hero, but fails to rise to the occasion in close contests and put teams away. While #12 is fantastic as an athlete, He leaves something to be desired in an important facet of Winning, it’s called inspiring those around him.

Rodgers has performed at a higher level than Brady in the postseason. The reason he doesn't have all those championships is that the Packers weren't able to put a decent defense on the field for most of his tenure.

 

[ARPackFan]

Never underestimate the ability of Mike McCarthy to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Called it! WTF was he doing going for it on forth down in OT.

 

[milani]

Called it! WTF was he doing going for it on forth down in OT.

I do not question going for it. Our D was gassed. On 3rd down all he had to do was pound it once or twice.

 

[Schultz]

Back in the day I always felt McCarthy coached not to lose instead of to win. He probably wishes he did that today.

 

[PackAttack12]

As I've pointed out in a previous post in this thread the percentage of play action used on pass attempts hasn't dropped this season compared to the previous two. While the percentage of Rodgers lining up under center has diminished this year (15.8% compared to 22.4% last season and 25.3% in 2020) his thumb injury might be a reason for it. In addition they never used it all that much to begin with.

Yep.