Studs and Duds: Pack in Steeltown

[Heyjoe4]

All great points. Bullard and Williams have struggled this year. Williams I think is having a bit of a sophomore slump, but certainly played better on Sunday night. Bullard has finally been showing why he was drafted. Both players have had their down moments this year but are hopefully starting to trend in the right direction.

Good stuff EG. Williams is capable of making huge plays, like the pass defended against Metcalf that certainly would have been a TD. Bullard has also had a slow start, but is playing much better now. Nothing wrong with the S group as it stands.

The CB group though is a disaster area. Valentine is arguably the best - he had a nice defended pass to Metcalf at the goal line that would have been a TD. Nixon just keeps getting worse, and Hobbs is looking to be an expensive mistake, much as I hate to see these things.

Maybe Gluten can get a decent, veteran CB before the deadline, but it would require some serious magic. Gluten has no draft picks to offer so it would have to be a player. But who? I don't know. If he can't get it fixed this season, it's priority #1 in the offseason. I don't blame Gluten. There were other needs like Banks on the OL. And FA wasn't exactly rich in talent. And Hobbs looked like a solid pickup - an example of first thought wrong.

 

[formerlybis]

Half-dud: the drive after the fumble recovery, and I'd like to get others' opinions on this. We got the ball at 5:07, up 13, and PGH with 2 timeouts left. We run for 14 on the first play, to the 14. Run for 4 (PGH timeout), run for 3 (PGH last timeout), incomplete pass (a throw away - did not see an open receiver over the middle, and did not just take a meaningless sack that would have kept the clock moving). Kick the FG at 3:59 to go up 16.

For me, I understand the game management argument - drain their timeouts and then the worst-case scenario (a low-probability one, to boot) is OT. This is what most coaches do in this situation, but going up 3 scores there ends the game for sure. 4 minutes is a lot of time left, even with no timeouts, and PGH did end up scoring before the two minute warning. PGH is selling out to stop the run, especially on 1st and 2nd down, so a play action pass would have a good chance of working, and if it wasn't there, just go down inbounds and get them to take their timeout anyway.

Had PGH converted the two-pointer, things could've gotten a little sweatier. Assuming recovering the onside kick and no first down, you're punting to Aaron Rodgers with around 25 seconds or so left (clock stops after the first play via 2-minute warning). Not likely, but not completely over.

We jsut don't have that step-on-the-throat mentality in us. It's also not always the smart thing, but I'd rather err on the side of aggressive - you're going to get at least the 16 point lead anyway (barring a turnover).

 

[tynimiller]

Guys I think my listing might have been taken a touch out of context...Doubs and Rasheed are easily the best two players to the Packers and Love that are pending FAs...but let's go down the road of potential ways to do this....

There is a world they could cut Jenkins to save $20M....and make it work to resign Rasheed and Doubs and build then from mainly draft and minimums....

OR

Honestly you could cut Jenkins, let Rasheed walk - let Doubs explore free agency...plan on between Belton, Tom, Morgan, Kinnard or someone else you have both tackles and back up secured post-Rasheed... resign Quay and Rhyan both and likley still have money to maybe consider Enagbare if on the right deal...or sign Doubs to maybe just a one year deal like Watson use small void year and roll essentially with same crew minus Jenkins and Rasheed....

If you sign Doubs and Rasheed...you for sure likely have to let Quay walk, Rhyan walk and still likely let Jenkins go for the savings...

I see it as two very valid roads, the gamble is which one is the stronger team....


Then you also have to factor in once the new league year starts would they rather extend Kraft before ANYTHING else....

 

[mradtke66]

Reed will likely be back this season, and there's a good argument that he's the most valuable WR.

I'm not so sure about that. Reed to me is an ideal slot receiver that wins more with scheme that route running. I'm not sure who is our most valuable receiver today.

IMO Golden is underutilized.

Wouldn't surprise me if this is the team bringing him along slowly as a rookie. So long as the general trend is more as the season goes on, we're fine.

There are just so many solid targets, it's hard to get targets to all the other guys not named Kraft or Doubs.

I really expect Watson to get more targets period. IIRC, he had zero drops last year. I'm not prepared to declare to declare him back, but I would expect him to steal targets from Doubs and do so quickly.

I argue for keeping Rasheed Walker because of the importance of the blind-side OT, and I don't think Morgan can offer as much as Walker.

This is hard to judge. Morgan has been an excellent pass protector at G, but less so in the running game. I would prefer we just put Rhyan at guard and let him beat people up, freeing Morgan to play T. Of course that means we're either taking a small risk letting Walker go or Walker gets hurt. I'm not hoping for either.

 

[gopkrs]

Half-dud: the drive after the fumble recovery, and I'd like to get others' opinions on this. We got the ball at 5:07, up 13, and PGH with 2 timeouts left. We run for 14 on the first play, to the 14. Run for 4 (PGH timeout), run for 3 (PGH last timeout), incomplete pass (a throw away - did not see an open receiver over the middle, and did not just take a meaningless sack that would have kept the clock moving). Kick the FG at 3:59 to go up 16.

For me, I understand the game management argument - drain their timeouts and then the worst-case scenario (a low-probability one, to boot) is OT. This is what most coaches do in this situation, but going up 3 scores there ends the game for sure. 4 minutes is a lot of time left, even with no timeouts, and PGH did end up scoring before the two minute warning. PGH is selling out to stop the run, especially on 1st and 2nd down, so a play action pass would have a good chance of working, and if it wasn't there, just go down inbounds and get them to take their timeout anyway.

Had PGH converted the two-pointer, things could've gotten a little sweatier. Assuming recovering the onside kick and no first down, you're punting to Aaron Rodgers with around 25 seconds or so left (clock stops after the first play via 2-minute warning). Not likely, but not completely over.

We jsut don't have that step-on-the-throat mentality in us. It's also not always the smart thing, but I'd rather err on the side of aggressive - you're going to get at least the 16 point lead anyway (barring a turnover).

I'm going to agree with you. It felt like we were not really going all out on that series. Certainly Jordan should have just slid instead of throwing the ball away though (or found Golden). But philosophically speaking, I don't think draining their timeouts is as important as most seem to think. Sometimes it comes down to that. But usually you just have to stop them anyway. They are in 4 down territory and you have to stop them. They have plenty of ways to stop the clock. So, you go for the kill and don't worry so much about their timeouts imho. Having a 16 point lead is certainly great but 3 scores up is best.

 

[mradtke66]

If you sign Doubs and Rasheed...you for sure likely have to let Quay walk, Rhyan walk and still likely let Jenkins go for the savings...

Not a certainty, just exceedingly likely. We don't know the structure of any of these hypothetical deals.

 

[tynimiller]

Not a certainty, just exceedingly likely. We don't know the structure of any of these hypothetical deals.

We do know enough of the cap situation, the only way that isn't how it plays out is if by year 2029 and 2030 you have MASSIVE amounts of voided money on the books even if they are for guys in other uniforms.

 

[mradtke66]

We do know enough of the cap situation, the only way that isn't how it plays out is if by year 2029 and 2030 you have MASSIVE amounts of voided money on the books even if they are for guys in other uniforms.

See, I hate absolutes...

It doesn't have to be void years. More signing bonus over more years (that aren't voids) would also work. We could extend Love in a couple of years to make room or any one else with a big number.

Not that any of these are necessarily good ideas, just possible ones.

 

[tynimiller]

See, I hate absolutes...

It doesn't have to be void years. More signing bonus over more years (that aren't voids) would also work. We could extend Love in a couple of years to make room or any one else with a big number.

Not that any of these are necessarily good ideas, just possible ones.

Oh Love will have to be extended in a couple years for sure.

 

[OldSchool101]

Not really a Dud though as he still scored a TD. Me thinks opponents are keying on Jacobs in order to make us 1-dimensional. However they forget that GB actually has a Top 7 Passing game and top 5 scoring Offense. It’s our Run game that’s been somewhat lackluster this year. We do just enough to take some focus off the passing game. Also we’ll gladly exchange Run for Pass while we have the best Redzone Weapon in the NFL. Tucker Kraft (104) leads JaMar Chase (79) yards. Tucker (5) is tied for 3rd most Redzone TD’s with Davante Adams. They are right behind TD leaders Dallas Goedert (6) and Amon Ra (6) in Redzone TD’s. So you focus on the Snake and get Stung by a Scorpion.

I mean, he got stuffed for 0-2 yard gains multiple times and averaged 2.5 on 13 carries on a night when Wilson averaged 5.5. To me that's a dud.

 

[milani]

Half-dud: the drive after the fumble recovery, and I'd like to get others' opinions on this. We got the ball at 5:07, up 13, and PGH with 2 timeouts left. We run for 14 on the first play, to the 14. Run for 4 (PGH timeout), run for 3 (PGH last timeout), incomplete pass (a throw away - did not see an open receiver over the middle, and did not just take a meaningless sack that would have kept the clock moving). Kick the FG at 3:59 to go up 16.

For me, I understand the game management argument - drain their timeouts and then the worst-case scenario (a low-probability one, to boot) is OT. This is what most coaches do in this situation, but going up 3 scores there ends the game for sure. 4 minutes is a lot of time left, even with no timeouts, and PGH did end up scoring before the two minute warning. PGH is selling out to stop the run, especially on 1st and 2nd down, so a play action pass would have a good chance of working, and if it wasn't there, just go down inbounds and get them to take their timeout anyway.

Had PGH converted the two-pointer, things could've gotten a little sweatier. Assuming recovering the onside kick and no first down, you're punting to Aaron Rodgers with around 25 seconds or so left (clock stops after the first play via 2-minute warning). Not likely, but not completely over.

We jsut don't have that step-on-the-throat mentality in us. It's also not always the smart thing, but I'd rather err on the side of aggressive - you're going to get at least the 16 point lead anyway (barring a turnover).

I am sure MLF has emphasized ball protection and game management because of what nearly happened in Dallas. But on the 2nd and 6 they should have ran the ball. You use clock or Pitt has to use another timeout. And the Steelers were a little gassed at that time. Give it to Jacobs or Wilson with a 2 TE set. And maybe even do it on 3rd down if it gains nothing. You are going to get a 16 point lead with a FG anyway but do it with less on the clock so it really puts Pittsburgh on the shelf. 2 incompletions gave them an extra timeout and another 45 seconds.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Not a certainty, just exceedingly likely. We don't know the structure of any of these hypothetical deals.

If the decision had to be made today, I'd like to see Rasheed Walker and Doubs sign, meaning Quay is not coming back. A lot will happen between now and when those decisions have to be made.

And as for Jenkins, I don't see him playing in GB next season. He's been a great, versatile OL for the team. But he's getting old(er) and another contract is too risky.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I'm not so sure about that. Reed to me is an ideal slot receiver that wins more with scheme that route running. I'm not sure who is our most valuable receiver today.



Wouldn't surprise me if this is the team bringing him along slowly as a rookie. So long as the general trend is more as the season goes on, we're fine.



I really expect Watson to get more targets period. IIRC, he had zero drops last year. I'm not prepared to declare to declare him back, but I would expect him to steal targets from Doubs and do so quickly.



This is hard to judge. Morgan has been an excellent pass protector at G, but less so in the running game. I would prefer we just put Rhyan at guard and let him beat people up, freeing Morgan to play T. Of course that means we're either taking a small risk letting Walker go or Walker gets hurt. I'm not hoping for either.

All very good points. Thanks for adding to the discussion!

Based on Sunday, Watson is ready to play now, no limitations. What a gas to have him and Golden lining up on opposite sides of the LOS!

And bringing Golden along at a slower pace makes sense. His targets will gradually increase. Given the talent among the receivers (incl Kraft), there's no rush.

 

[OldSchool101]

I am sure MLF has emphasized ball protection and game management because of what nearly happened in Dallas. But on the 2nd and 6 they should have ran the ball. You use clock or Pitt has to use another timeout. And the Steelers were a little gassed at that time. Give it to Jacobs or Wilson with a 2 TE set. And maybe even do it on 3rd down if it gains nothing. You are going to get a 16 point lead with a FG anyway but do it with less on the clock so it really puts Pittsburgh on the shelf. 2 incompletions gave them an extra timeout and another 45 seconds.

I noticed this also. Clock was more important than points there. There have been several games where I’d consider just laying at the 1 foot line and churning :40 sec when there’s only around 2 minutes left. There are situations where you take the FG and burn 3 Running plays at the Opponent 1 yard line.. Make them use a last timeout and churn :40+:40 sec and call a timeout with :40 left on the clock and no timeouts, then kick A FG and go up 10 points and leave them :40 sec to score 2X. Verses 14 points spread and a full 2 minutes + timeout left.

It’s certainly an arguable point. Although the TD does make it 2 TD’s to tie best case. In our game we had 16 points (because of an Doubs 2-pt play succeeded) and so with 14 points the opponent could potentially do a 2pt try and beat you with 2 scores anyway (similar to 10 points)
My thinking here was 16pt vs 14pt is an advantage spot. Had we been up 7pts? I’m laying down at the 1ft lin and going up 10 points and giving them :35-40 sec to work with no timeouts.

 

[milani]

If the decision had to be made today, I'd like to see Rasheed Walker and Doubs sign, meaning Quay is not coming back. A lot will happen between now and when those decisions have to be made.

And as for Jenkins, I don't see him playing in GB next season. He's been a great, versatile OL for the team. But he's getting old(er) and another contract is too risky.

Not sure about Jenkins. The $$ factor in of course. And injuries usually happen when your feet start to slow down. How long did we keep Bulaga before he left?

 

[Heyjoe4]

Not sure about Jenkins. The $$ factor in of course. And injuries usually happen when your feet start to slow down. How long did we keep Bulaga before he left?

I don't know about Bulaga. Jenkins will be expensive, and probably too expensive for the Packers. The risk/reward is out of whack.

 

[mradtke66]

Not sure about Jenkins. The $$ factor in of course. And injuries usually happen when your feet start to slow down. How long did we keep Bulaga before he left?

Anything could happen, but Jenkins is in an odd place. I presume he's gone baring a lot of odd circumstances.

1. We rarely give out 3rd contracts to linemen. Bhak was the last one and (pre-injury) was the kind of special player you risk it on.
2. He's way over priced for a center.
3. The contract structure looks like it was always the plan to cut or extend after 2025.
4. Plays off of 1, but he's getting old.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Anything could happen, but Jenkins is in an odd place. I presume he's gone baring a lot of odd circumstances.

1. We rarely give out 3rd contracts to linemen. Bhak was the last one and (pre-injury) was the kind of special player you risk it on.
2. He's way over priced for a center.
3. The contract structure looks like it was always the plan to cut or extend after 2025.
4. Plays off of 1, but he's getting old.

This is a fair assessment. It's hard to say so long to good players who have spent their careers in GB. But age and a third contract, and the likely price, will be out of the Packers' range. I just don't see Jenkins back in G&G. I wish him well - he has been a very versatile and talented player for the Packers.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

This is a fair assessment. It's hard to say so long to good players who have spent their careers in GB. But age and a third contract, and the likely price, will be out of the Packers' range. I just don't see Jenkins back in G&G. I wish him well - he has been a very versatile and talented player for the Packers.

I hate to see it also, but I think it's inevitable. As we have seen with Josh Sitton, T.J. Lang, Brian Bulaga, Cory Linsley and others, the Pack cuts ties with older O-lineman when their contract expires. Jenkins will get another contract somewhere else just like those guys, but Green Bay will go young again at center and restart the cycle.

EJ has been a solid asset for this team for a long time, I wish him and his family all the best.

 

[milani]

This is a fair assessment. It's hard to say so long to good players who have spent their careers in GB. But age and a third contract, and the likely price, will be out of the Packers' range. I just don't see Jenkins back in G&G. I wish him well - he has been a very versatile and talented player for the Packers.

Maybe the Raiders will sign him.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Tucker Kraft is in the process of becoming one of the league's premier tight ends.

In what way is he currently not?

 

[BrokenArrow]

Then don't play him

Why are you telling me that? I don't have any say.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

In what way is he currently not?

He's playing great now, the key is to continue that over the course of multiple seasons.

Short of injury, I expect that to be the case.

 

[Half Empty]

Why are you telling me that? I don't have any say.

I just figured that, if you were making excuses for him, the solution would be not to use injured players.

 

[Krabs]

Good stuff EG. Williams is capable of making huge plays, like the pass defended against Metcalf that certainly would have been a TD. Bullard has also had a slow start, but is playing much better now. Nothing wrong with the S group as it stands.

The CB group though is a disaster area. Valentine is arguably the best - he had a nice defended pass to Metcalf at the goal line that would have been a TD. Nixon just keeps getting worse, and Hobbs is looking to be an expensive mistake, much as I hate to see these things.

The Hobbs signing was a complete head scratcher to me. He's never been healthy a single year of his career and played in the slot and not really that well. We sign him to big money and try to move him to the outside. I can only think that this move has Richie B. written all over it. Speaking of which, Nixon came along from the Raiders and Richie B. as well. Do they know the raiders stink and especially on defense? Sure, Jacobs is a beast, but those guys are duds.

Maybe Gluten can get a decent, veteran CB before the deadline, but it would require some serious magic. Gluten has no draft picks to offer so it would have to be a player. But who? I don't know. If he can't get it fixed this season, it's priority #1 in the offseason. I don't blame Gluten. There were other needs like Banks on the OL. And FA wasn't exactly rich in talent. And Hobbs looked like a solid pickup - an example of first thought wrong.

The guys that come to mind for me are Fuller, Gilmore and Samuel. I believe both Ballentine and Hollman are available. I'm not sure I would want to explore them any further. They just might have some familiarity. Pretty much, old guys that have been beaten up, or young guys that couldn't hack it. Might still be better options than what we have.