PASS RUSH..PASS RUSH..PASS RUSH

[Darryl Tincknell]

Boy do we need a pass rush and was it painfully obvious tonight. You cannot leave a QB standing in the pocket with that much time to survey the field as GB did tonight with Big Ben. Compounding that is our young defensive backs trying to hold coverages. Unbelievably frustrating watching Roethlisberger either dumping off to Bell or waiting for Brown to break free and we have no one near the QB. Perry really needs to start earning that huge paycheck,Brooks played well in spurts(exactly what you would expect out of a 33 year old with a bad back)Fackrell is a non factor and is way too soft IMO. Although this has nothing to do with rushing the passer I have to bring up Davon House. I am shocked how terrible he is playing. I really thought he’d come in and solidify this young secondary a little bit but he’s the biggest liability back there. Receivers run by him like he’s standing still.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Boy do we need a pass rush and was it painfully obvious tonight. You cannot leave a QB standing in the pocket with that much time to survey the field as GB did tonight with Big Ben.

Not having Matthews and Clark was a big factor.

 

[Mike McCarthy]

Not having Matthews and Clark was a big factor.

Clay was where he usually is when the chips are down and the team needs him.....spectating.

 

[pizzle]

The lack of a pass rush is essentially the reason why we are a bad team. It really is.

We run a 3-4 scheme. So does the Steelers. They have Cameron Heyward, who is better as a pass rusher than any of our defensive lineman. We have a bunch of gap-plugging run defenders on the D-Line. They have Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt at OLB, two young guys on rookie contracts with athleticism to scream/bend off the edge and drop in coverage. That play Watt made on Nelson was eye-opening.

And what do we have? Clay and Nick. They are the two highest paid players on our defense not named Mike Daniels. And they are definitely the least productive. That is the ****** foundation this D is built on. We're trying to mask a past-his-prime team favorite/media darling in Matthews as if he's still a stud and getting rotational player performance out of a guy we just gave $60M to. Perry is so limited as an OLB. He has one thing-a bullrush to set the edge in the run game and get to the QB. That is it. But he's our "premier EDGE guy" now. He piles up garbage sacks against crappy offensive tackles and gets near double digits and the Packers act like that's good enough. As we saw last night, it's not.

Because of Clay and Nick, our defense just doesn't work. We have a thumper in Jake Ryan who can't see the field much because he is too much of a liability against most 11 personnel matchups. He's only valuable against teams like Seattle and Dallas that like to use heavy-set formations often. Blake Martinez is a very solid run-defending ILB, but is easily taken advantage of against the pass. He's just not fast enough to keep up with pass catchers in man or zone coverage.

What makes it worse is that the zone blitz scheme is predicated on having smart, hybrid secondary players that can make plays on the ball when a QB is under duress at the hands of the linebacking unit. But our linebacker core as a whole does not have the athleticism to create pressure. No one consistently beats lineman 1-on-1. No one. And we have a young, inconsistent secondary that is always banged up and out of position. Therefore, our pass rush/pass defense is a mess.

Any time we play a team with a veteran QB and decent offensive weapons, we get torched. Though it is time for Dom to go, the main person responsible for this is Ted. We don't have enough of the specific talent required to effectively run a 3-4 zone blitz defense. I want him gone yesterday. This old fart passed up on Watt and gambled on King/Biegel. King was schooled by Antonio Brown and Biegel is a non-factor. Meanwhile Watt was knocking the **** out of Hundley and made multiple plays out in space, along with a guy like Shazier (a speedy ILB) who we should have jumped up to get when he was coming out of Ohio State. Think about this-Carl Lawson has 7 sacks for the Bengals right now. We passed on him for Biegel. Peppers has 8.5 sacks for Carolina. THAT IS WHY WE HAVE NO PASS RUSH. Ted is a ******* who is making ALL THE WRONG DECISIONS ON PERSONNEL!!!

The lack of pass rush is why our defense truly stinks. Even with HHCD being a no-show this season and all the secondary problems. At least when we had Peppers we could get a couple timely pressures to keep the opponent a little honest. We're dead meat right now. And it's because our GM is a stubborn fool who doesn't value the type of athletic front seven defenders that are needed to create a pass rush in today's NFL.

Until we have a GM that will stop putting lipstick on a pig and get rid of our DC who clearly has been figured out by the rest of the league we can't win when it matters, even with AR12.

 

[OldSchool101]

Once again, this is a culmination from eating off the bottom of the draft for 7 consecutive years, the reluctancy of using FA to build your team and being generally unsuccessful in resigning the players whom you’ve invested and m molded into this style Defense.

It’s not all that complicated when we look at the personnel exchange, especially the past couple of years. We lose Peppers who will easily record double digit sacks this year on a minimal salary and replace him with who??
We 100% know CM3 is on the age decline and counter it with who??

Pass rush should have been the priority once again in 2017 and even many of us in here called that. Yet we wait until round 4? (Sorry Vince you’re probably a nice guy) Then grab Ahmad Brooks for 3M?? Cmon.
Brooks is a good rotational guy not picking on him, we should’ve had 2-3 Ahmad Brooks for depth for what he makes, but where did we invest to improve our pass rush?
We didn’t we went TE? TWICE!? Not a good trade off for a team who routinely has lost Championships because they are 2-3 Defensive playmakers away from sealing the deal.
I’m not blaming Ted for Martellus leaving, I’m am blaming him for investing at TE and not a decent Edge rusher.
When I look around the league I see other successful teams who use FA to solidify positions of superimportance, like RB or QB depth or WR or OLB or OG

 

[Mondio]

The lack of a pass rush is essentially the reason why we are a bad team. It really is.

We run a 3-4 scheme. So does the Steelers. They have Cameron Heyward, who is better as a pass rusher than any of our defensive lineman. We have a bunch of gap plugging run defenders on the D-Line. They have Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt at OLB, two young guys on rookie contracts with athleticism to scream/bend of the edge and drop in coverage. That play Watt made on North was eye-opening.

And what do we have? Clay and Nick. They are the two highest paid players on our defense not named Mike Daniels. And they are the definitely the least productive. That is the ****** foundation this D is built on. We're trying to mask a past-his-prime team favorite in Matthews and getting rotational player performance out of a guy we just gave $60M to. Perry is so limited as an OLB. He has one thing-a bullrush to set the edge in the run game and get to the QB. That is it. But he's our "premier EDGE guy" now. He piles up garbage sacks against crappy offensive tackles and gets near double digits and the Packers act like that's good enough. As we saw last night, it's not.

Because of Clay and Nick, our defense just doesn't work. We have a thumper in Jake Ryan who can't see the field much because he is too much of a liability against most 11 personnel matchups. He's only valuable against teams like Seattle and Dallas that like to use heavy-set formations often. Blake Martinez is a very solid run-defending ILB, but is easily taken advantage of against the pass. He's just not fast enough to keep up with pass catchers in man or zone coverage.

What makes it worse is that the zone blitz scheme is predicated on having smart, hybrid secondary players that can make plays on the ball when a QB is under duress at the hands of the ljnebacking unit. But our linebacker core as a whole does not have the athleticism to create pressure. And we have a young, inconsistent secondary that is always banged up and out of position. Therefore, our pass rush/pass defense is a mess.

Any time we play a team with a veteran QB and decent offensive weapons, we get torched. Though it is time for Dom to go, the main person responsible for this is Ted. I want him gone yesterday. This old fart passed up on Watt and gambled on King/Biegel. King was schooled by Antonio Brown and Biegel is a non-factor. Meanwhile Watt was knocking the **** out of Hundley and made multiple plays out in space, along with a guys like Shazier (a speedy ILB) who we should have jumped up to get when he was coming out of Ohio State.

The lack of pass rush is why our defense truly stinks. Even with HHCD being a no-show this season and all the secondary problems. At least when we had Peppers we could get a couple timely pressures to keep the opponent a little honest. We're dead meat right now. And it's because our GM is a stubborn fool who doesn't value the type of athletic front seven defenders that are what need to create a pass rush in today's NFL.

Until we have a GM that will stop putting lipstick on a pig and get rid of our DC who clearly has been figured out by the rest of the league we can't win when it matters, even with AR12.

I agree the lack of rush is a problem. But you're so myopic in your evaluation. We had a young screaming edge rusher once too. Then he became a FA and it was time to invest in him or let him walk. So Watt earns something like that and ends up yet like his brother all the time. Think it's going to hurt the Steelers? Or will they get roster and cap exemptions to just go sign another?

Kenny Clark is one of the best Dlineman in the league already and you say he can't get any? Oh BTW he was out last night. Think the Steelers look different without Cameron on the field?

King made as many plays as Watt did, and one of the 2 he made should have probably hurt the Steelers at the end with an automatic 1st down and 15 more yards.

 

[Mondio]

Once again, this is a culmination from eating off the bottom of the draft for 7 consecutive years, the reluctancy of using FA to build your team and being generally unsuccessful in resigning the players whom you’ve invested and m molded into this style Defense.

It’s not all that complicated when we look at the personnel exchange, especially the past couple of years. We lose Peppers who will easily record double digit sacks this year on a minimal salary and replace him with who??
We 100% know CM3 is on the age decline and counter it with who??

Pass rush should have been the priority once again in 2017 and even many of us in here called that. Yet we wait until round 4? (Sorry Vince you’re probably a nice guy) Then grab Ahmad Brooks for 3M?? Cmon.
Brooks is a good rotational guy not picking on him, we should’ve had 2-3 Ahmad Brooks for depth for what he makes, but where did we invest to improve our pass rush?
We didn’t we went TE? TWICE!? Not a good trade off for a team who routinely has lost Championships because they are 2-3 Defensive playmakers away from sealing the deal.
I’m not blaming Ted for Martellus leaving, I’m am blaming him for investing at TE and not a decent Edge rusher.
When I look around the league I see other successful teams who use FA to solidify positions of superimportance, like RB or QB depth or WR or OLB or OG

Homework assignment. Bring up a list of 2017 FA edge rushers and their rankings and what they signed for. Bring us the availability and selection of who we could have had. And peppers might get double digit sacks this year, but he couldn't for us in the past few. What does that tell you? So we bring him back and pay him whatever he wants, what changes? History shows he wouldn't be getting 10+ sacks here.

 

[swhitset]

Homework assignment. Bring up a list of 2017 FA edge rushers and their rankings and what they signed for. Bring us the availability and selection of who we could have had. And peppers might get double digit sacks this year, but he couldn't for us in the past few. What does that tell you? So we bring him back and pay him whatever he wants, what changes? History shows he wouldn't be getting 10+ sacks here.

Here is a genuine question... what is Peppers' snap count this year?... Dom used him pretty sparingly assuming he was too old to be an every down player. I'm just wondering if Carolina is playing him more.

 

[Half Empty]

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/teams/teampage-c

312 plays, right around 1/2

 

[Mondio]

Last year for us in regular season it shows he had 584 at 56.75%

He's at 274 and 46.92% so far for Carolina this year, which when looking at per game averages is kind of inline with what we used him earlier last year too.

These were according to pro-football-reference.com. I'm looking on a computer and posting from my phone or I'd have the link

 

[McKnowledge]

Any time we play a team with a veteran QB and decent offensive weapons, we get torched. Though it is time for Dom to go, the main person responsible for this is Ted. We don't have enough of the specific talent required to effectively run a 3-4 zone blitz defense. I want him gone yesterday. This old fart passed up on Watt and gambled on King/Biegel. King was schooled by Antonio Brown and Biegel is a non-factor. Meanwhile Watt was knocking the **** out of Hundley and made multiple plays out in space, along with a guy like Shazier (a speedy ILB) who we should have jumped up to get when he was coming out of Ohio State. Think about this-Carl Lawson has 7 sacks for the Bengals right now. We passed on him for Biegel. Peppers has 8.5 sacks for Carolina. THAT IS WHY WE HAVE NO PASS RUSH. Ted is a ******* who is making ALL THE WRONG DECISIONS ON PERSONNEL!!!

I agree...check my posts prior to the draft, I wanted to get Lawson, and really wanted TT to trade whoever to move up and snatch Nick Barnett, who got picked below his estimated slot. I was watching the combine, and Lawson really impressed me in those drills. Those were NFL coaches (a lot of them effective players in the past) running those drills, and I could tell Lawson impressed them. I actually like Dom Capers, he has success everywhere he has been. He truly is a defensive scientist. I would keep Capers and suggest switching to a 4-3 defense base. Packers have great secondary depth now and a Cover 2 or Cover 3 scheme will definitely work in today's NFC, and the NFL in general. You are right...pass rush is vital. An elite pass rush protects the back end of your defense, allowing them to ball-hawk. Seattle Seahawks are still a serviceable defense because they have pass rushers, the LOB was just gravy, making those teams between 2011-2015, one of the best defenses of all-time. Get some pass rushers and the Packers could emulate that, especially with our secondary. Kevin King was a steal at that slot. He will be at the very least solid. I wanted Watt, but no way were the Packers gonna get him. He was on the board of many teams that needed pass rushing as well. However, TT is horrible at getting his "chefs" (the coaches), the proper ingredients they need to fulfill their vision. TT must go. Get a GM that can adjust to the modern NFL. Go get John Schneider!!!

 

[OldSchool101]

Homework assignment. Bring up a list of 2017 FA edge rushers and their rankings and what they signed for. Bring us the availability and selection of who we could have had. And peppers might get double digit sacks this year, but he couldn't for us in the past few. What does that tell you? So we bring him back and pay him whatever he wants, what changes? History shows he wouldn't be getting 10+ sacks here.

The problem with you argument against bringing back Peppers doesn’t hold. Because we know for fact that he signed a 3.5M dollar contract in NC and that tells me WE didn’t even make an offer. That would only leave the impression that we had an answer for the hole he left. Not to mention that it doesn’t bode well for the fact that we were possibly not utilizing his talent properly or he wouldn’t be doubling his sack count.
The second issue is that we also 100% undeniably knew CM3 was on the decline and is no longer the game changer he used to be. So really we also needed an answer for that and we needed a big answer.
What was that answer? There was none.
We failed not once but twice.
Third. There are other ways to acquire players such as via a trade, the draft etc... it’s called negotiating.
I’ll also take you up on that homework, even though this was just 1 method of acquisition.
I am 100% confident that I can come up with a better plan than 1 Ahmad Brooks to fill both deficiencies while using only 2017 FAgency.
It is no secret that our Defense has held us back for several years now, yet we got jumpy after walking a slew of players (I would’ve too because it looked ugly losing all those veterans) and went out looking for TEs to “one up” Jared Cook (a known quantity who would would also hit the system running day1) In doing so we took our eye off the ball and topped it for a meager 75 yards into the fairway.
We failed what everyone knew should have been our #1 and #2 priority. Pass Rush and Perimter Corner.
It’s no secret that Davin House and Ahmad Brooks were not our answer. That was a desperate attempt to plug a big leak.
I got news. Small leaks sink big ships.

 

[OldSchool101]

Homework assignment. Bring up a list of 2017 FA edge rushers and their rankings and what they signed for. Bring us the availability and selection of who we could have had. And peppers might get double digit sacks this year, but he couldn't for us in the past few. What does that tell you? So we bring him back and pay him whatever he wants, what changes? History shows he wouldn't be getting 10+ sacks here.

I keep Julius Peppers on a one year extension 5M (He average over 9 sacks per year career and 8.3 per year with the Pack) I'm assuming here he may have wanted to go back to finish with Carolina so it gives him that option next year along with a nice 1.5M over what they paid him
I sign Ahmad Brooks to his one year 3.5M
I sign Connor Barwin on a two year 3.5M per year (7M)

I'd have Perry and Peppers OLB with CM3 and Martinez as ILB (Jake Ryan would be a backup ILB) That allows me to rotate in Barwin (who is a extremely reliable LB and rarely gets injured) and Ahmad Brooks to keep them fresh. I also retain the option to shift Clay back outside in the event of injury for a contingency plan (inevitable)

As a backup plan to that, I would've probably grabbed a guy like Eric Walden on a cheap 1-2 year for insurance in case of injury

This would've allowed us to still go S and CB in the draft like we obviously did.

Then in 2018 I'd go OLB early in the draft, possibly trading 2 picks (a 1st rounder and a mid round compensatory pick) to move up in the first or second round if my guy was there.

 

[Packer96]

No in 18 we need to get a right tackle, or a LT and move Bak to right if we get a great LT

 

[OldSchool101]

No in 18 we need to get a right tackle, or a LT and move Bak to right if we get a great LT

While I absolutely agree we need to go after O Line, I think we go after 2 guys mid rounds (3rd through 5th) where we could utilize one of our comp picks to attain one. One thing I’ve learned is sometimes you miss, but with 2 picks 1 normally rises to the occasion. Plus having depth is a nice benefit. The OT position seems to be harder to fill than OG. Sometimes OT can be converted to Guard easier.
We may also be able to add 1 of those through FA without breaking the bank.

 

[Half Empty]

I can't think back far enough to remember why I didn't like Campen as the OL coach, but that ship sailed a long time ago. As long as we've got him, I wouldn't be all the upset about going after improved play from that unit through mid-round draft choices and tier 2 free agents. Depending on who is running the defense next year, they've got to get Watt or Miller type of players who don't need coaching to be awesome.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

No in 18 we need to get a right tackle, or a LT and move Bak to right if we get a great LT

Bakhtiari is one of the best left tackles in the league therefore there's absolutely no reason to even think about moving him to the right side.