Packers vs Browns Game Thread: If its Brown flush it down edition

[gopkrs]

I think he aughta look to his damn coaches

 

[rmontro]

Lafleur had very little good to say about the O-line in general, but he particularly called them out on the blocked kick - he said the whole line got pantsed on that play; that their pad level sucked, and the defenders got underneath them and lifted them.

No! Not the pad level!

 

[Thirteen Below]

I am wondering why Bisaccia hasn't installed 6'-7" FitzPatrick 2yds back from the opposition's long snapper and have him rush, then jump. The ball would need to be at least 11' high to clear his outstretched hands.

Reminiscent of "the Mad Stork", Ted Hendricks. 6'7", 255, and if I am not mistaken still the all-time league leader in blocked kicks - 25, I believe. He probably doesn't have the same vertical leap ability, but at 26 inches, he can still get up there.

 

[Thirteen Below]

No! Not the pad level!

No, no, it's ok... we're gonna get that fixed! Honest!

 

[Heyjoe4]

I think the energy and swarming are indicative of a defense on a mission. They really should be like that on every play. imo

Agreed. I don't know where that energy went against the Browns. The Packers D was still excellent, but the whole team seemed to be suffering from a lack of energy from the kickoff. Very weird and I don't know what caused it.

And yeah, the Cleveland D is outstanding. I really thought the Packers had a better D, but Cleveland takes the edge there. It will be interesting to follow them this season. If they had any kind of offensive power (they don't), they would be a hard team to beat, certainly the Packers proved that to be true.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Another thing that I find awfully concerning....I believe we are on our 3rd ST coordinator under LaFleur now? And for all the positives or improvements it always feels like two steps forward, one step back (at best). 6+ years and 3 coordinators in and it feels like I still cannot be remotely confident in us turning in a complete solid ST performance. I'm not even talking about being a dominant team on ST but just even being consistently average would be great for us...

It seems like no matter what we do, there is always one facet of ST that cannot help but sh*t its pants in crunch time. Like, let's say you broadly split ST into kickoff returns, kickoff coverage, placekicking/FG teams, FG blocking/defense, punt returns, and punt coverage. It feels like in any given game, maybe we will get four of them playing well together. MAYBE five if we are lucky. But one or two are always going to at least do something that makes everyone nervous, if not screw us over outright... And it's not always the same ones causing the problems, but it feels like there always IS one causing problems, lol

Correct Magooch. At a minimum, STs should "do no harm". GB has a field-changing punter, a very accurate kicker, and not much else. And even a good FG kicker is gonna be neutralized against a great STs. as we saw Sunday.

And Bisaccia was sold as the god of STs. Not really seeing that. I'd be fine as long as STs went largely unnoticed in a game. But it's been a loooooong time since GB had a "special" STs unit.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Heh, my girlfriend is always complaining about that. I tell her we're just softening them up. But damn, we know Jacobs is a great running back, we should be giving him something better. Right now he's averaging 60 yards a game and 3.1 yards a carry. Something is wrong here. I guess playing the Lions and Browns is a tough metric though.

Good point - the Lions D is very good, the Cleveland D is arguably the best in the league.

But in the face of an 8-man box and a relentless pass rush, aren't shorter crossing routes open? I know Love was not given much time to pass, but I think MLF should be capable of gaming around that.

 

[Heyjoe4]

By what logic do they not learn from mistakes? Have you already forgotten how bad things looked through October 2023 and how good they were after that? Seems they learned a lot. Frustration is one thing, but let's be objective here.

Disagree. Specifically, Love has thrown a costly INT or pic six deep in Packer territory in each of the last three seasons. I believe they all resulted in losses. Certainly not a lot of "learning from past mistakes" here.

MLF continues to run Jacobs into the heart of 8-man boxes - again and again. That's an in-game example of not learning from mistakes.

They should have learned from these mistakes, and they have not. And as a result, they lose games they probably should win. It's not a huge problem considering the overall talent on the team. It is a little mystifying.

 

[Heyjoe4]

And it was not really on Mason. If you watch the video the protection was horrific.

Yeah I don't put the blame for the blocked kick on Sunday on McManus. It was Morgan who allowed the Cleveland rusher to sidestep, raise a hand, and block the kick. Morgan has to be better.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Especially when the guy who blocked it is the current active NFL leader in block FGs - that was his 6th career block. If there's just one guy out of eleven that you want to be sure you're accounting for, I would think he'd be the guy. Lafleur had very little good to say about the O-line in general, but he particularly called them out on the blocked kick - he said the whole line got pantsed on that play; that their pad level sucked, and the defenders got underneath them and lifted them.

I think it was Morgan, specifically, who lost his match up on that block. That **** can't happen from 43 yards, or anywhere I guess.......

 

[Magooch]

Surprised I've not seen any mention of this.

Browns incorrectly spotted ball on final drive

Anyone have any thoughts there?

 

[Thirteen Below]

Surprised I've not seen any mention of this.

Browns incorrectly spotted ball on final drive

Anyone have any thoughts there?

Thoughts?

No. None at all.

I mean, none that would make it past the profanity filter.

I sure hope Green Bay raises holy hell about the whole referee situation this week.

The D played very well, but yeah the energy and "swarming" were lacking.

Their D was doing all the swarming. They were playing like our defense had played the first 2 games.

MLF continues to run Jacobs into the heart of 8-man boxes - again and again. That's an in-game example of not learning from mistakes.

16 attempts for 30 yards. 1.9 yards per carry.

If they keep throwing that poor guy headfirst into the meatgrinder for no real reason, it's going to be a long season for him. He's not John Riggins.

Or, perhaps not that long. Perhaps prematurely shortened.

 

[GBkrzygrl]

I have no words.

 

[GBkrzygrl]

That's a good way to look at it.

The Packers, as a team, were just not prepared for a defensive/STs fight. It didn't help that Love reverted back to the same mistake he's made the last two years - panicking and throwing costly INTs on the wrong side of the field - when the pressure is high. I can deal with the L, but can't deal with Love's failure to progress past really these bad throws. I thought he'd correct that tendency after it happened once. But it's not going away, and as talented as Love is, it's a concern.

I read somewhere that Love saw the defensive player move and tried to pull the ball back down but was commited.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I read somewhere that Love saw the defensive player move and tried to pull the ball back down but was commited.

Yeah the more I read about that play, the more I think it was a terrible call by MLF - motioning two WRs and a TE all to the left on short routes. Love had very little reaction time. If he did see the defender, it was too late and the very low trajectory probably means he was trying to hold back.

 

[Voyageur]

Yeah the more I read about that play, the more I think it was a terrible call by MLF - motioning two WRs and a TE all to the left on short routes. Love had very little reaction time. If he did see the defender, it was too late and the very low trajectory probably means he was trying to hold back.

I read that too, but I've watched the play several times and I don't know how Love could have not seen him. It's water over the dam. What matters from here on in is if he actually sees where the defenders are on the field in relation to the receiver. And yes, I do agree it was a bad call to start with. But why was Love so determined to throw it into triple coverage? That's what bothers me.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I read that too, but I've watched the play several times and I don't know how Love could have not seen him. It's water over the dam. What matters from here on in is if he actually sees where the defenders are on the field in relation to the receiver. And yes, I do agree it was a bad call to start with. But why was Love so determined to throw it into triple coverage? That's what bothers me.

True. with three Packers receivers all running left, Love would be throwing into a crowd. He could have audible out. But once snapped, he had plenty of time to see that no one is open. He's far from blameless for that pic, and that loss.

 

[Magooch]

This is probably my biggest gripe with Love at the moment. With Rodgers I felt like there often occasions where he was so concerned with his INT% that he would either take a sack or checkdown to a safer play rather than risk the big one....

With Love at times it is the opposite. I guess some would call it hero-ball...it seems like he often feels like he HAS to be the one to make a play. And sometimes that is true. But in a lot of those instances it feels like in the heat of the moment he lets the game-situation/context get away from him. Take a small setback and live to fight another day. There was no NEED to rush a play at the end of 3Q and take a big sack. There was no NEED to try and force a pass to convert that situation when he threw his INT. Cleveland's offense had done nothing all day. For me it doesn't even matter what the coverage situation is there... if you're not 100% sure of that opportunity, take your licks, punt it and trust that your defense can do the same thing it's done all day long.

But, Love giveth and Love taketh away, sometimes...his ability to create something out of nothing can be great at times, but at times it's his propensity to TRY and create something out of nothing that gets us into trouble, too...

 

[Heyjoe4]

This is probably my biggest gripe with Love at the moment. With Rodgers I felt like there often occasions where he was so concerned with his INT% that he would either take a sack or checkdown to a safer play rather than risk the big one....

With Love at times it is the opposite. I guess some would call it hero-ball...it seems like he often feels like he HAS to be the one to make a play. And sometimes that is true. But in a lot of those instances it feels like in the heat of the moment he lets the game-situation/context get away from him. Take a small setback and live to fight another day. There was no NEED to rush a play at the end of 3Q and take a big sack. There was no NEED to try and force a pass to convert that situation when he threw his INT. Cleveland's offense had done nothing all day. For me it doesn't even matter what the coverage situation is there... if you're not 100% sure of that opportunity, take your licks, punt it and trust that your defense can do the same thing it's done all day long.

But, Love giveth and Love taketh away, sometimes...his ability to create something out of nothing can be great at times, but at times it's his propensity to TRY and create something out of nothing that gets us into trouble, too...

Love has done this in each of his first three years as a starter. Some of the pics were returned for 6.

It seems that he gets scared when the choice isn't obvious, or there there is just not a play to be made. He also loses his sense of where the team is in the game, and if a ball has to be thrown, which is only true on 4th down.

 

[Magooch]

Love has done this in each of his first three years as a starter. Some of the pics were returned for 6.

It seems that he gets scared when the choice isn't obvious, or there there is just not a play to be made. He also loses his sense of where the team is in the game, and if a ball has to be thrown, which is only true on 4th down.

Yeah, that's kind of the biggest part I'm getting at - it's like he just has a tendency to lose track of and/or forget the "game-state".

In a vacuum a risky throw that leads to a pick or pick-six early in the game is not "worth" any more or less than one that comes late, but practically speaking I think considering the "game-state" and having more or less time to recover certainly makes one more damaging than the other.

And so it's like...I don't have an issue with a player generally playing with a high-risk, high-reward playstyle. But it has to come with some degree of risk management/mitigation. You just can't afford to maintain that exact same approach/style for the whole 60 minutes. Playing loose and risky is not always a bad thing in and of itself, but you HAVE to take the situation and context into account.

In other words, I'm not bothered by Love making risky throws on the whole. I am very concerned, however, with him making risky throws with what seems like no consideration for the circumstances and state of the game.

 

[Thirteen Below]

True. with three Packers receivers all running left, Love would be throwing into a crowd. He could have audible out. But once snapped, he had plenty of time to see that no one is open. He's far from blameless for that pic, and that loss.

Honestly, it was practically quadruple coverage. There were no fewer than 5 Browns within 5 or 6 yards of the ball; practically half their team. From Love's position behind the line, he was seeing a solid wall of those black and orange jerseys.

And yet, he threw it.

That was an amazingly risky and foolish decision, and it was completely unneccesary. The man sitting on the bench wearing a shirt with the number 19 on it is what is known as a "punter", and he is here for a reason. You're up by 7 with just 3 minutes to go; there is no need to force that pass into triple coverage. Give the ball back at around their own 30, and let your utterly exceptional defense do their part of the job. These are the things that truly elite teams do.

Love has done this in each of his first three years as a starter. Some of the pics were returned for 6.

It seems that he gets scared when the choice isn't obvious, or there there is just not a play to be made. He also loses his sense of where the team is in the game, and if a ball has to be thrown, which is only true on 4th down.

This is looking more and more like what I was afraid of all along. Mind you, I am not at all giving up on him, but I can't help seeing where he is at after all these years since he left college. And I'm more concerned now than I was in January 2024.

Have a look at these excerpts from the scouting reports in his draft year...

—Slow trigger when processing reads and must learn to throw receivers open vs. throwing to the open receiver.

—Gambles throwing into small spaces and trusts his arm too much, which leads to interceptions.

Love is a case study in traits vs. production. He has the traits scouts love (arm strength, mobility, big-play mentality), but he threw 17 interceptions in 2019. No matter which team drafts him, Love is a sit-and-develop type quarterback, not a rookie starter. He must work on cleaning up his decision-making while also growing into a professional quarterback after coming from a conference where his arm strength and athleticism were good enough to win. Love is a major boom-bust prospect who could end up being the best quarterback from the class or a journeyman backup.

Too much staring and telegraphing.

Below-average decision-making against zone looks.

Allowed coverage to swarm due to lack of anticipation.

Sometimes, he can believe too much in his ability to deliver the big play.

He also simply makes questionable reads at various points, including multiple cases of failing to account for underneath zone coverage.

• Has to improve working through his progressions
• Must get more consistent at reading defenses
• Often stares down his primary read
• Needs to learn to move coverage with his eyes
• Could stand to improve decision-making

Sound familiar?

I'm not saying Love sucks or is a bust or anything like that. I want to make clear that absolutely I still believe he can be a Top 5 QB, I really do. And further, I don't just believe it - I think it is probable.

But not as probable as it seemed to me 18 months ago.

I know many other QBs have been where he is and still developed into truly great players, but two things... first, this is his 6th year in the system, being coached at the NFL level by what we believe are exceptional QB-developing coaches. And he is still making the exact same mistakes he was making 8 years ago as a sophomore and junior in college. Maybe not as often, but still showing the same tendencies when the pressure is on.

And 2nd.... if we fans are noticing that, it's a certainty that NFL defensive coordinators are noticing the same thing. They're watching the film, not just from the first couple of seasons with Green Bay, but also his college tape. And from that, they are learning which things he is better at (which are truly impressive), but also the things he still seems to fall back on over and over again at every level. And potentially the traits that are exploitable.

The first year or two, they had no real tape on him. But by this time, they have a lot. The things we ***** about after a bad game, you can bet they see too. And maybe it's just a question of whether he can evolve beyond those thing faster than other teams can scheme for them. Because every bad play he makes in a game is a clue for a DC on how to force him into that same situation, and capitlaize on it.

 

[Voyageur]

Honestly, it was practically quadruple coverage. There were no fewer than 5 Browns within 5 or 6 yards of the ball; practically half their team. From Love's position behind the line, he was seeing a solid wall of those black and orange jerseys.

And yet, he threw it.

That was an amazingly risky and foolish decision, and it was completely unneccesary. The man sitting on the bench wearing a shirt with the number 19 on it is what is known as a "punter", and he is here for a reason. You're up by 7 with just 3 minutes to go; there is no need to force that pass into triple coverage. Give the ball back at around their own 30, and let your utterly exceptional defense do their part of the job. These are the things that truly elite teams do.



This is looking more and more like what I was afraid of all along. Mind you, I am not at all giving up on him, but I can't help seeing where he is at after all these years since he left college. And I'm more concerned now than I was in January 2024.

Have a look at these excerpts from the scouting reports in his draft year...


Sound familiar?

I'm not saying Love sucks or is a bust or anything like that. I want to make clear that absolutely I still believe he can be a Top 5 QB, I really do. And further, I don't just believe it - I think it is probable.

But not as probable as it seemed to me 18 months ago.

I know many other QBs have been where he is and still developed into truly great players, but two things... first, this is his 6th year in the system, being coached at the NFL level by what we believe are exceptional QB-developing coaches. And he is still making the exact same mistakes he was making 8 years ago as a sophomore and junior in college. Maybe not as often, but still showing the same tendencies when the pressure is on.

And 2nd.... if we fans are noticing that, it's a certainty that NFL defensive coordinators are noticing the same thing. They're watching the film, not just from the first couple of seasons with Green Bay, but also his college tape. And from that, they are learning which things he is better at (which are truly impressive), but also the things he still seems to fall back on over and over again at every level. And potentially the traits that are exploitable.

The first year or two, they had no real tape on him. But by this time, they have a lot. The things we ***** about after a bad game, you can bet they see too. And maybe it's just a question of whether he can evolve beyond those thing faster than other teams can scheme for them. Because every bad play he makes in a game is a clue for a DC on how to force him into that same situation, and capitlaize on it.

Couldn't agree more. Everything you said is exactly what I've been seeing. I know it isn't popular for us to think that Love can't walk on water in July, but being a realist is what's necessary to understand the real machinations of a football team. You cannot look at your players as being on their way to Canton just because they put on the green & gold. You need to constantly work on challenging them and helping them find the inner strength to improve their game.

LeFleur needs to let Love face the consequences of his mistakes, not try to deflect his decisions onto himself. If Love's ego is so easily bruised or destroyed because of criticism he will never be the kind of leader that can be counted on consistently.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Yeah, that's kind of the biggest part I'm getting at - it's like he just has a tendency to lose track of and/or forget the "game-state".

In a vacuum a risky throw that leads to a pick or pick-six early in the game is not "worth" any more or less than one that comes late, but practically speaking I think considering the "game-state" and having more or less time to recover certainly makes one more damaging than the other.

And so it's like...I don't have an issue with a player generally playing with a high-risk, high-reward playstyle. But it has to come with some degree of risk management/mitigation. You just can't afford to maintain that exact same approach/style for the whole 60 minutes. Playing loose and risky is not always a bad thing in and of itself, but you HAVE to take the situation and context into account.

In other words, I'm not bothered by Love making risky throws on the whole. I am very concerned, however, with him making risky throws with what seems like no consideration for the circumstances and state of the game.

Exactly. And the QB, along with all players, need to be aware of at least the down and distance. Love loses sight of this at times under pressure. It's a troubling trend, but losing a game can be a wake up call to improve. I'm not concerned with Love's play at all this season, quite the contrary. This was a costly mistake, and a chance for him to learn.

McKinney did this against the Commanders. On 4th down, Daniels fired a long, inaccurate pass that McKinney intercepted. Had he just let the ball fall, the Packers would have had better field position. At that point, the game was won.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Couldn't agree more. Everything you said is exactly what I've been seeing. I know it isn't popular for us to think that Love can't walk on water in July, but being a realist is what's necessary to understand the real machinations of a football team. You cannot look at your players as being on their way to Canton just because they put on the green & gold. You need to constantly work on challenging them and helping them find the inner strength to improve their game.

LeFleur needs to let Love face the consequences of his mistakes, not try to deflect his decisions onto himself. If Love's ego is so easily bruised or destroyed because of criticism he will never be the kind of leader that can be counted on consistently.

MLF took the blame to maybe take some heat off Love. And it was a lousy play he called. I'm sure in the locker room, MLF had a different message.

 

[Voyageur]

MLF took the blame to maybe take some heat off Love. And it was a lousy play he called. I'm sure in the locker room, MLF had a different message.

The worst part of it could be that the players believe LeFleur is mollycoddling Love, so he doesn't appear to be responsible for his own actions. That could be the worst thing LeFleur could do for Love and the entire team.