Our WR Corps in 2019

[PackerDNA]

The great unknown is how will the younger guys do in real games against top competition?

 

[gbgary]

EQ at the very least has a bad high ankle sprain. he'll be out for several weeks. rodgers is going to have to get past his "trust" issues he has with everyone, other than adams and perhaps allison, for this O to work...and it can. moore is probably out. kumerow, shephard, davis, and to some extend lazard, have shown they can get open and make the catches.

 

[mradtke66]

So while we appear to potentially have a talented group of WR's, most of them are going to have to show they can play on Sundays.

Thankfully, we have a lot of Thursday night games this year, rendering your concern moot.

Gute playing some 3-D chess over here...

 

[HardRightEdge]

Jarrett Boykin had himself a room to compete with though. ESB, not so much.

Unfortunately I couldnt watch the game tonight, however Davis seems to have been balling out. Did he stand in for Adams? Seems to me he is in right now

In 2013, Boykin was the #4, elevated to to #3 with Cobb missing 10 games and Jones 2 games. The #5 WR on that team was Myles White with 12 targets, a guy with speed who did not look good in preseason, a raw prospect who did not pan out. Finley missed 10 games leaving Quarless as the starter. Lacy was the top receiviing RB with 44 targets. Boykin was the beneficiary of circumstances. In 2014, with Nelson, Cobb and the rookie Adams all playing 16 games, a rare circumstance, Boykin hardly saw the field. He was the #4 with 12 targets, 3 catches, 23 yards. The only other WRs getting a target that season were Janis with 2 and Kevin Dorsey with 1.

Boykins was tall, could run a route, and had good hands, but neither quick nor fast can be found in his resume. The league catches up to that kind of player regardless of other football skills.

While this team does not have the proven Nelson-Jones-Cobb trio, we have not seen seen this level of competition for bench positions in my recollection. While it is preseason, there are things to look at: quickness at the top of the route, speed, hands, catch radius, adjustment to the ball, competitiveness at the ball. While separation may be an easier get in preseason against second and third tier players, they are also playing with up-and-down inconsistent quarterbacking. 7 holding calls in this Raiders game? At least one of them wiped out a terrific Sheppard catch.

We're seeing a lot of football skills from the guys in this competition, more raw material than I can recall going this deep into the bench.

In those past years with guys like White and Janis you had athletes in search of football skills, not much in the way of competition. If the preseason 2013 Boykin were in this competition I don't know if could even make the roster.

The point being, St. Brown getting regular season action last season in an injured and inexperienced receiving group doesn't count for a lot. Injured or not, I had him pretty far out on the bubble. What do I not like about St. Brown? While he's big, has decent hands, and some speed, I don't see the critical mass of skills needed. He lacks suddenness; he's a glider. He's not a guy to snap off a short in route. Despite the 40 time, he doesn't separate on go routes or double moves. His speed looks to be in the middle of the acceleration curve when he gets into the glide. He doesn't seem to track and adjust to deep balls very well. Sure, in the right spot with the right throw he makes the back shoulder, but he often looks uncompetitive and a little clumsy when adjusting to a less than perfect ball. If you want a guy to run a skinny post or flag in a combo route against a zone defense outside the red zone gliding into space, he's your guy.

Nobody's perfect. Nobody brings every top drawer athletic ability and football skill. I just don't see enough where you'd want him to plug him in as an every down player for a few games as an injury replacement. If you can't see that, its best to look elsewhere.

 

[Mondio]

This season there is definite competition and people seem to be stepping up and fighting for spots at the WR position. I agree, we haven't seen this for a while.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm cautiously optimistic about our WR depth. Too much excitement in past years over guys who did very little after they made the roster or were cut and tried to catch on with other teams. Like I said in an earlier post, past Adams, this unit lacks quality experience.

All that said, I think we have a nice blend of speed, size, smarts and guys that appear to be well connected to QB #12. So that is what has me optimistic, not a bunch of catches in preseason games against DB's who won't be playing on Sundays (Thursdays, Mondays).

 

[gbgary]

so it looks like adams, allison, mvs, kumerow, shephard, davis, and if they go 7, lazard. who get's the ax when st brown's ready to come back? guessing lazard?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

so it looks like adams, allison, mvs, kumerow, shephard, davis, and if they go 7, lazard. who get's the ax when st brown's ready to come back? guessing lazard?

Well the problem is......EQ has to be carried on the 53 or at least placed on the 53 and then IR'd so that he can be one of 2 players brought back after 6 weeks. They don't get a free pass on him until such time that he is healthy to play. If they IR him now, he is done for the year and if he becomes healthy, I believe he fights the IR tag and is a free agent. That part I am not sure about.

I'm not convinced that Shepherd has beaten out Lazard either.

 

[gbgary]

Well the problem is......EQ has to be carried on the 53 or at least placed on the 53 and then IR'd so that he can be one of 2 players brought back after 6 weeks. They don't get a free pass on him until such time that he is healthy to play. If they IR him now, he is done for the year and if he becomes healthy, I believe he fights the IR tag and is a free agent. That part I am not sure about.

I'm not convinced that Shepherd has beaten out Lazard either.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2018/8/...ry-nfl-roster-designations-cuts-53-man-roster

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2018/8/...ry-nfl-roster-designations-cuts-53-man-roster

I think this is how I explained it?

EQB is basically done as a Packer, unless they keep him on the 53 at cut downs and then IR him or if they cut him and nobody signs him.

But if they IR him now, he would have to be released when healthy again.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

This Seinfeld clip reminds me of J'Mon Moore.

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[mradtke66]

I think this is how I explained it?

EQB is basically done as a Packer, unless they keep him on the 53 at cut downs and then IR him or if they cut him and nobody signs him.

But if they IR him now, he would have to be released when healthy again.

I don't think that's quite right....

If they keep him on the 90 man roster and the IR him at final cut downs, we'll retain his rights for the next two years (balance of his contract). The whole "IR a player and then subject him to waives," is, afaik, something that happens if you IR players before then.

Of course, his season is completely over if he doesn't make it to the final 53.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don't think that's quite right....

If they keep him on the 90 man roster and the IR him at final cut downs, we'll retain his rights for the next two years (balance of his contract). The whole "IR a player and then subject him to waives," is, afaik, something that happens if you IR players before then.

Of course, his season is completely over if he doesn't make it to the final 53.

Your statement is kind of confusing and parts of it are exactly what I am saying. If they IR him BEFORE he is on the 53, he is probably lost. Unless, he isn't healthy until after the season is over. If he is eligible (gets healthy) to come off the IR during the season, he can demand his release (Packers can't sign him) and they have to cut him so that he can sign with any other team.

The Packers have to keep him on the 53 and then they cut put him on IR, which allows them to keep his rights and bring him back when healthy.

This prevents teams from stock piling guys on IR before the 53 and allows the player the right to play when he actually is healthy.

 

[mradtke66]

Your statement is kind of confusing and parts of it are exactly what I am saying. If they IR him BEFORE he is on the 53, he is probably lost. Unless, isn't healthy until the season is over. If he is eligible to come off the IR during the season, he has to be cut and can sign with any team.

The Packers have to keep him on the 53 and then they cut put him on IR, which allows them to keep his rights and bring him back when healthy.

This prevents teams from stock piling guys on IR before the 53 and allows the player the right to play when he actually is healthy.

I actually think we're both wrong...

If he goes on IR, he's not "basically done as a Packer," as you stated.

He also can't just go to IR at final cutdown, as I stated.

He'd be waived injured--so yes, another team could claim him, but I don't think he's that good that another team would be willing to put him on their 53. Unless they're so hard up for a WR, they'd be willing to designate to return a 2nd year player.

Assuming no one claims him, he just reverts back to us on IR.

Now, if we IR him with the minor-injury designation, yes, we'd have to release him once he's healthy.

We don't have to do that, we could just put him on regular IR.

What HE could do in response is file a grievance and force the Packers to either release him or change the designation to short-term IR.

I don't believe any other party can force the Packers to change the specific IR designation.

So, if the Packers like him and want to keep him around AND can convince him to go to IR quietly, don't be surprised if "the ankle just isn't responding to treatment" is announced, he goes to IR, and returns next spring for minicamps.

 

[gbgary]

they could put him on ir-return but why waste one of those on a backup. they'd have to cut/stash a guy and bring him back week two also.

 

[mradtke66]

they could put him on ir-return but why waste one of those on a backup. they'd have to cut/stash a guy and bring him back week two also.

Doesn't work that way anymore.

Any player sent to IR could be designated-to-return. However, to be able to return, you have to make the 53, and then be IR-ed.

We did this with Kumarow last year. Keep what, 8 WRs at cutdown? And then Davis and Kumarow went to IR. Then we ended up bringing both back.

The risk there is you could potentially lose the 53rd, 52nd, etc player you actually want to keep to keep those guys available to return. And in that time, maybe they get resigned elsewhere.

That said, if they're not worried about those 50-nth players, go ahead and do it. Make the 53, IR them, and re-sign you last 2-3 guys. If, after week 10, you don't have anyone else you could bring back, maybe bring him back.

 

[Dantés]

I'm guessing that they will keep EQ through cuts and then IR him afterwards.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I actually think we're both wrong...

If he goes on IR, he's not "basically done as a Packer," as you stated.

He also can't just go to IR at final cutdown, as I stated.

He'd be waived injured--so yes, another team could claim him, but I don't think he's that good that another team would be willing to put him on their 53. Unless they're so hard up for a WR, they'd be willing to designate to return a 2nd year player.

Assuming no one claims him, he just reverts back to us on IR.

Now, if we IR him with the minor-injury designation, yes, we'd have to release him once he's healthy.

We don't have to do that, we could just put him on regular IR.

What HE could do in response is file a grievance and force the Packers to either release him or change the designation to short-term IR.

I don't believe any other party can force the Packers to change the specific IR designation.

So, if the Packers like him and want to keep him around AND can convince him to go to IR quietly, don't be surprised if "the ankle just isn't responding to treatment" is announced, he goes to IR, and returns next spring for minicamps.

This is the way I understood it. My saying "he is basically done as a Packer if he is IR'd before the final 53", was referring to the fact that unless he stays injured through the whole season, he is fair game for anyone to sign once healthy (4-6 weeks). Once that ankle heals and he can play, I can almost guarantee you that there are going to be teams with injuries that will have the chance to and will sign him before the Packers can. Packers only get a crack at him mid season if he comes off IR and clears waivers without being grabbed.

Again, this prevents teams from stockpiling players with minor injuries.

Also, not every player can return from IR. Only a total of 2 players can return and those players had to be placed on the IR after the 53. No designations are required anymore.

 

[Mondio]

i'm really going to have to look at FB and TE to see what they'll do with WR. I still think EQ is an intriguing prospect that if can come back this year, they'd like to see more of. I believe he has a high ceiling, but potential only gets you so far. For most of this preseason I was thinking Davis or Shepherd, but i'm convinced it's both now. Shepherd has been consistent in game situations and making tough catches. If he does it again in the final game, he's a lock imo. And he'd provide return man depth and a change up in the offense. He's got some quicks out on that field and can hop to snatch a pass out of the sky. Davis has done it in the return and coverage game and he just showed everyone he has more we haven't seen. What a difference from "losing it in the lights" a year or 2 ago.

 

[Dantés]

That would be my preferred move. Obviously that will depend on the "bubble players" and how bad they want to keep those guys VS how much they think other teams might want those guys.

For instance. If Shepherd or Lazard had to be cut to save EQB a roster spot, the Packers could lose one of them before putting EQB on IR and grabbing then trying to grab the cut player.

If Bolton ends up going on IR, I think they should just go with 3 LB and 7 WR initially. Then they can out EQ on IR and pick up a roster cut at LB without the threat of losing Shepherd.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

If Bolton ends up going on IR, I think they should just go with 3 LB and 7 WR initially. Then they can out EQ on IR and pick up a roster cut at LB without the threat of losing Shepherd.

I think the featured battle this next Thursday is going to be Shepherd VS Lazard. I really like them both and would love to see both of them stick with the Packers. But carrying 7 on the 53 is a luxury that I don't think the Packers can afford and not they would seem like #6 and #7. I still think out of the 2, Shepherd due to his size, might make it to the PS easier than Lazard. I also think the coaches and #12 probably already have who they want in their heads and that might not be just due to the catches they both have made in preseason games, since both have looked equally good.

All this changes when we hear that Gute has traded G-Mo for an ILB LOL

As far as Bolton goes, I think they sign/trade for an ILB before the last preseason game. That position is just WAY too thin in talent and there are a couple of decent options still out there (Bynes, Foster and Te'o). Now maybe all 3 of those guys are still available after cut downs and the Packers will wait and see who else is freed up, but there is something to be said about getting a player in 13 days before your next game VS 4 days.

 

[gbgary]

Doesn't work that way anymore.

but it does in essence. they don't have to designate them any longer but they still can only bring back 2 from ir and they have to be on the 53 day 1. so, i think they'll ir him immediately after making the 53 and bring on another fringe player...lazard, or an ilb from another team or who knows.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

Dear friends,

I couldnt find any related thread on this subject. If there is, admins, please feel free to merge them.

How many WR's do you guys think the Packers keep on the roster? And who are they? My guess would be

Adams - MVS - Allison - Kumerow - ESB - Shepherd - Lazard

I think if Shepherd is going to continue showing his he can return the ball, Davis is out.

Post Winnipeg:

Adams, Allison, MVS, Kumerow, Davis, Shephard.

Lazard - Practice Squad

ESB - Injured Reserve.


Just my 2 cents.

 

[Dantés]

I think the featured battle this next Thursday is going to be Shepherd VS Lazard. I really like them both and would love to see both of them stick with the Packers. But carrying 7 on the 53 is a luxury that I don't think the Packers can afford and not they would seem like #6 and #7. I still think out of the 2, Shepherd due to his size, might make it to the PS easier than Lazard. I also think the coaches and #12 probably already have who they want in their heads and that might not be just due to the catches they both have made in preseason games, since both have looked equally good.

All this changes when we hear that Gute has traded G-Mo for an ILB LOL

As far as Bolton goes, I think they sign/trade for an ILB before the last preseason game. That position is just WAY too thin in talent and there are a couple of decent options still out there (Bynes, Foster and Te'o). Now maybe all 3 of those guys are still available after cut downs and the Packers will wait and see who else is freed up, but there is something to be said about getting a player in 13 days before your next game VS 4 days.

Shepherd's skill set as a traditional slot is kind of unique among the receiving corps, and he offers ST value that Lazard does not. I've also seen suggestion that backup corners have played Lazard with outside leverage, allowing him to get inside and seal them off with his size. The theory is that legit NFL corners won't respect his speed to the outside, will therefore play him with inside leverage, and thus will render him a lot less effective.

That's one theory. I'm not claiming it's definitely correct, but it's interesting.

As for replacing Bolton, I don't personally get how those FA options would fit. Martinez, Crawford, and Summers are all naturally better fits as the MIKE in this defense. They need a WILL. The FA options out there seem like more of what the Packers already have.

 

[mradtke66]

This is the way I understood it. My saying "he is basically done as a Packer if he is IR'd before the final 53", was referring to the fact that unless he stays injured through the whole season, he is fair game for anyone to sign once healthy (4-6 weeks). Once that ankle heals and he can play, I can almost guarantee you that there are going to be teams with injuries that will have the chance to and will sign him before the Packers can.

Again though, that's not how IR works.

We waive him injured. He is subjected to waivers. If he clears waivers, he reverts to the Packers IR.

At this point, no one else can sign him. The Packers own his rights, full stop.

The only question from here is does he qualify for short-term IR or not.

If he does and the Packers use that designation, then yes, he will have to be released.

If the Packers do not use the short-term designation, then they do not have to release him. Thus they retain his rights, he is never cut, he is never waived.

The rub is short-term vs not.

I do not believe the Packers have to use the short-term designation. If they like St. Brown and want to keep him, they can put him on regular IR. My understand the only advantage for the Packers using this designation is for players who were going to get cut, but got hurt first (I could be mistaken.)

The check and balance against teams abusing this approach is the players themselves. If they don't want to sit on IR for the whole year, they can file a grievance with the NFL via the NFLPA. If they win their filing, they gain their release.

But it comes down to the player filing to get free.

Why would they do that? If they legit only have a sore ankle that will keep them out a week and they don't want to waste their season, they they should file. Probably.

Which is why the Packers need to shoot straight with St. Brown. If it really is only a 4-6 week injury, he could like file for redesignation and win. If, however, the Packers do him a solid, take care of him, and convince him he's in their future plans, it might be in his best interests to just take going to IR and move on. But that's largely/entirely up to him.

Also, not every player can return from IR. Only a total of 2 players can return and those players had to be placed on the IR after the 53. No designations are required anymore.

I said "Any", not "Every."