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Non-Criminal CB options

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by FrankRizzo, May 6, 2010.

  1. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    Reading the ESPN story on PacThug going to the Bungals, they wrote this:

    Yes, Cincinnati could use another corner behind starters Johnathan Joseph and Leon Hall. More reasonable options such as Dre' Bly and Ken Lucas....

    Are you guys comfortable with the same CB's that we had last year, banking on Pat Lee actually being good (he's never shown he is, he's essentially a rookie coming off injury)?
    Al Harris will not be ready week one and when he is, sadly, he'll never be the same Harris as we saw prior to Plaxico schooling him.

    Will Underwood emerge?
    I was the captain of the Will the Thrill fan club, but coming off his ACL shred, he won't even be as good as he used to be as a CB, which was nothing better than a dime.

    Would the team be better adding a vet like a Ken Lucas or even Dre' Bly? I have heard that Carlos Rogers could be had as well, for a day 3 pick probably, from Washington. It's funny he and Pacman were both top 12 picks in 2005.

    Would that guarantee no more Jarrett Bush?
     
  2. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    (First off, I think you meant Will Blackmon)
    I'm confortable with our secondary.

    Here's what it'll be:

    Base: Woodson, Williams, Collins, Bigby

    Nickel: Woodson, Williams, Burnett, Collins, Bigby

    Dime: Woodson, Williams, Burnett, Lee/Underwood/Blackmon, Collins, Bigby.

    (Capers, in his previous jobs, used a versatile S in the nickel role. Burnett fits that bill. Though I can see him using him exclusively on dime packages because he's a rookie)

    This disconsidering Harris, though I think he'll be back.

    I'm really comfortable counting with the young corners we have improving (Lee, Blackmon, Underwood), with Harris return and with Burnett...

    We got 5 options in there (6 if you count Josh Bell. I don't). We need production from only 2...

    As far as Bush, with Burnett, he won't see the field anymore... Only if it goes on like last season, where we had 4 secondary players hurt (3 corners and a safety).
     
  3. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    Good stuff there, but you have to expect and be prepared for injuries like that back there.

    You guys might remember the Giants when they beat us, had tons of DB injuries and still found a way to win at Dallas, at the Packers and then against the great Patriots.

    The Saints DB's last year had tons of injuries as well, but they brought in veterans when needed like Chris McCallister and Mike McKenzie. They won some games because those guys did well enough.

    I don't like turning to raw guys like Bell and Underwood, even Pat Lee is still totally unproven, hasn't shown that he knows how to cover in the NFL and he only did it well one year at Auburn.

    Brandon Underwood is not some blue-chip draft pick either. He didn't make it at Ohio State and had to transfer to Cinci.

    I want us to win the Super Bowl, but we didn't upgrade the CB's or the OLB's and that concerns me considering what Farve and Warner and Rapelisberger did to us last year, and that was with Woodson and Clay Matthews healthy. What happens if one of them go down, and Collins?

    Underwood and Lee BETTER pan out as good picks, but to date, TT has never drafted us a CB who has panned out as a CB. That has to change now for us to go forward. Has to.
     
  4. profile_removed

    profile_removed Cheesehead

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    Rather have Carlos than Pacman
     
  5. NYPacker

    NYPacker Cheesehead

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    Idk about Carlos Rogers. I heard that he wants to get paid a lot. Dre Bly would've been a good option however he's old and had trouble adjusting to the 49ers new 3-4 scheme. Ken Lucas sucks. He had a horrid season last year starting for the Hawks. He is only a tiny bit above Bush's caliber but not by much. Without Marcus Trufant to bail jim out on the other side, Lucas looked helpless. Speaking of Trufant he's coming off of injury and there may be some trade value there. He's a solid cover guy who cam play the No. 1 or No. 2 spot effectively.
     
  6. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    There are no perfect options available. Let's be real.

    Charles Woodson the free agent was far from perfect. That's why 30 teams didn't want him.
    Randy Moss wasn't close to perfect.
    Al Harris was far from perfect.
    Jared Allen was far from perfect, etc...
    Chillar, Frank Walker....

    The point is, is our current stable of CB's good enough to stop the Drew Brees, Brett Favre, Peyton Manning offenses? They weren't even close to being good enough last year of course. And we didn't even face Brees and the high-flying Saints. Sure I'd like to think year #2 in Capers system would be better just from experience. I think it will, but not enough. The talent has to be better.

    Lito Shepperd to the Vikings. He's old, like Woodson, and he's not as good as he used to be. But he's clearly an upgrade for them at the #3 or #4 CB spot.

    Depth is very important because injuries are the norm in this game, not the exception.
    I like getting Burnett. But to me, Patrick Lee and Brandon Underwood are as questionable as Jarrett Bush is. And while I love Will the Thrill, he's coming off an ACL and nobody is the same the first year after that. Plus Will was never a real good CB.

    So I'm still very very realistic about this position and am very concerned that the horrors we saw last year will repeat. Plus that was with Woodson and Collins back there. Imagine one of them being out.

    I know the regime, the TT Spinmaster would like us to think they got it all figured out, but that was their spin last year at OT leading into the season. I trust my eyes more than what the GM or president say a lot of times.
     
  7. PackerSlacker

    PackerSlacker Cheesehead

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    I'm cautiously optimistic about the position as a whole. As much as it isnt a given that someone like Favre would have a repeat performance of last year we can say the same about Woodson. Both of them had career years at an age you wouldnt think they would. Woodson is quite a bit younger so the possibilities of him backing up last year with another great year are a little bit better.

    As far as the rest of the Db's go, I love Harris but he has been tailing off a bit in the past couple years. He seems to get exploited a lot by bigger receivers and seems to be giving up more than his share of TD's than in the past. But who knows how much has been his fault or just the safety out of position or a combination of both. Either way, combined with coming off ACL surgery he is questionable this year at best. Although he is a freak body-wise. He could pull a Reggie White miraculous recovery.

    Traman Williams has shown flashes of brilliance IMO but still has those games where he seems lost. Stiill not bad for an undrafted free agent. He has a lot of upside.

    I think everyone is hoping the three heading monster of Lee, Blackmon and Underwood will come through this year where we wont have to worry so much about it. Shields is a wild card but maybe this year only a special teams contributor.

    Not sure if we need anyone additional yet since we would have to make a decision on who to cut. Bush obviously can go anytime now. But its good to keep the feelers out as camp comes together. Maybe there will be some more decent options available after the June cuts....
     
  8. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    I agree, and last year was clamoring for veteran CB when our 3 guys went down.

    I don't want a veteran FA while we have people. But if someone goes down, I wouldn't like for Bush to take the field, no...
     
  9. TheGiftedApe

    TheGiftedApe TheGiftedApe

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    Well my 2 cent's is that Blackmon, Bush, T.Ford, J.Bell, All these guys gotta go, so they can make some room for new Depth at CB pos so we can have some GOOD guys get in there and work their way up to the top. While blackmon can stick around and return punts, he is no DB. Underwood/Lee theres still some hope for them to emerge, especially underwood imo. But they are on a short leash in my book. TT has to start cutting some of these jokers we have so atleast there will be young guys in there learning, and gaining experience, not just Jarret bush collecting checks and giving up touchdowns in practice all day. What kind of message are you sending your team when you keep guys like jarret bush?
     
  10. olwig420

    olwig420 Cheesehead

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    If we would have drafted CB's and LB instead of OL and DL then you would be complaining that our OL has no depth and how stupid could TT have been not to get players to replace Clifton and Tauscher. One or two key injuries on the OL and we would not have been a contender even with the best secondary in the NFL. Then this season when our DL is not doing well because they don't have enough depth to keep players fresh, you will complain about that too.

    The reality of it is we had too many positions that could use upgrades and we couldn't fix them all. You point out exactly why we drafted the way we did, because we have young guys in the DB that are unproven and still developing. We may not have a great secondary but obviously TT decided to give the young guys a chance and upgrade in other areas of need.

    James Jones could turn out to be great, Lee could turn out to be great too. No one knows, but they will get their chance and we will find out.

    For now we don't have to worry about our OL for the first time in a long time and with the needed upgrades addressed on the DL should help to take some pressure off the secondary.
     
  11. Mack_20

    Mack_20 Cheesehead

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    I think having a veteran CB could have stopped Warner from raping us in the playoffs... those young guys arent coming along very well, Bush is garbage, Lee is always hurt, Underwood could but I just don't see it... only thing is, theres nothin out there really.. Wouldnt mind seeing Rogers... but he'll want a lot of money..
     
  12. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    That is not true, and either you know it but are in denial, or you really have been a victim of the TT Spin machine.

    You see, here's a little secret. Teams like the Vikings and Jets conducted a draft just like we did 2 weeks ago. But get this: they had other positions they wanted to upgrade and they utilized a little secret called "free agency' to fill some of them.

    Even older, 1-year CB stopgaps, would be very doable this year, with no salary cap.
     
  13. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Aaron Nagler over at CheeseheadTV made a very good point, about the kids not being ready for Capers' D.

    With that logic, any veteran CB wouldn't have made that much difference. (Though we didn't need that much dfference, we just needed one or two stops more, a FG instead of a TD to win that game...)
     
  14. olwig420

    olwig420 Cheesehead

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    Most of the moves by other teams were at the cost of draft picks so if we had to give up picks then No we would not have been able to address all of the upgrades that we could use.
     
  15. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    Is the problem the CB coaching perhaps?
    Here's how I see it:

    We have 3 good DB's: Woodson, Harris, and Collins. Woodson was all-world and we stole him via that funny little thing called free agency.
    Harris was a nice acquisition via that thing called the trade wire, and he pretty much worked his way into being a solid pro.

    Collins has been very good no question at the safety position.

    But none, no, zero CB's that Teddy has ever drafted us in now 6 years of drafting has amounted to anything better than average or less than average. Do the math.

    Is Teddy and his requirement of being 5'11+" part of the problem? Is he just not that good evaluating that position?
    Or is it coaching of his picks that is the problem?

    Cornerbacks shouldn't need 4 years to develop. Some are ready right out of college.
     
  16. claybillings

    claybillings Cheesehead

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    I think you make a great point here. TT's stubborness about drafting tall corners really doesn't make sense to me. You are overlooking tons of high-caliber because of a measly 2-3 inches. There are corners in this league that can PLAY and are shorter than 6 foot, period.

    I wonder how tall Nnamdi Asomugha (most likely a spelling error) and Darrelle Revis are?

    Anyways, I just feel that it is a naive way to look at a position. So TT would draft a guy with less talent but is 6 foot 3, instead of a fantastic player who is 5'11?
     
  17. NYPacker

    NYPacker Cheesehead

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    You bring up a very good point about the coaching staff of the DB's. I think it was last season that the media asked Collins about how he was able to burst out with 7 INTs in 2008. He replied by saying that "Charles Woodson taught me how to study film." If Woodson was the one who taught him how to do that, then what has the DB's coaching staff been doing the whole time?

    You're absolutely right in that TT hasn't been successful at all in drafting good CBs even in Seattle. The only notable DB's he's ever taken were Ken Lucas, Marcus Trufant and Ken Hamlin. Ironically he drafted really good O-lineman back then.
     
  18. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Just for the record, Ron wolf had the same stubborness in drafting only tall corners.

    I think it's a dumb thing, I don't see how being tall will help a CB, only on jump balls, and those happen, what, 2, 3 times a game? But oh well...
     
  19. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Revis is only 5'11 and seems to do fine, but I can understand TT being nervous about a shorter corner going up against megatron.
     
  20. OldSchoolFan

    OldSchoolFan Cheesehead

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    Why has no one admitted that we have a criminal playing DB for us right now?

    Jarrett Bush has been stealing money from the Packers for the past two years!....pretending to play football...yea, sure....
     
  21. NYPacker

    NYPacker Cheesehead

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    I was a big skeptic of short corners before but now I have to agree with this. If a guy can play football the you let him play, despite his height. However during Wolf's era the recievers were much taller as were the RB's. Nowadays WRs are getting shorter as well as their RB counterparts so height shouldn't be looked at so much.

    LOL I couldn't have said it better myself!
     
  22. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    And what else is funny is that Lucas and Hamlin are both on the steet basically right now. I don't know what Trufant's status is though.

    That's why, as with Al Harris (trade) and Charles Woodson (FA), I wish Ted would just utilize those 2 tools more and forget about using the draft to address the CB position.
    Antoine Winfield was also a FA for the Vikings. You know more what you're getting than the draft.
     

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