McCarthy's peculiar game plans

[Sunshinepacker]

up till the last few weeks, i have been pretty happy with what i see in the future at WR. they are going to be pretty good going forward. I think i change a little bit more on needing a faster dynamic type, like a young cobb. after watching more of rams, chiefs, bears, saints...im now for an early pick like Marquise Brown i think from Oklahoma... he reminds me of T. Hill from the chiefs. My gut says go edge OL safety, but i think Rodgers is lacking a top tier early pick WR. ugh.

Adams is most certainly a top tier WR. MVS looks like he'll be pretty good and who knows about the others. Receivers generally take a while to put it together so I don't think there's any need to worry about the young receivers on this team. Tight end is a wasteland though.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

QBs aren't generally trying to grab guys to block them or run a route and catch a pass that might be thrown pretty hard while being tackled by a guy who is trying to strip the ball, which would be much easier if a person's fingers weren't working.

It's being reported that Graham may try to play on Sunday night, so I guess we might possibly get to see how a TE is able to play with a broken thumb

 

[swhitset]

It's being reported that Graham may try to play on Sunday night, so I guess we might possibly get to see how a TE is able to play with a broken thumb

Doesn’t sound like a team or player that has given up to me.

 

[shockerx]

Adams is most certainly a top tier WR. MVS looks like he'll be pretty good and who knows about the others. Receivers generally take a while to put it together so I don't think there's any need to worry about the young receivers on this team. Tight end is a wasteland though.

yes, im just thinking of the game breaker type..that can take a reverse around the end, make a quick juke and catch that 3rd down pass for 3 yards, just another weapon. i would like to wait till like 4th round...but i just dont see top talent lasting that long. im jealous of chiefs saints and all that speed.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

yes, im just thinking of the game breaker type..that can take a reverse around the end, make a quick juke and catch that 3rd down pass for 3 yards, just another weapon. i would like to wait till like 4th round...but i just dont see top talent lasting that long. im jealous of chiefs saints and all that speed.

I was thinking about the same thing when I watched the Badgers play Purdue this weekend. Purdue has a 5'9" freshman "WR" Rondale Moore. He almost single handedly beat the Badgers with everything he did on the field. Now maybe the Packers just haven't been lucky enough to find one of those guys or looking for one in the draft or maybe MM and whoever is helping draw up the offense isn't thinking outside the box to take advantage of a guy like that. Just look what Taysom Hill is doing for the Saints and he was cut by the Packers.

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[Sunshinepacker]

It's being reported that Graham may try to play on Sunday night, so I guess we might possibly get to see how a TE is able to play with a broken thumb

I didn't mean to imply that a TE COULDN'T play with a broken finger. Just that comparing a TE to a QB seemed to be a bit of a stretch. E.g., defensive players can play with broken hands (see Nick Perry) but that might be tight for a QB or TE.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

yes, im just thinking of the game breaker type..that can take a reverse around the end, make a quick juke and catch that 3rd down pass for 3 yards, just another weapon. i would like to wait till like 4th round...but i just dont see top talent lasting that long. im jealous of chiefs saints and all that speed.

I think you should probably be more envious of the play designs and calls, THAT'S the biggest difference. Look at what Payton turned Hill into, a multi faceted offensive playmaker; MM saw "QB" next to his name on the depth chart and it never occurred him to to use him otherwise.

MVS ran a 4.37 40, the guy is FAST, but you don't see him running (or faking) many sweeps. To be honest, from top to bottom, The Packers receiving group is right up there with the Saints and Chiefs, maybe not quite as good, but certainly close enough that the differences in offense shouldn't be this large.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I think you should probably be more envious of the play designs and calls, THAT'S the biggest difference. Look at what Payton turned Hill into, a multi faceted offensive playmaker; MM saw "QB" next to his name on the depth chart and it never occurred him to to use him otherwise.

MVS ran a 4.37 40, the guy is FAST, but you don't see him running (or faking) many sweeps. To be honest, from top to bottom, The Packers receiving group is right up there with the Saints and Chiefs, maybe not quite as good, but certainly close enough that the differences in offense shouldn't be this large.

Agreed and I tried to infer some of this with my previous post. I don't think either TT or MM thought a ton outside the box when it came to drafting and developing. Unless you want to include converting WR's to DB's or converting Monty from a WR to a RB. Someone is going to try and say the Packers successfully did the first with Sam Shields, but he made that switch his senior year at Miami. Monty started out looking like the multi-faceted guy you wanted, but injuries, lack of production and making a really bad decision ended that experiment.

I really think Gute is going to have to decide if that kind of player is currently on the Packers Roster (Trevor Davis?) and if he isn't, instruct scouts to start looking for one. Because IMO, the Packers could use a multi-faceted player to ignite the offense and possibly the return game.

 

[Mondio]

Hill came to camp as a QB and was cut by a GM. He's a nice athlete, but he plays in less than a handful of gadget plays with out much success to note other than he's in. if we took Aaron Rodgers out so Hill could run a 5 yard keeper I'd be pissed. Ohhh, he's returned a couple kicks too, about as well as Trevor Davis. Let's not act like he's become some phenom in NO. he's on the field once and a while. good for him.

 

[easyk83]

And btw, is it just me, or is MM running that ridiculous bunch WR set excessively this year? Where is his shotgun 5 WR empty set look? I swear I seen little to none of that except on a few occasions when AJ has been taken out of the backfield. But I swear, so much space on the field that could be used if he'd spread the receivers out more.

We started using more bunch sets back in 15 when teams were just lining up and MeTooing our receivers. The bunch set forces DBs to play off and inhibits bump and run grab n ***** coverage.

 

[shockerx]

i know this isnt the draft form, but how early would some of you guys pull the trigger on a T. hill or young sproles type player...knowing you got other giant priorities in 2019. for me earliest would be 2nd...with almost surefire stud possibilities.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Hill came to camp as a QB and was cut by a GM. He's a nice athlete, but he plays in less than a handful of gadget plays with out much success to note other than he's in. if we took Aaron Rodgers out so Hill could run a 5 yard keeper I'd be pissed. Ohhh, he's returned a couple kicks too, about as well as Trevor Davis. Let's not act like he's become some phenom in NO. he's on the field once and a while. good for him.

Gute makes cuts based on what coaches tell him and what he sees in preseason. I seriously doubt Taysom Hill is cut if MM and the Packers use him the way the Saints have, with the same success. I wasn't saying Hill is some great secret weapon, but was making the point that teams like the Saints actually think outside the box and Hill is solid proof of that.

 

[Mondio]

Gute makes cuts based on what coaches tell him and what he sees in preseason. I seriously doubt Taysom Hill is cut if MM and the Packers use him the way the Saints have, with the same success. I wasn't saying Hill is some great secret weapon, but was making the point that teams like the Saints actually think outside the box and Hill is solid proof of that.

He's an athlete and a likable guy that probably works hard. They've found a way to get a handful of plays for him in a game between offense and special teams. This is also his 2nd year with the team. He wasn't returning kicks for us, he wasn't going to play WR for us, they were hoping to bring him back, but he got signed somewhere else and after a full season of nothing, they've found a way to give him a few plays. Kudos, it's a nice story. He might even get to pass the ball once or twice this season after setting up the QB keepers. I hope he does, but again, let's not pretend he's been something there he hasn't been. We had a converted WR get 160+ yards as a running back one game. That probably eclipses all of Hill's offensive yards for the Saints in 2 seasons

The Saints look good because they play good sound football right now. Ingram and Kamara are as thunder and lightening as anyone would ever need in this league. They have a good offensive line that protects Brees well more often than not. I watch him drop back and many times there is a nice clean pocket to throw from. Lots of guys just catching passes and a defense that largely gets to play from a lead. It's fun to play defense on a team in catch up mode.

 

[rodell330]

Hope McCarthy took notes from the Chiefs/Rams game because that’s how you call plays for the offense. We have Aaron Rodgers and we can barely crack 24 pts

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Hill came to camp as a QB and was cut by a GM. He's a nice athlete, but he plays in less than a handful of gadget plays with out much success to note other than he's in. if we took Aaron Rodgers out so Hill could run a 5 yard keeper I'd be pissed. Ohhh, he's returned a couple kicks too, about as well as Trevor Davis. Let's not act like he's become some phenom in NO. he's on the field once and a while. good for him.

Why do we have to exaggerate things to argue a point? I NEVER said that Hill was some amazing player. What he is, however, is a participating player in an elite offense; he's a guy that might come into the game for 10 plays a game but on those 10 plays he give the Saints a guy the defense has to focus on and then start worrying about what he's going to do. The point is that Seaon Payton saw a guy that he thought could be a weapon in the offense to confuse defenses and force an opposing team to spend practice time defending because he can break a defense just by being on the field if a defensive player doesn't adjust accordingly. MM, on the other hand, saw a guy that wasn't a QB and cut him. You say you'd be annoyed if the team took out Rodgers to put Hill in, and yet Payton doesn't hesitate to do so with Brees to great effect. You try to minimize the potential by talking about a "5 yard keeper" but those "5 yards" have been pretty helpful for the Saints in short yardage or at the goal line.

The fact is that Sean Payton is willing to experiment with guys on offense and do unusual things. MM isn't.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It's fun to play defense on a team in catch up mode.

Unless you are the Green Bay Packers Probably just selective memory on my part, but the Capers defenses always seemed to play at their worst when the other team was forced into just letting it all out on offense. Made me always wonder why teams playing the Packers just didn't open the game with a hurry up 2 minute offense. I do think this years Defense is playing better, but when Tom Brady and Goff both went into a fast paced offense, the Packer defense struggled to stop them.

 

[Mondio]

Why do we have to exaggerate things to argue a point? I NEVER said that Hill was some amazing player. What he is, however, is a participating player in an elite offense; he's a guy that might come into the game for 10 plays a game but on those 10 plays he give the Saints a guy the defense has to focus on and then start worrying about what he's going to do. The point is that Seaon Payton saw a guy that he thought could be a weapon in the offense to confuse defenses and force an opposing team to spend practice time defending because he can break a defense just by being on the field if a defensive player doesn't adjust accordingly. MM, on the other hand, saw a guy that wasn't a QB and cut him. You say you'd be annoyed if the team took out Rodgers to put Hill in, and yet Payton doesn't hesitate to do so with Brees to great effect. You try to minimize the potential by talking about a "5 yard keeper" but those "5 yards" have been pretty helpful for the Saints in short yardage or at the goal line.

The fact is that Sean Payton is willing to experiment with guys on offense and do unusual things. MM isn't.

oh, well a few things, MM isn't the GM. He didn't cut anybody. I'd rather have Rodgers on the field for every down at QB for defenses to worry about. Hill hasn't broken a defense ever. Ohhh, he had a good run, so does Drew brees for TD's I might add. sometimes and Aaron too. and I do minimize his 5 yard keepers, because their RB's get 5 yard handoffs all the time. He's a guy that is likable, an athlete and works hard. They've found him a few plays. Good for him.

 

[Mondio]

Unless you are the Green Bay Packers Probably just selective memory on my part, but the Capers defenses always seemed to play at their worst when the other team was forced into just letting it all out on offense. Made me always wonder why teams playing the Packers just didn't open the game with a hurry up 2 minute offense. I do think this years Defense is playing better, but when Tom Brady and Goff both went into a fast paced offense, the Packer defense struggled to stop them.

It's probably more fun without Ladarius Gunter as your starting outside DB. I bet this defense we have right now would be more fun to play if our offense actually stressed the opposing team. They haven't yet

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It's probably more fun without Ladarius Gunter as your starting outside DB. I bet this defense we have right now would be more fun to play if our offense actually stressed the opposing team. They haven't yet

I will give you that.

It is amazing though in the limited games I watch, both College and Pro, the number of times you see an offense with its back to the wall and sputtering most of the day, are just able to drive down a field against a defense that is "protecting a lead". If you watched the Badger game on Saturday, Purdue had a 14 point lead (27-13) with 10 minutes left in the game and seemed to have the game won against a Badger offense that struggled most of the day. 10 minutes and 3 OT's later, the Badgers offense put 34 points on the Board.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

oh, well a few things, MM isn't the GM. He didn't cut anybody. I'd rather have Rodgers on the field for every down at QB for defenses to worry about. Hill hasn't broken a defense ever. Ohhh, he had a good run, so does Drew brees for TD's I might add. sometimes and Aaron too. and I do minimize his 5 yard keepers, because their RB's get 5 yard handoffs all the time. He's a guy that is likable, an athlete and works hard. They've found him a few plays. Good for him.

So you think MM wanted to keep Hill, told Gute not to cut him, and then Gute looked MM in the eye and said, "F you Mike, I'm gonna cut the guys I want with zero input from the coaches"? I'm fairly certain that's not how the relationship between coach and GM works.

Hill hasn't broken a defense ever? He does it constantly because teams end up covering Brees with a corner on the outside and then have to decide who else to focus on, and the DC needs to decide what kind of personnel to put in the game because they don't know if it's a pass or run. Here's a great breakdown on just a few of the things Hill was providing the Saints by early October(!) https://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2...ysom-hill-lamar-jackson-joe-flacco-drew-brees

Yes, it is good for him. It would be better for Packers fans if MM had found ways to incorporate another playmaker into this offense.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It's probably more fun without Ladarius Gunter as your starting outside DB. I bet this defense we have right now would be more fun to play if our offense actually stressed the opposing team. They haven't yet

It would be "fun" to have a "where are they now" list of some of these players that TT and the Packers were using for starters over the last 5 or so years. Yes, I know they were forced into starting duty do to injuries and all teams have these guys. but that secondary especially seemed to have a myriad of "who the hell is this guy?" playing in it.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

It would be "fun" to have a "where are they now" list of some of these players that TT and the Packers were using for starters over the last 5 or so years. Yes, I know they were forced into starting duty do to injuries and all teams have these guys. but that secondary especially seemed to have a myriad of "who the hell is this guy?" playing in it.

If I recall, Gunter's claim to fame was being slower than some dlinemen in the 40 the year he came out of college.

 

[Mondio]

So you think MM wanted to keep Hill, told Gute not to cut him, and then Gute looked MM in the eye and said, "F you Mike, I'm gonna cut the guys I want with zero input from the coaches"? I'm fairly certain that's not how the relationship between coach and GM works.

Hill hasn't broken a defense ever? He does it constantly because teams end up covering Brees with a corner on the outside and then have to decide who else to focus on, and the DC needs to decide what kind of personnel to put in the game because they don't know if it's a pass or run. Here's a great breakdown on just a few of the things Hill was providing the Saints by early October(!) https://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2...ysom-hill-lamar-jackson-joe-flacco-drew-brees

Yes, it is good for him. It would be better for Packers fans if MM had found ways to incorporate another playmaker into this offense.

I don't think if mattered. He's a gadget player, works hard and they found snaps for him. BFD. He hasn't done anything on that team that 1000 other players haven't done for every other team in the NFL including our own. He's not a better kick returner, he's not a better QB, he's not a better RB than anybody we have or the Saints have. He's a nice guy, hard worker, they like him. They found snaps for him after 2 years. Good for him. I can see us taking Jones out to run Hill for a 2 yard gain and punt. You'd be A OK with that right? LOL He'd be another reason for guys to ***** around here if that were the case.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don't think if mattered. He's a gadget player, works hard and they found snaps for him. BFD. He hasn't done anything on that team that 1000 other players haven't done for every other team in the NFL including our own. He's not a better kick returner, he's not a better QB, he's not a better RB than anybody we have or the Saints have. He's a nice guy, hard worker, they like him. They found snaps for him after 2 years. Good for him. I can see us taking Jones out to run Hill for a 2 yard gain and punt. You'd be A OK with that right? LOL He'd be another reason for guys to ***** around here if that were the case.

I get your point but it also sounds like you have been drinking from the MM Kool-Aid Fountain. "All that matters is fundamentals, execution and pad level, lets stick to what has worked in the past". The problem is, that isn't consistently getting the job done anymore. The powerhouse offenses of yesteryear were still making mistakes, having their share of injuries, but on most Sundays, defenses struggled to stop them. When was the last time the Packer offense looked unstoppable? On paper this offense looks pretty good, but why aren't they showing that on the field consistently?

Rodgers bag of "free plays" have all but vanished, the hurry up quick hitting offense seems to be gone. The offense seems content to line up, run the play clock to 0 and hope the defense gives them something. I have said this for most of the season, would love to see the Packers trot out there on offense Sunday night and just attack the Viking defense with a no huddle, fast paced mix of A. Jones running and quick passes to every available receiver on the field.

 

[Mondio]

I get your point but it also sounds like you have been drinking from the MM Kool-Aid Fountain. "All that matters is fundamentals, execution and pad level, lets stick to what has worked in the past". The problem is, that isn't consistently getting the job done anymore. The powerhouse offenses of yesteryear were still making mistakes, having their share of injuries, but on most Sundays, defenses struggled to stop them. When was the last time the Packer offense looked unstoppable? On paper this offense looks pretty good, but why aren't they showing that on the field consistently?

Rodgers bag of "free plays" have all but vanished, the hurry up quick hitting offense seems to be gone. The offense seems content to line up, run the play clock to 0 and hope the defense gives them something. I have said this for most of the season, would love to see the Packers trot out there on offense Sunday night and just attack the Viking defense with a no huddle, fast paced mix of A. Jones running and quick passes to every available receiver on the field.

It's not MM's kook aid, it's from the dawn of time the best advice you'll ever be given in life. You think Vince was about tricks or fundamentals? There are literally 10,000 different plays you could all on offense with the same personnel groupings, more if you want to switch it up. ALL of them will work at some times, most of them will work most times and there are a few that will work every time provided you just do them well. Like I said before I could beat 90% of the guys I had to wrestle all the way up till I quit in college with a variation of the single leg, variations of a half nelson and an escape. The 3 first moves I ever learned when I was 5. Everything is about fundamentals. Offense, defense, special teams. It's all fundamentals that's it. Don't fool yourself into thinking it's anything other than fundamentals. I get it, you don't like MM, lots of people don't. I'm not even defending HIM, but fundamentals is where it's at. No coach worth a **** thinks otherwise.

There have been times this year our offense has looked really good, and sputtered others. Trick plays aren't going to do it. Having your Rookie WR sit in the zone when he's open and not run into coverage for an incomplete pass and punt instead of a fresh set of downs is what is going to spark this offense rather than kill it. Taking Rodgers off the field to run a run with 3rd string QB isn't going to make this offense tick. Hill doesn't make that offense Tick, not even remotely so. If we can't get Aaron Freaking Rodgers and a WR to have enough confidence in each other to attack the middle of the field like this offense needs what's a trick play going to do when the defense can go right back to defending what they know the QB is going to do. and it's not all the "schemes" fault.

This offense has shot itself in the foot with redzone and 3rd down penalties all year, or bad holding calls, and earlier dropped passes etc. If you want to get on the coach about that, go ahead, i'd agree. I still don't buy "scheme" there are a lot of them and most of them will work. this one will work. Provided they actually run it.