Lazard Situation...

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You do speak the truth about TE's. Usually takes a season or two to develop. Obviously, it is an unknown. I still say that I would rather have our TE group than the Bears. I'm definitely not high on Tonyan. Personal preference I guess. I just don't think he is any good. Don't sleep on Deguara either. This may be his break out season. He's had three seasons to develop and he now... Yeah, I can't even type that and believe it either.

Don't get me wrong, I believe the Packers' tight end group has the potential to develop into a much better unit than the Bears' down the road. But I don't expect them to put up better numbers in 2023.

I think typically across the board the majority of TEs drafted, even the high ones are not put in a scenario where they're being asked to carrying a big chunk of the snaps and possibly the starting in line jobs. Kraft or Musgrave is going to have to emerge as the main inline tight end here unless we sign someone...that alone is going to raise their production by sheer presence of snaps. Won't necessarily mean they're better than some other recent young TEs that didn't produce say the same stat line.

The first three tight ends selected in the 2022 draft all played a decent amount of snaps (McBride 599, Woods 334, Dulcich 497) despite none of them being a first rounder. None of them came close to being as productive as Kmet or Tonyan. Therefore I don't expect Musgrave and/or Kraft to put up impressive numbers in their rookie season either.

Why wouldn't Tonyan put up more than at least one of them? He is the surefire TE2 in Chicago....limited experienced pass catchers in their WR room and Tonyan has solid hands, above average TE IQ and experience making things happen in the NFL. Not too mention Tonyan is arguably their #4 receiving option if not 3b..Mooney and Moore are the only two for sure pass catchers ahead of him and he may be on par with Kmet at this point in Coles' young career.

Musgrave and Kraft are for sure going to be behind Watson and Doubs...most likely Reed and at first perhaps Deguara as well out of the TE and WRs.

As mentioned before in this thread, I fully expect the Bears' tight ends to put up better numbers than the Packers'.
 
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(McBride 599, Woods 334, Dulcich 497) despite none of them being a first rounder. None of them came close to being as productive as Kmet or Tonyan. Therefore I don't expect Musgrave and/or Kraft to put up impressive numbers in their rookie season either.
First of All, Tonyan got fed the 2nd most targets of any Packers receiver and he averaged 8.9 and 470 yards. Certainly not unattainable for our Rookies.

Secondly, Arizona used 4 QB’s and that did have some negative impact on their TE group. Ertz was TE1 and he had a career low or near career lows in many categories. That in itself shows they had problems with their Passing game as a whole. McBride was a clear TE2

Thirdly, Denver had all sorts of issues. Russell barely cracked 60% comp and 3,500 passing. He ranked #27 passing with a 37% QB rating. Dulcich singularly did ok (for a Rookie)considering the environment

Fourthly, you said “or” That logically infers “1” or “the other” or “BOTH” combined, thus seeing as we drafted and possess both guys? Then it should be viewed as combined effort.
Ironically, The Packers have TWO TE’s that are somewhat comparable to that good group of TE 2022 Rookies you listed above, which is an anomaly of sorts.
Kraft + Musgrave combined=
Dulcich + McBride combined.
Mainly because GB currently has no entrenched TE1. Meaning they can finish TE1/TE3; TE1/TE2; TE2/TE3 Therefore I submit that we should consider the combined effect of both verses unilaterally.

I think our TE Rookies as a pair can sniff or surpass Tonyans career high yards. I’ll be impressed if our brand spanking new pair TE’s get near or past Tonyans career high yardage.
 
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First of All, Tonyan got fed the 2nd most targets of any Packers receiver and he averaged 8.9 and 470 yards. Certainly not unattainable for our Rookies.

Secondly, Arizona used 4 QB’s and that did have some negative impact on their TE group. Ertz was TE1 and he had a career low or near career lows in many categories. That in itself shows they had problems with their Passing game as a whole. McBride was a clear TE2

Thirdly, Denver had all sorts of issues. Russell barely cracked 60% comp and 3,500 passing. He ranked #27 passing with a 37% QB rating. Dulcich singularly did ok (for a Rookie)considering the environment

I expect the Packers to have issues with the passing game this season as well. With most tight ends taking some time to have an impact at the pro level I don't expect Musgrave and Kraft to put up similar numbers as Tonyan did last year.

Fourthly, you said “or” That logically infers “1” or “the other” or “BOTH” combined, thus seeing as we drafted and possess both guys? Then it should be viewed as combined effort.

Well, I don't consider two players combining to put up the same numbers as one as being as successful though.

I think our TE Rookies as a pair can sniff or surpass Tonyans career high yards. I’ll be impressed if our brand spanking new pair TE’s get near or past Tonyans career high yardage.

I agree that might be possible but as posted above wouldn't be that impressive in the first place.
 

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I think I agree that if you compare the 2 rookies total numbers it should be against Tonyan and Lewis' numbers combined.
 
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tynimiller

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I think I agree that if you compare the 2 rookies total numbers it should be against Tonyan and Lewis' numbers combined.

I concur, and I think so long as Musgrave and Kraft stay healthy I fully expect personally they can put forth actually better production in stats of receiving yards, targets and receptions and most likely TDs too. I however, still fully believe Deguara is going to have his best year yet, with MLF running the offense IMO more on reliance of his system and not his HOF QB
 

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I expect the Packers to have issues with the passing game this season as well. With most tight ends taking some time to have an impact at the pro level I don't expect Musgrave and Kraft to put up similar numbers as Tonyan did last year.
I hope the coaches don't make it ridiculously difficult to understand how to block or use the playbook. I honestly don't think that their lack of experience will hurt them as much as the statistics say they will. Coaches just don't want to use rookies very much and that certainly affects statistics. This year LaFleur does not have a lot of options. We will see, but I think these two TEs will be able to go out for a pass and catch the ball.
 
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Well, I don't consider two players combining to put up the same numbers as one as being as successful though.
You have your opinion I have mine.

If we get TE Rookie only production of 600+ yards (Tonyan career high+) I’m absolutely elated. If we pass that by 100 yards mark? (700 yards) I’m nominating Brian Gutenkunst as Mayor of GB
 
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tynimiller

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You have your opinion I have mine.

If we get TE Rookie only production of 600+ yards (Tonyan career high+) I’m absolutely elated. If we pass that by 100 yards mark? (700 yards) I’m nominating Brian Gutenkunst as Mayor of GB

Here’s a hot take for you, I think if all stay healthy Deguara is my betting favorite for most yards…but none of them may break 600.

Funny thing is unless you have a truly elite level all world TE I’ve always looked at them as a room production wise.

I don’t care how it happens but I’d love to have a TE room where the top three are producing over 1,000 yards…chipping in with at least a half dozen red zone TEs and a few other non RZ to start.
 
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Funny thing is unless you have a truly elite level all world TE I’ve always looked at them as a room production wise.

I don’t care how it happens but I’d love to have a TE room where the top three are producing over 1,000 yards…chipping in with at least a half dozen red zone TEs and a few other non RZ to start.
Yes. That 1000 is EXACTLY the mark I considered as a fantastic goal for our TE group by next season.
Our 2023 top 3 TE’s produced 590 yards last season. I would be pretty stoked if our 2 Rookies put up 600+ yards.
The TE room (4 players) put up 616 yards last season. A reasonable goal for the TE room this year is 750 yards. If we do that with 2 Rookies involved? We’re well on our way to that 1000 in a couple seasons.

If we get anything over 400+ yards this season from Deguara, I think we’re in for a big treat in 2024-2025. My hopes were Josiah would rise last season after a strong 2021 finish
 
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tynimiller

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Yes. That 1000 is EXACTLY the mark I considered as a fantastic goal for our TE group by next season.
Our 2023 top 3 TE’s produced 590 yards last season. I would be pretty stoked if our 2 Rookies put up 600+ yards.
The TE room (4 players) put up 616 yards last season. A reasonable goal for the TE room this year is 750 yards. If we do that with 2 Rookies involved? We’re well on our way to that 1000 in a couple seasons.

If we get anything over 400+ yards this season from Deguara, I think we’re in for a big treat in 2024-2025. My hopes were Josiah would rise last season after a strong 2021 finish

Josiah was limited by Tonyan getting the flexed and second inline TE snaps and with us messing around with the Dillon/Jones dual backfield...personally I think we see Deguara snaps and usage more akin to him when Tonyan went down and before his rookie injury. It's clear to me at least MLF system is made for such a guy...not ever as the TE1 but I think early on Josiah is going to have a lot to say with the direction of that position group production wise and snap wise.
 
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Josiah was limited by Tonyan getting the flexed and second inline TE snaps and with us messing around with the Dillon/Jones dual backfield...personally I think we see Deguara snaps and usage more akin to him when Tonyan went down and before his rookie injury. It's clear to me at least MLF system is made for such a guy...not ever as the TE1 but I think early on Josiah is going to have a lot to say with the direction of that position group production wise and snap wise.
That thought seems reasonable. It’s how it should work anyway as veterans should be given a chance to elevate over a Rook.

When I look at Musgrave I see Young Jimmy Graham type potential. His athletic profile is exceptional. He could almost be used in a similar capacity early on. Love sure has some big targets to throw to.
 
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You have your opinion I have mine.

If we get TE Rookie only production of 600+ yards (Tonyan career high+) I’m absolutely elated. If we pass that by 100 yards mark? (700 yards) I’m nominating Brian Gutenkunst as Mayor of GB
Would he be able to beat Chuck? You have confused me again. I thought Chuck was going to be the mayor.
 

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You have your opinion I have mine.

If we get TE Rookie only production of 600+ yards (Tonyan career high+) I’m absolutely elated. If we pass that by 100 yards mark? (700 yards) I’m nominating Brian Gutenkunst as Mayor of GB
It's not like WRs when we have 3 on the field at the same time, usually just 1. So lumping their production together isn't an issue.
 

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I think the packers can do well with Jones or Dillon in the backfield, kraft, musgrave or deguara at te, watson, doubs, and reed at wr

That group should be able to make some big plays
 
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I think I agree that if you compare the 2 rookies total numbers it should be against Tonyan and Lewis' numbers combined.

In that case at least one of them has to excel at blocking like Lewis did as well though.

I hope the coaches don't make it ridiculously difficult to understand how to block or use the playbook. I honestly don't think that their lack of experience will hurt them as much as the statistics say they will. Coaches just don't want to use rookies very much and that certainly affects statistics. This year LaFleur does not have a lot of options. We will see, but I think these two TEs will be able to go out for a pass and catch the ball.

There have been a lot of rookie tight ends who have received significant playing time but yet failed to put up impressive numbers. It's a difficult position to learn at the pro level and I don't expect that to be different for Musgrave and Kraft.

You have your opinion I have mine.

If we get TE Rookie only production of 600+ yards (Tonyan career high+) I’m absolutely elated. If we pass that by 100 yards mark? (700 yards) I’m nominating Brian Gutenkunst as Mayor of GB

If either Musgrave or Kraft put up 600 receiving yards I would be extremely happy. If both of them combine to achieve that numbers not so much though.
 

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And when you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way.

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You would have to be old to get this reference. Unfortunately I'm old enough to get it..:(
And when you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way.

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And when you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way.

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