GakkofNorway
Cheesehead
I believe the signing of Woodson will improve our secondary vastly, perhaps Carroll will develop better covering 3rd WRs.. He was thrown into the fire by MS
Since69 said:tromadz said:Are you saying Carroll is better than Al Harris?
Carroll was easily better than Harris the last half of the season. I think there's a real chance that Harris will be the Nickel back.
Bruce said:Further, there were 71 cornerbacks in the league burned more often than Carroll was, including Atlanta's DeAngelo Hall, the eighth pick in the draft the year Carroll was drafted 25th; Marcus Trufant, Seattle's third-year corner and budding all-pro; Chris Gamble, who was chosen three picks after Carroll in '04; Ike Taylor, Pittsburgh's third-year starting corner; and even Mike McKenzie and Al Harris.
all about da packers said:Timmons, fizz has been dealt with. It was Chase coming back to start his ruccus again, but he changed his IP to get past our bans. How can you deal with someone so intent on being an *** that he will switch internet companies to get back on here? :-? I thank you for your concern, and apologize for letting chase slip through the crack and start up his nonsense again.
BACK ON TOPIC:
I think this is am amazing improvement by far. Our secondary is definitly better, but I believe it will be a while before we see the real talent of our Safties.
Woodson and Harris are an amazing combo. I expect Woodson to be a little slow at the start, get up to game speed, then start to show he can still be a shutdown corner and awsome playmakes. Harris is going to be as steady as the rock of Gibraulter. :wink:
I think Carroll will learn a great deal and mature better from being a backup. Same with Hawkins. Being a 4th CB will do wonders for this kid, as he will have the oppertunity to catch up on the mental side of the game. Let's not forget this kid had been out of top notch football for a few years before the Packers drafted him. He has one heck of a learning curve, getting accustomed to the NFL game while getting upto speed on the stuff he would have learned in NCAA.
I expect Collins to continue to grow, but I also expect Roman/Manuel to be a stop gap solution. I think that Underwood has AMAZING potential, he just needs time to develop. Underwood has SPEED, POWER, and packs a PUNCH when he hits. He just needs to get used to the speed and level of talent of the NFL.
tromadz said:yeah they should DEVELOP in 2-3 years. they should PROGRESS as years go on.
yet entering his third year, he is coming off the bench. He is a nickel\dime CB. What a great 1st round CB. No.
tromadz said:I'll admit(as I have done before) he has improved (not progressing would have been amazing, but all he has done is go from 'horrible' to 'bad').
I guess it is just my fault that i expected the #1 round CB to be more than a nickel-dimer in his 3rd year.
That IS my problem(not yours) and I apologize.
Bruce said:]Carroll is not responsible for Mike McKenzie's melt down, he is not responsible for Slowik's clusterfluck defense that was a disaster, nor is he responsible for being only 20 years old being thrown to the lions during a year when the league changed the rules saying CB needed to wear skirts (after allowing them to mug receivers the season before).
No objective person could say they saw no improvement last season or that the guy is not an NFL player. At 20 years old he beat out the competition two years in a row to start in the NFL -- are you really so naive as to think that any bum can do that?
How can you look at a team that went from close to dead last in pass defense to #1 and say you saw no improvement? Look at the numbers and try and make your evaluations based on something more than your emotional reaction to the guy. Do you really think you are a better evaluator than Bates -- who selected Carroll to start over the competition?
tromadz said:Bruce said:Further, there were 71 cornerbacks in the league burned more often than Carroll was, including Atlanta's DeAngelo Hall, the eighth pick in the draft the year Carroll was drafted 25th; Marcus Trufant, Seattle's third-year corner and budding all-pro; Chris Gamble, who was chosen three picks after Carroll in '04; Ike Taylor, Pittsburgh's third-year starting corner; and even Mike McKenzie and Al Harris.
These posts caused me to talk to one of my pals(not a packers fan, he's a pats fan, and has been before the championships).
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Tromadz: theres a "Ahmad Carroll is better than Al Harris" movement on packerforum
JDOldSchool: lol
JDOldSchool: we need to make computers too difficult to use for stupid people
Tromadz: yes
Tromadz: i guess theres a target\burn stat and theres 71 guys who were worse than carroll
Tromadz: but any stat where carroll is better than harris is a stupid stat
JDOldSchool: yeah, we discussed how flawed that stat is
JDOldSchool: for a lot of reasons
JDOldSchool: 1) doesn't include all the times Carroll commits a penalty
JDOldSchool: 2) Carroll is guarding #2 or #3 receivers, they're not as capable of burning a DB
JDOldSchool: almost every #1 CB is gonna get burned here and there
Tromadz: yeah
Tromadz: I dont remember Chad Johnson calling Carroll the 2nd best CB in the league
JDOldSchool: oh, the other flaw with that stat
JDOldSchool: Does that stat take into account all the times the QB doesn't throw a DBs way?
JDOldSchool: Like, Harris has his guy covered so the QB checks down to the RB or something
Tromadz: and what about zones
Tromadz: etc
Tromadz: yeah the statistic is stupid
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I forgot I discussed this stat with him a long time ago, and it was silly then too. That convo sums up what you should think about THAT "statistic."
tromadz said:That PM you sent me(thanks for the response) didn't say 1 thing on how they get this OH-SO-VALUABLE statistic...
how do they get it?
Any stat where Carroll is better than Harris(and a lot of those other very good CBs) is not a stat to take seriously.
Not until we know how they get it (I have a feeling it will be the defensive version of the QB rating[which is f'n stupid' ).
QB Rating:
NFL Quarterback Rating Formula
(National Football League)
a = (((Comp/Att) * 100) -30) / 20
b = ((TDs/Att) * 100) / 5
c = (9.5 - ((Int/Att) * 100)) / 4
d = ((Yards/Att) - 3) / 4
a, b, c and d can not be greater than 2.375 or less than zero.
QB Rating = (a + b + c + d) / .06
Some stats are more valuable(and just more informative) than others. A lot of people in baseball look at AVG, when some look at OBP, which to a lot is more important.
Some(myself included) think the QB rating is silly, and that completion % is more important.
I'd just like to know HOW this stat is acquired. What it includes, and what it doesn't.
Bruce said:You and Porky in your obsessive need to make it about Carroll try to highjack the thread with silly nitpicking arguments that are not backed up by facts.
Porky, when the guy says that he is excited about the opportunity to learn from Woodson and Harris -- that is a good attitude. He has been coming to workouts and is at voluntary camp -- that is a good attitude.
Do you really think you are a better evaluator than Bates -- who selected Carroll to start over the competition?
porky88 said:Bruce said:You and Porky in your obsessive need to make it about Carroll try to highjack the thread with silly nitpicking arguments that are not backed up by facts.
The facts were stated in my last post. Do I think it's possible for Carroll to be a good player in this league. Yes, I do. I never disputed that.
I guess the fact that I said Bruce I hope your right means. I can't stand Carroll either and I have an obsessive hatred towards... :roll:
Like you stated
Porky, when the guy says that he is excited about the opportunity to learn from Woodson and Harris -- that is a good attitude. He has been coming to workouts and is at voluntary camp -- that is a good attitude.
That's blind loyalty.. He clearly has a poor attitude thus far. Perhaps he's changed.. I doubt it. Once again he was arrested and did get into fights. We don’t know who started it and we won't know but the FACT remain those things did occur. His cocky attitude shows on the field as well. Going to camp and saying he wants to learn doesn’t give a player a good attitude. It’s a start in the right direction though, I’ll say that.
[quote:3qdmraf0]Do you really think you are a better evaluator than Bates -- who selected Carroll to start over the competition?
tromadz said:porky88 said:Bruce said:You and Porky in your obsessive need to make it about Carroll try to highjack the thread with silly nitpicking arguments that are not backed up by facts.
The facts were stated in my last post. Do I think it's possible for Carroll to be a good player in this league. Yes, I do. I never disputed that.
I guess the fact that I said Bruce I hope your right means. I can't stand Carroll either and I have an obsessive hatred towards... :roll:
Like you stated
Porky, when the guy says that he is excited about the opportunity to learn from Woodson and Harris -- that is a good attitude. He has been coming to workouts and is at voluntary camp -- that is a good attitude.
That's blind loyalty.. He clearly has a poor attitude thus far. Perhaps he's changed.. I doubt it. Once again he was arrested and did get into fights. We don’t know who started it and we won't know but the FACT remain those things did occur. His cocky attitude shows on the field as well. Going to camp and saying he wants to learn doesn’t give a player a good attitude. It’s a start in the right direction though, I’ll say that.
[quote:1jforn00]Do you really think you are a better evaluator than Bates -- who selected Carroll to start over the competition?
As stated the competition was Joey Thomas, Mike Hawkins and Jason Horton. Carroll was the 2nd most experienced CB on the roster. The competition just wasn't there last year.
As for the stat do you take an account zone coverage’s, double teams, mis communications.
That stat helps support your argument that Carroll isn't a lost cause but the stat doesn't show talent and in talent the CB's you listed that Carroll did better than are all better players than Carroll at this point in their careers. Some were young and some were vets.
Here’s a stat. Carroll is one of the most penalized DB’s in the last two years.
I think Carroll is going to be a great nickel back for us or someone else perhaps in the future but I don't think he'll ever amount to being a solid starter based on what I saw in the NFL(so far) and in College.
Bruce said:You take the number of times an offense attempts to target a particular player, then you factor it against the number of times they are successful, you than factor in the average gain when a pass is completed against that player.
I understand the STAT and what it is and what it is not. Just because you do NOT does not mean every one is as ignorant as you.
BTW I intentionally used the word ignorant (not knowing) Vs stupid (not being capable of knowing)
tromadz said:Bruce said:You take the number of times an offense attempts to target a particular player, then you factor it against the number of times they are successful, you than factor in the average gain when a pass is completed against that player.
I understand the STAT and what it is and what it is not. Just because you do NOT does not mean every one is as ignorant as you.
BTW I intentionally used the word ignorant (not knowing) Vs stupid (not being capable of knowing)
oh, YOU know how it works, even though you say you can't afford to find out how it works, but you KNOW how it works. That's amazing. So you also KNOW if it does\doesn't include zone defenses?
Please, educate me. Apparently I am very ignorant because you know more about a stat you claim you can't afford to get the specifics on. amazing! Please teach me.
Bruce said:First, I never said I cannot afford to by it -- I can. I said I do not need to as I already have access.
Of course it includes zone defenses -- but only if the offense attacks a specific zone that a player is responsible for.