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From ???s to position of strength...

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Bruce, May 21, 2006.

  1. GakkofNorway

    GakkofNorway Cheesehead

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    I believe the signing of Woodson will improve our secondary vastly, perhaps Carroll will develop better covering 3rd WRs.. He was thrown into the fire by MS
     
  2. CaliforniaCheez

    CaliforniaCheez Cheesehead

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    04 there was a real problem with the way the secondary was coached(Uh, Schottenheimer is back).

    My point on Carroll is the single best thing that improved his attitude and play was the cutting of Joey Thomas.

    I think fans will allow for rookie mistakes. I think what disappoints fans more than anything else was the perceived lask of improvement from Carroll after his rookie year. The skipping of the of season program last year when a new D coordinator was brought in hurt his development.

    The perception out there is that Carroll is not as coachable as most players. I hope there is evidence of improvement in him as we saw after Joe Thomas was cut.
     
  3. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

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    Timmons, fizz has been dealt with. It was Chase coming back to start his ruccus again, but he changed his IP to get past our bans. How can you deal with someone so intent on being an a$$ that he will switch internet companies to get back on here? :-? I thank you for your concern, and apologize for letting chase slip through the crack and start up his nonsense again.

    BACK ON TOPIC:

    I think this is am amazing improvement by far. Our secondary is definitly better, but I believe it will be a while before we see the real talent of our Safties.

    Woodson and Harris are an amazing combo. I expect Woodson to be a little slow at the start, get up to game speed, then start to show he can still be a shutdown corner and awsome playmakes. Harris is going to be as steady as the rock of Gibraulter. :wink:

    I think Carroll will learn a great deal and mature better from being a backup. Same with Hawkins. Being a 4th CB will do wonders for this kid, as he will have the oppertunity to catch up on the mental side of the game. Let's not forget this kid had been out of top notch football for a few years before the Packers drafted him. He has one heck of a learning curve, getting accustomed to the NFL game while getting upto speed on the stuff he would have learned in NCAA.

    I expect Collins to continue to grow, but I also expect Roman/Manuel to be a stop gap solution. I think that Underwood has AMAZING potential, he just needs time to develop. Underwood has SPEED, POWER, and packs a PUNCH when he hits. He just needs to get used to the speed and level of talent of the NFL.
     
  4. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    These posts caused me to talk to one of my pals(not a packers fan, he's a pats fan, and has been before the championships).
    -----------------


    Tromadz: theres a "Ahmad Carroll is better than Al Harris" movement on packerforum
    JDOldSchool: lol
    JDOldSchool: we need to make computers too difficult to use for stupid people
    Tromadz: yes
    Tromadz: i guess theres a target\burn stat and theres 71 guys who were worse than carroll
    Tromadz: but any stat where carroll is better than harris is a stupid stat
    JDOldSchool: yeah, we discussed how flawed that stat is
    JDOldSchool: for a lot of reasons
    JDOldSchool: 1) doesn't include all the times Carroll commits a penalty
    JDOldSchool: 2) Carroll is guarding #2 or #3 receivers, they're not as capable of burning a DB
    JDOldSchool: almost every #1 CB is gonna get burned here and there
    Tromadz: yeah
    Tromadz: I dont remember Chad Johnson calling Carroll the 2nd best CB in the league
    JDOldSchool: oh, the other flaw with that stat
    JDOldSchool: Does that stat take into account all the times the QB doesn't throw a DBs way?
    JDOldSchool: Like, Harris has his guy covered so the QB checks down to the RB or something
    Tromadz: and what about zones
    Tromadz: etc
    Tromadz: yeah the statistic is stupid
    ------------------

    I forgot I discussed this stat with him a long time ago, and it was silly then too. That convo sums up what you should think about THAT "statistic."
     
  5. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    Why? I was having fun with him! How to ban him for good? Depends on the range of IP's he's using.


    TOPIC:
    Carroll is better than Harris, in the nickel position ;)
     
  6. D.Levens

    D.Levens Banned Banned

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    I agree with you Bruce..

    (some people don't understand that rookies need 2-3 years to develop in the NFL..)

    ummm..don't we have alot of rookies this year since we're building through the draft?
     
  7. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    yeah they should DEVELOP in 2-3 years. they should PROGRESS as years go on.

    yet entering his third year, he is coming off the bench. He is a nickel\dime CB. What a great 1st round CB. No.
     
  8. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    C'mon trom.....he has progressed. The only reason he MAY be coming off the bench is because we signed an all-pro at his position.

    It's not his fault that he was a #1 draft pick. If that was unwarranted then blame Sherman not Carroll. I think he will contribute greatly this season.
     
  9. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    I'll admit(as I have done before) he has improved (not progressing would have been amazing, but all he has done is go from 'horrible' to 'bad').

    I guess it is just my fault that i expected the #1 round CB to be more than a nickel-dimer in his 3rd year.

    That IS my problem(not yours) and I apologize.
     
  10. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    All this negativity coming from a guy who religiously plays as #28 on defense with his Madden Football game. tsk tsk tsk.

    Admit your manCrush on Carroll!
     
  11. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    Carroll is very responsible for his play on the field. He hasn't lived up to what he was drafted for and he continues to struggle. When teams look on film and figure ways to exploit the Packers they look at Ahmad Carroll and the run defense.

    I hope this wasn't directed to me. I never said a bum could come in and play. He won the job by default. Your riding the pine of his attitude by saying he said he looks forward to learning from Harris or Woodson. What else did you expect him to say? I should be starting?? It’s one thing to say all the right things but it’s another thing to show a bad attitude and bad play on and off the field. He’s done both. Maybe both have improved. Maybe only one improved. That’s what we’ll see this year.

    Last year he had Joey Thomas (drafted same year) and Mike Hawkins (rookie last year) on the roster to compete with. Green Bay had high hopes for him and he struggle. Maybe he‘s like Terrell Buckley and just needs a change in scenery. CB is not a terribly hard position to adjust to the NFL. It's tough going from 1 system to another though. I'll give him that. This year will be his 2nd year in the same system. He needs to improve this season. He's in a good situation to do so. If he doesn't then his roster spot could be in jeopardy. It is not naïve to say a player that has struggled for 2 seasons in a league that expects production early out of their picks to be released by a GM who didn’t draft him.

    Green Bay was #1 in pass because teams would pound the ball on the Packers with the run. We didn't have the top secondary in football. Everyone knows that. That's why we brought in Woodson. Teams first priority was establishing the run and set the pass up after that. Kyle Boller torch the Packers secondary. That stat was very deceiving because the rushing defense was so poor last year.

    I do look at the numbers. I look at the penalties, the plays he got burned from and the fact that are biggest weakness last year was Ahmad Carroll and the run defense. Call that film. Teams picked on Ahmad Carroll especially the first half of the year. Did he improve the 2nd half. A little bit but nothing spectacular like you making it sound to approve your argument that he has talent. You clearly overvalue him as a player and his potential level. His first year he didn't play like a 1st round pick. That's ok sometimes you get that with rookies. His 2nd year he still played like a rookie. He committed 11 penalties in his first year and didn't start right away either. He committed another 8 last year. He lost his job and then got it back.

    As for Bates picking him to start. Well who else was there. Mike Hawkins, Joey Thomas and Jason Horton. Again your trying to make it sound like he had to compete with vets that were in the league for a long time to make your argument look legit. The fact is he was competing with players with less experienced than him. He was the 2nd most experienced CB on our roster last year which shows why this team struggled and was desperate for defensive backs. Neither of those guys are starting NFL Caliber CB's going into the 2005 season. Everyone with in the Green Bay organization new Carroll won the job by default which is why we brought in Woodson to solidify our secondary and to upgrade a weakness. Carroll was not ready to be a starting CB in the NFL. Part of that is the coaches fault but he didn't progress from year 1 to year 2 either like his potential claims he should have. He needs to make a significant improvement in locating the ball while it's in the air, his footwork, he needs to improve his bump and run coverage as well, and his release after 5 yards. He's not built for the bump and run but needs to get stronger. He's had time to do all of this now. It's year 3. It's time to show it on the field as our nickel back.

    This defensive secondary is better now because of the signings of Manuel and Woodson, not because of Ahmad Carroll. Carroll is more than a serviceable nickel back but not living up to his 1st round status thus far. If Mike Hawkins develops enough to pass Carroll, I wouldn't be shocked to see him traded or released.
     
  12. JbShell

    JbShell Cheesehead

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    bottom line is this GB d stats were skewed last year because teams did not need to rely on big gains through the air. (except for Boller) who we made look like a friggin pro bowler.

    I am of the camp that thinks carroll is playing the wrong position. he is more a safety than a cb. remember Sharper when he first came to GB wasnt he a cb who got shifted to safety. the man could not take an angle to save his life.

    anyway i think carroll must have marked improvement on fundementals of the posistion if he hopes to stay in GB I know I wouls not tolerate what has transpired
     
  13. Greg C.

    Greg C. Cheesehead

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    Good initial post, although the thread did kind of get hijacked by Carroll-haters. Carroll is a jerk, but he played better toward the end of last season, and he should be fine at the nickel position. The fact that we are arguing over our NICKEL BACK says something about how good our secondary is looking right now.

    I will add that I like the way the entire defense is looking for this team. Of course there are a lot of questions, especially the coaching abilities of McCarthy and Sanders, but I am expecting this defense to be in the top half of the league and maybe even top ten.
     
  14. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    First of all -- I never said that Carroll was better than Harris. He is not, he may have more physical ability (he is faster, stronger and a better tackler) but Harris is one of the smartest CB in the game. He uses his long arms to get leverage in the bump and run and uses his experience to shorten the field by taking great angles and by having seen most of what receivers and QB try to throw at him. He honed those skills as a nickle back for many years -- despite you acting as if it is not an important postition.

    Further, it is not a single stat it a compulation of stats looking at the number of times a team tries to target a DB factored against the number of times they are successful and the ave. gain.

    Like all stats this is not a perfect formula, but it is filled with useful information. And it gives you very meaningful information on which to measure you own evaluation of a players performance.

    You and someone else earlier asked where I get Stats like that -- one source is STATS. Below is a description of the service they provide.

    This company takes sports fans beyond the win-loss column. STATS, LLC (formerly STATS, Inc.) is the world's leading provider of sports information and statistics, offering up-to-the-minute data on nearly every major sport through a network of reporters. It sells the data to news organizations, magazines, television sports networks, and other media outlets, including CBS Sports, ESPN, and Yahoo! STATS also licenses its data for use in fantasy sports games, trading cards, and video games, as well as for use on the Web sites of many professional sports teams. STATS is a 50-50 joint venture between News Corporation and The Associated Press.

    Before you call information 'silly' or 'stupid' you might want to learn what it is you are talking about before offering your deep and insightful analysis. I give you credit for PM me and asking where I get info like that, but then I come here and read this and think -- same old Trom.
     
  15. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

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    Woah, I don't think Bruce was implying Carroll is better than Harris, I think his point was that Carroll hasn't done the worst job in the world.

    As for th econversation between Trom and his friend, Carroll and Harris often will switch WR's, so this means Harriss will cover the #1 WR and Carroll the #2 WR, but many times the WR's will switch and Carroll will be on the #1 WR while Harris will be on the #2 WR.
     
  16. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    That PM you sent me(thanks for the response) didn't say 1 thing on how they get this OH-SO-VALUABLE statistic...

    how do they get it?

    Any stat where Carroll is better than Harris(and a lot of those other very good CBs) is not a stat to take seriously.

    Not until we know how they get it (I have a feeling it will be the defensive version of the QB rating[which is f'n stupid' ).

    QB Rating:

    NFL Quarterback Rating Formula
    (National Football League)

    a = (((Comp/Att) * 100) -30) / 20
    b = ((TDs/Att) * 100) / 5
    c = (9.5 - ((Int/Att) * 100)) / 4
    d = ((Yards/Att) - 3) / 4

    a, b, c and d can not be greater than 2.375 or less than zero.

    QB Rating = (a + b + c + d) / .06

    Some stats are more valuable(and just more informative) than others. A lot of people in baseball look at AVG, when some look at OBP, which to a lot is more important.

    Some(myself included) think the QB rating is silly, and that completion % is more important.

    I'd just like to know HOW this stat is acquired. What it includes, and what it doesn't.
     
  17. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    I just told you above an abbreviated version how it is figured. You seem to base your evaluations on emotional reactions -- which are your rights as a fan to have and to express. But for you to throw such strong opinions without any objective analysis and then expect me to have to go into depth explaining the formula is over-the-top -- especially given the total lack of respect you have shown me over time and your seeming unwillingness to consider facts Vs your OH-SO-VALUABLE opinions...

    Look, I posted an evaluation piece on the secondary as a whole. You and Porky in your obsessive need to make it about Carroll try to highjack the thread with silly nitpicking arguments that are not backed up by facts.

    The facts say the Packers went from the 24th ranked defense to the number 8 ranked defense. The pass defense went from near the bottom 30th to #1 statistically. This happened despite the offense turning the ball often far move often and not having an effective running game to control the ball.

    The facts also show that Carroll was not targeted at a particularly high rate and when he was he responded better than you seem to care to remember – but that is not the point.

    The whole premise of my post was the Packers improved significantly from 2004 to 2005 -- which looking at the facts they clearly did (esp. in the secondary). Now with the pickup of Woodson and Manuel and the added experience gained by Collins, Carroll and Hawkins and the fact that all three are participating in the team off-season workouts, the competition that will come from Blackmon and young hungry physical players hoping for a shot, and the fact that the defense will play the same system two seasons in a row for the first time in 4 years all seem to indicate that the defensive backfield will be even better in 2006 – and I think start to produce takeaways that are vital to a team’s success.

    I apologize if my attempt to infuse actual football discussion interfered with your agenda or rants against Carroll – God knows you have certainly wasted tons of thread space overtime with your obsession.

    However, I was intending to do similar evaluations of the LB, DE, DT, OL, TE, WR, RB, QB – I apologize in advance if that somehow offends the two of you.



     
  18. 4packgirl

    4packgirl Cheesehead

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    the sarcasm on here is just ridiculous - when are we getting that ignore button, ryan???? :roll: :wink:

    to stay on topic...awww sh1t - i forgot what the topic was!!
     
  19. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    Now y'all did it! Made 4packgirl cuss!

    I, for one, do not feel we had a good defense in '05. Certainly not one that would get us to, or, help us win playoff games.

    We didn't have the players,or, the playmakers for that to happen.

    Forget the ranking. That is a stat that doesn't show the whole picure. We were lousy against the run.By virtue of playing in the North(I mean four games against the Bears and Lions, c'mon) and against many backup QB's who weren't going to throw the ball all over the place(backups don't do that) our pass "D was statistically blessed.

    Does anyone think that if we had caught all the breaks last year and happened to win all the close ones that our pass "D" would have held up in the playoffs? I hope not.

    Our pass rush was often poor not helped by the fact we couldn't add much pressure because our DB's(Harris only) were not good enough to hang if we did send extra guys.

    Our nickel was not good and our OLB's were not up to the task of staying with TE's and RB's and did not do a good job at all against the run.

    So to stay on point I think we have come miles from last year in building a real defense that can be counted on in big game situations.

    Last years "D" was no where near "playoff" quality. This years is, so, yes it went from ???? to position of strength in my opinion.
     
  20. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    The facts were stated in my last post. Do I think it's possible for Carroll to be a good player in this league. Yes, I do. I never disputed that.

    I guess the fact that I said Bruce I hope your right means. I can't stand Carroll either and I have an obsessive hatred towards... :roll:

    Like you stated

    That's blind loyalty.. He clearly has a poor attitude thus far. Perhaps he's changed.. I doubt it. Once again he was arrested and did get into fights. We don’t know who started it and we won't know but the FACT remain those things did occur. His cocky attitude shows on the field as well. Going to camp and saying he wants to learn doesn’t give a player a good attitude. It’s a start in the right direction though, I’ll say that.

    As stated the competition was Joey Thomas, Mike Hawkins and Jason Horton. Carroll was the 2nd most experienced CB on the roster. The competition just wasn't there last year.

    As for the stat do you take an account zone coverage’s, double teams, mis communications.

    That stat helps support your argument that Carroll isn't a lost cause but the stat doesn't show talent and in talent the CB's you listed that Carroll did better than are all better players than Carroll at this point in their careers. Some were young and some were vets.

    Here’s a stat. Carroll is one of the most penalized DB’s in the last two years.

    I think Carroll is going to be a great nickel back for us or someone else perhaps in the future but I don't think he'll ever amount to being a solid starter based on what I saw in the NFL(so far) and in College.
     
  21. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    As stated the competition was Joey Thomas, Mike Hawkins and Jason Horton. Carroll was the 2nd most experienced CB on the roster. The competition just wasn't there last year.

    As for the stat do you take an account zone coverage’s, double teams, mis communications.

    That stat helps support your argument that Carroll isn't a lost cause but the stat doesn't show talent and in talent the CB's you listed that Carroll did better than are all better players than Carroll at this point in their careers. Some were young and some were vets.

    Here’s a stat. Carroll is one of the most penalized DB’s in the last two years.

    I think Carroll is going to be a great nickel back for us or someone else perhaps in the future but I don't think he'll ever amount to being a solid starter based on what I saw in the NFL(so far) and in College.[/quote:3qdmraf0]

    and Bruce still won't tell me how that stat is acquired. I know Stats Inc(or whatever they are) are a reputable company, but how do they get this stat The stat is flawed. How do I know? because Al Harris is worse than Ahmad Carroll according to it.

    I'm done with this though, I wanted to know how that stat was acquired(am I asking for something outrageous here? Just tell me how they get the stat), and bruce doesn't know, so...whatever. But go ahead and believe the stat. lol.
     
  22. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    and Bruce still won't tell me how that stat is acquired. I know Stats Inc(or whatever they are) are a reputable company, but how do they get this stat The stat is flawed. How do I know? because Al Harris is worse than Ahmad Carroll according to it.

    I'm done with this though, I wanted to know how that stat was acquired(am I asking for something outrageous here? Just tell me how they get the stat), and bruce doesn't know, so...whatever. But go ahead and believe the stat. lol.[/quote:1jforn00]

    Trom:

    What is it you don't get???

    It is acquired by being a member of the media and having access. Unless you can afford to buy it independently (I can but don't need to) you can not get it.

    If you mean what factor/stats are used to do this rating, I have already given you that. But here goes again:

    You take the number of times an offense attempts to target a particular player, then you factor it against the number of times they are successful, you than factor in the average gain when a pass is completed against that player.

    NO WHERE does it claim that Carroll is better than Harris! It simply says that Carroll had a lower target and burn rate than Harris -- who by the way had a sub par 2nd half of the season (by Al Harris standards).

    You say you are done, then come back with a nonsense assertion that is not based in fact. I have explained it to you in the forum and I PM you as per your request. I understand the STAT and what it is and what it is not. Just because you do NOT does not mean every one is as ignorant as you.

    BTW I intentionally used the word ignorant (not knowing) Vs stupid (not being capable of knowing)

    If you want to be done, be done. If you want to ask a question, ask a question.

    But I don't see how this thread which provides a reasonably accurate assessment of the Packers secondary and was produced by me VS just printing someone else's stuff got your undies in such a bunch. :?:
     
  23. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    oh, YOU know how it works, even though you say you can't afford to find out how it works, but you KNOW how it works. That's amazing. So you also KNOW if it does\doesn't include zone defenses?

    Please, educate me. Apparently I am very ignorant because you know more about a stat you claim you can't afford to get the specifics on. amazing! Please teach me.
     
  24. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    Trom: I am not trying to pick on you -- though you make it quite easy if I so desired. You either misreading or are intentionally misrepresenting what I wrote to you.

    First, I never said I cannot afford to by it -- I can. I said I do not need to as I already have access.

    Of course it includes zone defenses -- but only if the offense attacks a specific zone that a player is responsible for.

    What exactly is your point?

    I have tried to help you, I have tried to answer your questions -- what more is it you are seeking? If it is attention, I suppose you are succeeding.

    Why do you keep obsessing about one very small part of a post I wrote? And is it so hard to take the time to read my responses to you before "going off" in false directions.

    I seriously am not trying to be mean or pick on you. I really don't get what is going on here. I also do not want you to ruin what I think is a solid contributing thread that I put some work and effort in to sharing. Granted, it is put together as an outline for a more in depth article I will be writing, but isn't that what people come to a forum to do -- discuss and analyze football?
     
  25. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    oh, of course it does! how silly of me. how dare I ask. Of course it does!

    As far as anything else to what goes in to that stat, its very hush-hush, but OF COURSE it does include zone defense!

    we get it, you have access to it. Forgive me for wanting to know how they get a stupid stat where Carroll is ahead of Harris. Curiosity doesn't equel ignorance, btw. Keep your personal jabs to yourself.
     

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