Fire Matt LaFleur

[tynimiller]

LMAO....so many people that are anti-MLF that have screamed about him being too damn conservative now we hear about how dumb it was to throw that ball to Christian (who had two steps on Surtain and was UNDERTHROWN)....

Oh crap...forgot to bold everthing so it is means more...sorry - will do better next time.

 

[Sanguine camper]

And he can hardly be judged fairly in a season with so many big injuries - Kraft, Reed, Jenkins, Watson (twice), Parsons, Wyatt. All on IR at some point.

Now injuries are never an excuse. But when it comes to evaluating a coach - well I'll say that 9-4-1 is a pretty good record. Now we'll see what MLF is made of as he tries to coach his guys to greatness in the next month. That's a real test. That starts with a big W in Chicago Saturday night.

But as for his future with the Packers, now isn't the time to call that, either way.

Firing a coach during the season rarely makes sense. In a way MLF now gets a free pass because of all the injuries. If they fail to make the playoffs or even make it and are one and done, who can blame MLF? It's the injuries.

I also don't think a coach should be fully blameless for injuries. Maybe their training regimen is poor which is predisposing players to injury? One can't make a reasonable case that the training regimen has nothing to do with how well players hold up to the rigors of the sport.

For the Packers, it's their mostly their star players that go down to season ending injuries. Are they getting worn down and not taking care of their bodies properly? I don't have the answer but if I'm Gute, I'd be turning over every rock to find out.

 

[longtimefan]

LMAO....so many people that are anti-MLF that have screamed about him being too damn conservative now we hear about how dumb it was to throw that ball to Christian (who had two steps on Surtain and was UNDERTHROWN)....

Oh crap...forgot to bold everthing so it is means more...sorry - will do better next time.

Exactly

He is too conservative- go for the jugular

Wait !!! no not now idiot !!

 

[Magooch]

A hypothetical:

Let's say you can take your pick of any of head coach in the league right now, no strings attached.
How many coaches (and who) would you replace LaFleur with?

Alternatively: how many teams around the league would be willing to ditch their current head coach and replace them with LaFleur?

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Wait what...his last couple have been rippers and 2024 hit well before any rookie class should beyond that like one rare immediate day in and day out starter that contributes not just stays afloat...

Edgerrin Cooper, Evan Williams and Javon Bullard all essentially Day 1 obvious blessings to have and by end of year 1 were rocking.

You named three players. Yes, he's had some hits but this team is very much lacking in elite players.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

So MLF gets credit for the regular season win/loss record, and Gute does not get credit for assembling the rosters that achieved that win/loss record.

Gute gets credit for drafting a great QB and putting together a solid roster but please, give me the list of elite players that Gute has drafted.

 

[OldSchool101]

MLF needs to be fired , he has a winning percent of wins but cant never win the big one because he gets out coached all the time , they got out coached by Broncos HC yesterday, they were winning 23 to 14 and MLF had no business calling a long pass instead of controlling the ball with short passes but instead the momentum shifted after that play , injured the one of the best player we have, and we lost
The Packers will never win a SB with MLF as HC , he has been the Packers coach about 7 yrs and always chokes in big games , he has now great talent , as before but he cant win the big one , they will not get far this season with MLF in charge, hopefully the new guy in charge at Green Bay(Ed Policy)will not extend his contract and let him go , MLF is a good offensive coordinator , not a HC .
I love the Packers , i been a Packer fan all my life 62 yrs of it , the truth hurts, lets bring in a coach that will not choke when it gets tough , MLF is not the guy and the talent is been wasted with this guy

I disagree. Jordan was under pressure on that specific play and still the ball was in that contested area. If he’s able to put 1 more yard on it that’s a TD and a 30-14 lead. It’s funny how nobody complains when a bomb is successful, but trying to put the dagger in an opponent that’s on a 10 game win streak becomes a hindrance. Frankly I loved the aggressive approach this was a very hot performing team in their house.

Now I’m not suggesting that MLF hasn’t had some bad moments across Jordan’s tenure in particular. However we’ve got to put things in perspective. Matt has still made the playoffs 2/2 times and is poised to do so again. Matt doesn’t control injury outcomes.

I still think GB adds at minimum 1 game to their Win total. Even at 10-6-1 they likely qualify for postseason. Both 2023 and 2024 were respectable finishes. Both opponents went on to play in a Super Bowl. We probably should’ve beat SF if not for a Teams mishap. Then Teams fumbled on the opening Kickoff last year! Just let the ball bounce! Don’t give an opponent any help like that it completely destroyed a low scoring contest with a bonus TD to start.

Every person in life has a bad day occasionally. Here Jordan actually played pretty good 1/2 against an Elite D in a loud stadium. I truly believe between injuries and the elevation wearing out our players and maybe some crowd noise (5? False starts??) it just was the perfect storm. Yet still FB had multiple chances to tie fighting all that. Also Nix had some really incredibly accurate throws and many were in double coverage where a small mistake is a turnover. Truthfully Nix was fortunate not to log at least 1-2 INT. I saw a couple throws that were turnover worthy GB just didn’t finish. I think sometimes we expect other good teams to just fold up. Correct me but Denver was playing to Win also and their D was the best we’ve faced all year. We led for nearly 3 qtrs and lost by 1 score. How you lose is a key to a teams makeup. GB can still rally and get some players back before postseason. Personally I think they still have the talent without Micah to cause some headaches.

 

[tynimiller]

You named three players. Yes, he's had some hits but this team is very much lacking in elite players.

LOL, you really want me to circle back through them all I can? I was merely pointing to recently just the sophomore class has been phenomenal way faster than should ever be expected of draft classes.

I've shared Gutes' entire draft history in other threads - if you search the search function you'll likely find them. Even the biggest critiques of Gute cannot look over his draft history and claim he is an average or below average or bad drafting GM. At worst he is above average.

 

[tynimiller]

Gute gets credit for drafting a great QB and putting together a solid roster but please, give me the list of elite players that Gute has drafted.

Provide me a clear definition of what you mean by Elite first, because that IMO and how I view Elite would cause nearly every GM to be labeled autrocious failures at drafting - as my definition Elite players are rarer than a six pack happening for me while on a McDonalds diet and no exercise...

 

[OldSchool101]

LOL, you really want me to circle back through them all I can? I was merely pointing to recently just the sophomore class has been phenomenal way faster than should ever be expected of draft classes.

I've shared Gutes' entire draft history in other threads - if you search the search function you'll likely find them. Even the biggest critiques of Gute cannot look over his draft history and claim he is an average or below average or bad drafting GM. At worst he is above average.

Jordan Love at #26 overall? That’s a really high graded pick to find a franchise QB.
A grades at QB count triple imo.

Now 2025 has been relatively “off” without too much help in FA or the Draft. That said the overall makeup of this Roster is Playoff caliber. That’s all that needs to be said as it justifies the means. GB is easily in the top 10 best Rosters in the NFL even without Micah.

Me thinks select fans take out their disappointment on whoever they can point the finger at. Yet life throws obstacles at us. We can choose to give up and be thankless? Or we can choose to pull up our bootstraps and be thankful for our God given talent and rally together as a 53 member team. Nobody gives a crap how you get to the top of the Mountain. I don’t care if you crawl or scrape or break bones getting there. If you get your photo at the top all that gets forgotten. I’d rather overcome in this life than never have a struggle and everything be handed to me. I’ll 100% assure if you are a glass half empty group that if you’re expecting no challenges on the way to the top you are going to suffer serious disappointment not just in here, but everywhere in life. Giving up ain’t an option. All that matters is how you finish in this life and sports is just a reflection of life struggles.

 

[milani]

Thanks for those details gopkrs. And even with a rusher coming hard, Love threw that ball 52 yards. That's just incredible. But the Bronco rush had been doing that all night. Maybe it would have been better to grind it out, they had been very successful up to that point.

But one reason I wanted MM fired was his "playing not to lose" play calling. It cost the Packers a trip back to the SB in the awful 2014 NFCCG loss to the Hags.

As MLF has said, better to go down swinging. And I agree. This time the price was very high.

But when you have a 9 point lead after a defensive stop with good field position and you are facing the top D in the NFL in the 3rd quarter you might be thinking more down and distance. Rest your D, move the chains, flip the field, and use some clock. Going for the jugular against the Jets or Raiders might be worth it. But vs. the Broncos the consequences could be disastrous. And they were.

 

[adambr2]

Gute gets credit for drafting a great QB and putting together a solid roster but please, give me the list of elite players that Gute has drafted.

Depending on your definition, I would say that Zach Tom is an elite player at his position and Tucker Kraft is on his way to becoming one. I also agree that the depth of the roster is better than the high end talent, but it’s not always the easiest thing to do when you’re in the playoffs almost every year and not picking in the top half of the 1st.

Secondly, why is the bar “elite players” and not a “solid roster”?

Maxx Crosby and Myles Garrett are elite players. Where are those organizations?

I just think it’s silly to sing the praises of MLF but criticize Gute when both are responsible for the overall results, just in different roles.

 

[Poppa San]

Gute gets credit for drafting a great QB and putting together a solid roster but please, give me the list of elite players that Gute has drafted.

Define elite. How many teams draft a Micah Parsons level of talent every year? I'd consider very good to be having a realistic chance to be a starter on 25 or more other teams in the league and elite to be a sure fire starter. Of the latter I'd look at pre-injured Watson, Jenkins, Tom, and Wyatt, previous years' Gary, Williams, Love, maybe Cooper.

the newpaper story

Remind me again, what's a newspaper?

 

[Magooch]

Depending on your definition, I would say that Zach Tom is an elite player at his position and Tucker Kraft is on his way to becoming one. I also agree that the depth of the roster is better than the high end talent, but it’s not always the easiest thing to do when you’re in the playoffs almost every year and not picking in the top half of the 1st.

Secondly, why is the bar “elite players” and not a “solid roster”?

Maxx Crosby and Myles Garrett are elite players. Where are those organizations?

I just think it’s silly to sing the praises of MLF but criticize Gute when both are responsible for the overall results, just in different roles.

For me the bottom line is that it has to be one or the other. As I mentioned above, we're pushing 8 years with Gute and 7 years with LaFleur and we have 3 playoff wins between the two of them...and simply stated I don't think anyone should be content with seeing that as "up to standard" for this organization.

And so with that in mind, where does the blame fall?

If Gute has succeeded in acquiring/developing elite players and has put together a quality roster (top-10, for instance), then shouldn't the coach be held accountable for the lack of postseason success with this roster/players?

If LaFleur is a great coach who is maximizing the talent at his disposal, managing crucial game situations properly, playing to his players' strengths...but just doesn't have the roster-quality, then shouldn't the GM be held accountable for not putting together a roster that can compete with other top teams in the postseason?

I don't know where exactly the blame lies or how much it should be "split" but I'm just not willing to sit here and say "Gute is one of the best GMs in the league and LaFleur is one of the best coaches in the league" while looking at a 3-5 playoff record in the last 8 years and concluding it's just because we're unlucky or something.

It's like I was saying earlier, too. If not now, when? I suspect our structure is solid enough that we will always be "dangerous" or "competitive". Is that good enough? Let's say we give both Gute and LaFleur new contracts. Are we content with making the playoffs most years and winning a playoff game every other year for the next 4, 5 years? Is the bar for success to simply make the postseason and then hope you get hot, get lucky, have the ball bounce your way and hope for the best?

It makes me think, perhaps that's a better way of questioning it...if you don't want to move on from Gute and/or LaFleur right now and would advocate for giving either of them a new long-term contract, what's the bar for success for their new contract? What would your expectations be for the immediate future?

(Don't get me wrong. This isn't me saying we should 100% fire both of them. I am also of the mind that you need to have a really solid plan in place before making either one of those moves. But I do think these are fair things to ask)

 

[milani]

I disagree. Jordan was under pressure on that specific play and still the ball was in that contested area. If he’s able to put 1 more yard on it that’s a TD and a 30-14 lead. It’s funny how nobody complains when a bomb is successful, but trying to put the dagger in an opponent that’s on a 10 game win streak becomes a hindrance. Frankly I loved the aggressive approach this was a very hot performing team in their house.

Now I’m not suggesting that MLF hasn’t had some bad moments across Jordan’s tenure in particular. However we’ve got to put things in perspective. Matt has still made the playoffs 2/2 times and is poised to do so again. Matt doesn’t control injury outcomes.

I still think GB adds at minimum 1 game to their Win total. Even at 10-6-1 they likely qualify for postseason. Both 2023 and 2024 were respectable finishes. Both opponents went on to play in a Super Bowl. We probably should’ve beat SF if not for a Teams mishap. Then Teams fumbled on the opening Kickoff last year! Just let the ball bounce! Don’t give an opponent any help like that it completely destroyed a low scoring contest with a bonus TD to start.

Every person in life has a bad day occasionally. Here Jordan actually played pretty good 1/2 against an Elite D in a loud stadium. I truly believe between injuries and the elevation wearing out our players and maybe some crowd noise (5? False starts??) it just was the perfect storm. Yet still FB had multiple chances to tie fighting all that. Also Nix had some really incredibly accurate throws and many were in double coverage where a small mistake is a turnover. Truthfully Nix was fortunate not to log at least 1-2 INT. I saw a couple throws that were turnover worthy GB just didn’t finish. I think sometimes we expect other good teams to just fold up. Correct me but Denver was playing to Win also and their D was the best we’ve faced all year. We led for nearly 3 qtrs and lost by 1 score. How you lose is a key to a teams makeup. GB can still rally and get some players back before postseason. Personally I think they still have the talent without Micah to cause some headaches.

It was the wrong call at the wrong time against the wrong team. It may have worked, may have been incomplete, or maybe overthrown and Watson does not get hurt. % football is needed here. It was 1st down and Denver was thinking we run the ball. Having some success against great defenses does not mean it will happen continually. Our D just made a stop. Try keeping them off the field for a while.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

LOL, you really want me to circle back through them all I can? I was merely pointing to recently just the sophomore class has been phenomenal way faster than should ever be expected of draft classes.

I've shared Gutes' entire draft history in other threads - if you search the search function you'll likely find them. Even the biggest critiques of Gute cannot look over his draft history and claim he is an average or below average or bad drafting GM. At worst he is above average.

No, he’s above average in the latter rounds while being bad in the first round. Aside from opinions on Gute, I’m sorry i brought him up. My main point was that anybody honestly thinking of firing MLF needs to look realistically at what they expect of head coaches.

 

[tynimiller]

No, he’s above average in the latter rounds while being bad in the first round. Aside from opinions on Gute, I’m sorry i brought him up. My main point was that anybody honestly thinking of firing MLF needs to look realistically at what they expect of head coaches.

Nah it's always good for folks to bring up their thoughts man - even if I differ slightly or strongly it is what makes the forums enjoyable.

 

[Packers4ever]

Anybody that doesn't recognize that MLF is one of the best coaches in the NFL is just being willfully ignorant at this point. MLF's job should absolutely be secure while Gute needs to be looked at very closely by Ed Policy.

MLF may be one of the best coaches but he will never win a super bowl , in big games he gets out coached by better coaches , like it happened with Denver last weekend
after 7 seasons he should at least won a super bowl , he had his fair of talented teams but cant win the big one
His time is up and hope Policy does not extend Gute and MLF contracts, MLF can be a great offensive coordinator but he is not a great HC

 

[red4tribe]

Gute gets credit for drafting a great QB and putting together a solid roster but please, give me the list of elite players that Gute has drafted.

I’ve thought about this before. It’s not a perfect metric, but here are all the pro bowlers Gute has drafted in his eight drafts at the helm:

Jaire Alexander (2x)
Rashan Gary (1x)
Elgton Jenkins (2x)

That’s it. I’m guessing Love and maybe Williams will get the nod this year, so that would increase it to five. I don’t know how this compares to other GMs, but on the surface at least, it doesn’t seem like many. The 2020 and 2021 drafts in particular were, with the huge exception of Love, mostly swings and misses.

That being said I probably would not fire Gute or MLF. I think there’s too much risk involved, and Love has developed very well with MLF, for which he certainly deserves a great deal of credit.

 

[tynimiller]

I’ve thought about this before. It’s not a perfect metric, but here are all the pro bowlers Gute has drafted in his eight drafts at the helm:

Jaire Alexander (2x)
Rashan Gary (1x)
Elgton Jenkins (2x)

That’s it. I’m guessing Love and maybe Williams will get the nod this year, so that would increase it to five. I don’t know how this compares to other GMs, but on the surface at least, it doesn’t seem like many. The 2020 and 2021 drafts in particular were, with the huge exception of Love, mostly swings and misses.

That being said I probably would not fire Gute or MLF. I think there’s too much risk involved, and Love has developed very well with MLF, for which he certainly deserves a great deal of credit.

Couple things and don't take this on you just a response prompted by thoughts reading through your post....but anyone that cites Pro Bowlers as if it has hardly any weight of relevancy in discussing a team build makes me almost stop listening to anything further they say. The Pro Bowl is a joke...the fact uneducated fans actually impact who makes it, eliminates it from any relevancy IMO. It also typically indicates to me that the person is purely a hindsight or reactive judger of things - indicating they've never truly study or researched draft prospect analysis beyond just what the draft ticker says the best available is...because the second you really do dig deeper and study the draft, and follow players careers you begin to see how incredibly hard it is to get perfect, let alone good.

That said I've went down this road before and the irony is the distribution across the league is typically less than a handful per team just by a sheer number....AND pro bowls typically just follow the hot public commodity.

*Sidenote...IF you are going to use Pro Bowlers as a factor in reviewing Gute I don't think you can just look at the draft at all. Gute brought in Josh Jacobs who immediately year one was a pro bowler - same with Xavier McKinney. You cannot overlook that. Zadarius Smith did this too...may be others.

Also have to consider the better or higher honor IMO and to many - that of an All Pro honor. Zach Tom made All Pro in 2024 as did Xavier.

Funny thing is though if you look at the Pro Bowl lists or even the All Pro....you'll see how using it as a metric of real value for judging a GM becomes IMO irrational due to the amount of guys that will make it from bad or mediocre teams I mean shoot the Jets in 2023 had three All Pro and 3 pro bowlers. Cleveland in 2023 had SEVEN pro bowlers....four more than their win total of three games that entire season.

Of course a scouting department and a GM would love to only get All Pro or Pro Bowl level guys (because even if Pro Bowl nods are watered down - they typically don't suck)...but fact is there are only a limited number of each of those spots each year across 32 teams with over 50 guys per. Freaking dynamite guys are going to get snubbed and honestly quite a few a year. Take Jared Verse in 2024 as an example. Dude created the fourth most pressures in the entire league (PFF), his pass rush win rate was incredible BUT only got 6 sacks so it seems the ignorance of voters ignored the fact he produced more QB hurries than Myles Garrett, Chris Jones, Trey Hendrickson and Chase Young. Doesn't diminish the fact Verse was a DYNAMITE pick...or Yaya Diaby drafted in the third in 2023 who has been dynamite but never received awards - doesn't diminish the pick of him at all.

Just some thoughts I had...

 

[Heyjoe4]

The NFL is a funny thing. Make no mistake well initially take a step backwards. Yet these are the type of games you think you’ll lose and then end up showing up. Still lots of talent on this GB roster. This is where having some decent depth at TE, WR, Edge, Safety etc. can help when guys go down.

Personally I have us as a +2 point underdog just after the injuries and short week and playing in Chicago. A Win this week would be super huge because we’d elevate back into 1st place in the North with just 2 games remaining. Vikings and Baltimore are very up n down right now. However we get a pair of home games also.

Also a Packer Win and a Detroit loss would be very damaging as Detroit would be officially out of the North race. Also Chicago has trio of tougher games remaining. A loss to us? could put that last game as a win or out of playoffs.
Vs Packers
At 49ers
Vs Detroit

It's pretty wild how playoff seeding can vary from week to week. The Packers have been (roughly) exchanging the #2 seed and the #7 seed with the Bears.

A W Saturday night will be satisfying on a number of levels. It will show resilience in the face of damaging, long-term injuries. It will make it easier to hold onto the North, given the Bears remaining games v the Niners and Lions.

I think it was gopkrs or milani who wrote that the offense will need to carry the load now, and I agree. It would be huge to get Watson back. He has a significant impact on how opposing CBs and Ss play. But even without him, - Love, Reed, Doubs, Golden and Wicks (and the TEs, who have all played well) have enough talent to win any game. The OL is a crap shoot from week to week, unfortunately.

Losing Parsons is crushing. It does give Cooper a chance to fill the role of lead rusher. We know he can do it. Engabare has been playing v well. I don't really know what has happened to Gary, if anything. The CBs suck, but McKinney and Williams are an excellent at S.

No need to give up! Go into Chicago and get a statement win - and do it for all the guys who are out, oh and for us fans.

 

[Sanguine camper]

I’ve thought about this before. It’s not a perfect metric, but here are all the pro bowlers Gute has drafted in his eight drafts at the helm:

Jaire Alexander (2x)
Rashan Gary (1x)
Elgton Jenkins (2x)

That’s it. I’m guessing Love and maybe Williams will get the nod this year, so that would increase it to five. I don’t know how this compares to other GMs, but on the surface at least, it doesn’t seem like many. The 2020 and 2021 drafts in particular were, with the huge exception of Love, mostly swings and misses.

That being said I probably would not fire Gute or MLF. I think there’s too much risk involved, and Love has developed very well with MLF, for which he certainly deserves a great deal of credit.

The topic is super important in judging the performance of a GM. The bar is set high. There are 22 starters and 2 kickers. It's reasonable to assume the average starter goes 6 years so a GM needs to find 4 starters per year on average.

If you take a look at most Super Bowl winning teams, they have 6-8 pro bowlers/all pro with 1-3 HOF players of those 6-8 elite players.

In other words, if you want to win a Super Bowl, out of those 4 starters per year, one needs to be a pro bowler and every 2-5 years, the GM needs to land a HOF caliber player.

Gute has drafted 3 pro Bowl/all pro players but also acquired 2 more in trades or free agency- Parsons and Xavier. That's 5 elite players in 8 years.

I also think Kraft belongs on thst list and Cooper has the talent but unfortunately has regressed this year. Zach Tom will make a pro bowl soon if not this year.

Gute has come close the hitting the high bar that's set. 6 elite players in 8 years with 2 more more in Tom and Cooper with elite potential.

Gute has his flaws but by that fair evaluation has come very close to be a GM capable of putting together a Super Bowl roster.

Yet, the Packers have been largely embarrassing in the playoffs. They come up short in big games!

I would say it's fair to say that MLF has underperformed and let Gute down.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Couple things and don't take this on you just a response prompted by thoughts reading through your post....but anyone that cites Pro Bowlers as if it has hardly any weight of relevancy in discussing a team build makes me almost stop listening to anything further they say. The Pro Bowl is a joke...the fact uneducated fans actually impact who makes it, eliminates it from any relevancy IMO. It also typically indicates to me that the person is purely a hindsight or reactive judger of things - indicating they've never truly study or researched draft prospect analysis beyond just what the draft ticker says the best available is...because the second you really do dig deeper and study the draft, and follow players careers you begin to see how incredibly hard it is to get perfect, let alone good.

That said I've went down this road before and the irony is the distribution across the league is typically less than a handful per team just by a sheer number....AND pro bowls typically just follow the hot public commodity.

*Sidenote...IF you are going to use Pro Bowlers as a factor in reviewing Gute I don't think you can just look at the draft at all. Gute brought in Josh Jacobs who immediately year one was a pro bowler - same with Xavier McKinney. You cannot overlook that. Zadarius Smith did this too...may be others.

Also have to consider the better or higher honor IMO and to many - that of an All Pro honor. Zach Tom made All Pro in 2024 as did Xavier.

Funny thing is though if you look at the Pro Bowl lists or even the All Pro....you'll see how using it as a metric of real value for judging a GM becomes IMO irrational due to the amount of guys that will make it from bad or mediocre teams I mean shoot the Jets in 2023 had three All Pro and 3 pro bowlers. Cleveland in 2023 had SEVEN pro bowlers....four more than their win total of three games that entire season.

Of course a scouting department and a GM would love to only get All Pro or Pro Bowl level guys (because even if Pro Bowl nods are watered down - they typically don't suck)...but fact is there are only a limited number of each of those spots each year across 32 teams with over 50 guys per. Freaking dynamite guys are going to get snubbed and honestly quite a few a year. Take Jared Verse in 2024 as an example. Dude created the fourth most pressures in the entire league (PFF), his pass rush win rate was incredible BUT only got 6 sacks so it seems the ignorance of voters ignored the fact he produced more QB hurries than Myles Garrett, Chris Jones, Trey Hendrickson and Chase Young. Doesn't diminish the fact Verse was a DYNAMITE pick...or Yaya Diaby drafted in the third in 2023 who has been dynamite but never received awards - doesn't diminish the pick of him at all.

Just some thoughts I had...

Yeah there's the Pro Bowl - a popularity contest - and then there's All Pro. I'll take the All Pro guys. I don't pay attention to the Pro Bowlers. There are a lot of good players who make the PB. It's the selection process that's flawed.

I think McKinney was 1st team All Pro last season. I think Nixon made it one year as a kick returner????? And I think Parsons was selected All Pro twice in four years. Anyway, it's a legit acknowledgment of performance to make All Pro.

 

[Heyjoe4]

The topic is super important in judging the performance of a GM. The bar is set high. There are 22 starters and 2 kickers. It's reasonable to assume the average starter goes 6 years so a GM needs to find 4 starters per year on average.

If you take a look at most Super Bowl winning teams, they have 6-8 pro bowlers/all pro with 1-3 HOF players of those 6-8 elite players.

In other words, if you want to win a Super Bowl, out of those 4 starters per year, one needs to be a pro bowler and every 2-5 years, the GM needs to land a HOF caliber player.

Gute has drafted 3 pro Bowl/all pro players but also acquired 2 more in trades or free agency- Parsons and Xavier. That's 5 elite players in 8 years.

I also think Kraft belongs on thst list and Cooper has the talent but unfortunately has regressed this year. Zach Tom will make a pro bowl soon if not this year.

Gute has come close the hitting the high bar that's set. 6 elite players in 8 years with 2 more more in Tom and Cooper with elite potential.

Gute has his flaws but by that fair evaluation has come very close to be a GM capable of putting together a Super Bowl roster.

Yet, the Packers have been largely embarrassing in the playoffs. They come up short in big games!

I would say it's fair to say that MLF has underperformed and let Gute down.

I agree with what Ty wrote about the Pro Bowl. I prefer All Pro as a better measure of a player's talent and impact.

But this was all referenced wrt Gluten's drafting/FA selections. Other than this year - with Banks and Hobbs setting up to be busts, Gluten has done a great job in acquiring great players, FA and the draft. Just my opinion.

As for MLF underperforming after the talent he's been given by Gluten, that's harder for me to accept. Ty pointed this out after the loss to Cleveland (I think) - it's hard to win a game in the NFL regardless of the opponent. It gets exponentially harder from there to win a SB.

Now MLF is by no means among the top 5 coaches in the NFL. I do give him credit for managing through the Rodgers/Love transition, and to getting more aggressive in his play calling. It's also correct that Gluten has given him a lot of very talented players during MLF's tenure in GB.

MLF can certainly improve. A big test arrives his Saturday night. Can he motivate his guys to go out and get a W, in spite of a ton of demoralizing injuries? That really is a big test, for both MLF and his coaches/players.

I have a feeling he will be up to the moment.

 

[tynimiller]

Now MLF is by no means among the top 5 coaches in the NFL. I do give him credit for managing through the Rodgers/Love transition, and to getting more aggressive in his play calling. It's also correct that Gluten has given him a lot of very talented players during MLF's tenure in GB.

This and many other comments recently made me think where would MLF fall really in the NFL...I'd personally not rank but put coaches in tiers:


Tier 1 Elite
Reid
McVay
John Harbaugh
Shanahan

Tier 2 Freaking Good
Campbell
Johnson* (honestly too early to cement opinion but gut says this tier)
Lafluer
Tomlin
O'Connell
Payton
McDermott

Tier 3 Good
Stefanski
Sirianni
Jim Harbaugh
Vrabel
Ryans
Carroll

All the rest...which the best of the rest I'd say is either Zac Taylor or Steichen honestly.