Fire Matt LaFleur

[Heyjoe4]

I think any talk of whacking MLF or Gluten, which is only being discussed because of the disasters yesterday, are knee jerk reactions. The Athletic ran a similar article today.

I'm going to try and leave yesterday where it belongs, in the past. I'm also going to let this season play out before commenting further on this stuff. GB will play the hand that has been dealt.

Most important, I'm looking for a big win in Chicago Saturday night.

 

[tynimiller]

Isn't that what many are saying here? If he replaced one of those 15, he'd pretty much, by definition, be in the bottom half.

Not at all, issue you have you'll obviously have some organizations that are either young in their time with a HC that is arguably ascending or they think in their first few years might become something special that they hold serve but doesn't mean MLF isn't better or on par.

 

[adambr2]

I think any talk of whacking MLF or Gluten, which is only being discussed because of the disasters yesterday, are knee jerk reactions. The Athletic ran a similar article today.

I'm going to try and leave yesterday where it belongs, in the past. I'm also going to let this season play out before commenting further on this stuff. GB will play the hand that has been dealt.

Most important, I'm looking for a big win in Chicago Saturday night.

Gluten?

 

[milani]

MLF has had 7 seasons to compete for a championship. His teams have been largely embarrassing in the playoffs.

Most successful coaches have won or at least gone to the Super Bowl by year 7. If the goal is to win a championship, then MLF isn't getting the job done. If the goal is to be a little bit better than average, then yeah, he's your man.

This topic comes up periodically. What is success in the NFL? I take my guidance from Vince Limbardi. He said the goal of every season Is to win a championship.

I think MLF is a really good offensive coordinator but a rather poor head coach.

Right now we can only hope to get INTO the postseason with what we have left.

 

[milani]

If anyone like me was curious how true this was here the most recent SB winning HCs first SB win and what year that was:

2025 - Sirianni - 4th year as HC (less than)
2021 - Sean McVay - it was his 5th year as HC (less than)
2020 - Arians - it was his 8th year as HC (more than)
2019 - Reid - it was his 21st year as HC (more than)
2017 - Pederson - it was his 2nd year as HC(less than)
2015 - Kubiak - it was his 9th year as HC(more than)
2013 - Carroll - it was his 8th year as HC, but massive span 1999 to 2010 he was USC HC(more than)
2012 - Harbaugh - it was his 5th year as HC(less than)
2010 - McCarthy - it was his 5th year as HC(less than)
2009 - Payton - it was his 4th year as HC(less than)
2008 - Tomlin - it was his 2nd year as HC(less than)
2007 - Coughlin - it was his 12th year as HC(more than)
2006 - Dungy - it was his 11th year as HC(more than)
2005 - Cowher - it was his 14th year as HC(more than)
2002 - Gruden - it was his 5th year as HC(less than)
2001 - Belichick - it was his 7th year as HC (BUT he had a five year gap in there of not being a HC)
2000 - Billick - it was his 2nd year as HC(less than)
1999 - Vermeil - it was his 10th year as HC (82' to 97' break as being a HC also)(more than)
1997 - Shanahan - it was his 5th year as HC(less than)
1996 - Homlgren - it was his 5th year as HC(less than)
1995 - Switzer - it was his 2nd year as HC

Lombardi technically did it in his 8th. But won first NFL Championship in his 3rd.

 

[adambr2]

If anyone like me was curious how true this was here the most recent SB winning HCs first SB win and what year that was:

2025 - Sirianni - 4th year as HC (less than)
2021 - Sean McVay - it was his 5th year as HC (less than)
2020 - Arians - it was his 8th year as HC (more than)
2019 - Reid - it was his 21st year as HC (more than)
2017 - Pederson - it was his 2nd year as HC(less than)
2015 - Kubiak - it was his 9th year as HC(more than)
2013 - Carroll - it was his 8th year as HC, but massive span 1999 to 2010 he was USC HC(more than)
2012 - Harbaugh - it was his 5th year as HC(less than)
2010 - McCarthy - it was his 5th year as HC(less than)
2009 - Payton - it was his 4th year as HC(less than)
2008 - Tomlin - it was his 2nd year as HC(less than)
2007 - Coughlin - it was his 12th year as HC(more than)
2006 - Dungy - it was his 11th year as HC(more than)
2005 - Cowher - it was his 14th year as HC(more than)
2002 - Gruden - it was his 5th year as HC(less than)
2001 - Belichick - it was his 7th year as HC (BUT he had a five year gap in there of not being a HC)
2000 - Billick - it was his 2nd year as HC(less than)
1999 - Vermeil - it was his 10th year as HC (82' to 97' break as being a HC also)(more than)
1997 - Shanahan - it was his 5th year as HC(less than)
1996 - Homlgren - it was his 5th year as HC(less than)
1995 - Switzer - it was his 2nd year as HC

This list would look a lot different if you used getting to a Super Bowl rather than winning it.

Among the others, a lot of those came in a second chance. Very few coaches get more than seven seasons of tenure with a team if they’ve still yet to get to a Super Bowl. How many are in the NFL right now? Probably just McDermott?

 

[milani]

I think any talk of whacking MLF or Gluten, which is only being discussed because of the disasters yesterday, are knee jerk reactions. The Athletic ran a similar article today.

I'm going to try and leave yesterday where it belongs, in the past. I'm also going to let this season play out before commenting further on this stuff. GB will play the hand that has been dealt.

Most important, I'm looking for a big win in Chicago Saturday night.

I think MLF showed some of his shortcomings as a coach in the first three 3 point losses we suffered this season. Those were very winnable and I think the Belichicks and Reids would have won at least one of them.
But as for yesterday, he could not do much. Denver was the better team. And once we lost those 3 starters, it was over.
The one play we regret that should not have been called was the long shot that resulted in not only an INT but another likely season ender for Watson. We just forced a punt, had a 23-14 lead, and we had scored on every drive up until then. True, you need to stretch the defense. But do that against a lesser D. Not the Broncos. What we should have tried to do was matriculate down the field like we had done on 5 possessions. Use clock, rest your D, flip the field, and if you come up short, kick another FG. Against lesser secondaries and weaker pass rushes, then go for the jugular. MLF has to be thinking ball control.

 

[tynimiller]

This list would look a lot different if you used getting to a Super Bowl rather than winning it.

Among the others, a lot of those came in a second chance. Very few coaches get more than seven seasons of tenure with a team if they’ve still yet to get to a Super Bowl. How many are in the NFL right now? Probably just McDermott?

So just first time getting to it? Is that what you mean? Curiosity has me possibly enough to compile last few decades like I did for that one.

I know guys that came to mind for longest tenure without a SB appearance that are active McDermott came to my mind too, Zac Taylor in Cinci is same as MLF or one year shorter, Stefanski in Cleveland for five years I know.

Zac Taylor though made it to a superbowl now as I type that I remember.

Dan Quinn was a coach with SB that came to mind that has had success...he appeared in a SB his second season when with Atlanta....but is 8 seasons in the NFL without a SB as HC

Ron Rivera came to mind so looked him up - 13 seasons as HC with no SB, did appear in a SB his 5th season.
John Fox also came to mind and looked him up too - 16 seasons as HC no SB, but did appear in one his second season with Carolina and then again years later with Denver one year.
Lovie Smith appeared in a SB his third season...never has in 12 seasons as HC won a SB
Ken Whisenhunt 8 seasons as HC, never a SB winner but loser in second season.


Andy Reid is really the most "parralel" to MLF there is or one is hoping there is in that he saw a LOT of success in Philly but constantly would lose playoff games outside of year 6 where he lost in the SB.

 

[Magooch]

Kind of rehashing it at this point, but yeah, in the case of Reid he did indeed make a super bowl in his 6th season, but Philly ended up running out of patience...and it wasn't until he moved to KC that he won his first. But you could argue that Philly, KC, and Reid all ended up better off for it....

 

[adambr2]

I also do understand that constant turnover isn’t good for an organization. You don’t want to be known as the organization with the constantly short leash. One, it’s bad for the culture, it’s hard to build, and it can make it tough to attract the right candidate.

Not that good coaches can’t have immediate success. Look at what Ben Johnson is doing in Chicago.

All that said, I do think things can reach a point where you can have a good coach but a bad fit. Things can get stale, maybe you’re not getting through to the players anymore. Not saying it is our current situation, but it can get there.

I think that was more or less the situation with Mike McCarthy. Does anyone really believe that he was just a bad coach all along? Or do you think things just got stale and it wasn’t a fit anymore?

I look at Mike Tomlin, for instance. Good coach. But, it’s probably time for a new voice and new vision in Pittsburgh.

 

[tynimiller]

Kind of rehashing it at this point, but yeah, in the case of Reid he did indeed make a super bowl in his 6th season, but Philly ended up running out of patience...and it wasn't until he moved to KC that he won his first. But you could argue that Philly, KC, and Reid all ended up better off for it....

One thing I think also has to be considered is the absolute shift and overhaul GB went through and essentially MLF was the guinea pig of a process from Rodgers to Love and escape goat if needed....he's handled what a LOT of other coaches don't actually survive really.

 

[tynimiller]

I also do understand that constant turnover isn’t good for an organization. You don’t want to be known as the organization with the constantly short leash. One, it’s bad for the culture, it’s hard to build, and it can make it tough to attract the right candidate.

Not that good coaches can’t have immediate success. Look at what Ben Johnson is doing in Chicago.

All that said, I do think things can reach a point where you can have a good coach but a bad fit. Things can get stale, maybe you’re not getting through to the players anymore. Not saying it is our current situation, but it can get there.

I think that was more or less the situation with Mike McCarthy. Does anyone really believe that he was just a bad coach all along? Or do you think things just got stale and it wasn’t a fit anymore?

I look at Mike Tomlin, for instance. Good coach. But, it’s probably time for a new voice and new vision in Pittsburgh.

Concur, I think I restarted my timeline once the Love switch was completely in place, which would put us on year 3. I truly suspect MLF and Gute easily and with defense are here a nother year or two before truly potentially hitting that point of "rather gamble and be worse than continue to be really good but enver SB bound"

 

[Heyjoe4]

I think MLF showed some of his shortcomings as a coach in the first three 3 point losses we suffered this season. Those were very winnable and I think the Belichicks and Reids would have won at least one of them.
But as for yesterday, he could not do much. Denver was the better team. And once we lost those 3 starters, it was over.
The one play we regret that should not have been called was the long shot that resulted in not only an INT but another likely season ender for Watson. We just forced a punt, had a 23-14 lead, and we had scored on every drive up until then. True, you need to stretch the defense. But do that against a lesser D. Not the Broncos. What we should have tried to do was matriculate down the field like we had done on 5 possessions. Use clock, rest your D, flip the field, and if you come up short, kick another FG. Against lesser secondaries and weaker pass rushes, then go for the jugular. MLF has to be thinking ball control.

Good points milani.

Either way, it's on to Chicago.

 

[gopkrs]

I see your point. I give MLF credit for going for a kill shot. Probably best not to try that against last season's DPOTY.

But he didn't cause Watson's injury on the play.

Even so, and as you note, they had been moving the ball and scoring against the league's so-called best D. The same D that allowed Washington to out up 32 points.

It can be argued both ways. But it's over. On to Chicago.

On the throw to Watson, Love got slammed hard just as he made the throw. That was why it was a bit short and got picked and Watson banged up. I saw Banks get walked back into Love by the DT on a different play. I don't know whether to blame Banks or the line coach. It was a really basic set up and block. Straight forward. But he just got pushed back.

 

[milani]

I also do understand that constant turnover isn’t good for an organization. You don’t want to be known as the organization with the constantly short leash. One, it’s bad for the culture, it’s hard to build, and it can make it tough to attract the right candidate.

Not that good coaches can’t have immediate success. Look at what Ben Johnson is doing in Chicago.

All that said, I do think things can reach a point where you can have a good coach but a bad fit. Things can get stale, maybe you’re not getting through to the players anymore. Not saying it is our current situation, but it can get there.

I think that was more or less the situation with Mike McCarthy. Does anyone really believe that he was just a bad coach all along? Or do you think things just got stale and it wasn’t a fit anymore?

I look at Mike Tomlin, for instance. Good coach. But, it’s probably time for a new voice and new vision in Pittsburgh.

How many years did Dallas keep Tom Landry? Then there was George Halas the owner coach who was there forever.

 

[Sanguine camper]

I would say that 7 seasons for MLF is more than fair in judging whether he can get a team over the hump and win it all. If the Packers were to move on from him, it's not because they have a culture like Cleveland of canning coaches after 1 or 2 years.

The critical question is who would replace him? While MLF has shown so far that he can't win a championship with good talent, unless there's a better candidate in the wings, canning him just for the sake of change won't work.

I'm not against firing MLF, but you'd better have a better replacement.

 

[Thirteen Below]

I'm not advocating for firing Lafleur, and my reasons are pretty much the same ones Tyni outlines.

But watching that Bears game, there were a number of times I found myself almost wishing we could trade coaches. Especially in the 2nd half. I'm deeply impressed with Johnson.

 

[DoURant]

Gluten?

It's an old story, he had an auto correct of Gute to Gluten a long time ago, so he has had some fun, and gone with it ever since.

 

[Heyjoe4]

On the throw to Watson, Love got slammed hard just as he made the throw. That was why it was a bit short and got picked and Watson banged up. I saw Banks get walked back into Love by the DT on a different play. I don't know whether to blame Banks or the line coach. It was a really basic set up and block. Straight forward. But he just got pushed back.

Thanks for those details gopkrs. And even with a rusher coming hard, Love threw that ball 52 yards. That's just incredible. But the Bronco rush had been doing that all night. Maybe it would have been better to grind it out, they had been very successful up to that point.

But one reason I wanted MM fired was his "playing not to lose" play calling. It cost the Packers a trip back to the SB in the awful 2014 NFCCG loss to the Hags.

As MLF has said, better to go down swinging. And I agree. This time the price was very high.

 

[Heyjoe4]

It's an old story, he had an auto correct of Gute to Gluten a long time ago, so he has had some fun, and gone with it ever since.

Thanks DoURant. It is an old story, as long as Gluten's tenure with the Pack.

I think I came up with it when "Gutenkunst" was first hired. I couldn't pronounce his name, still can't, and I wrote "Gluten". It's just stuck ever since. It's not meant to be degrading of Gluten, just a little fun.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I would say that 7 seasons for MLF is more than fair in judging whether he can get a team over the hump and win it all. If the Packers were to move on from him, it's not because they have a culture like Cleveland of canning coaches after 1 or 2 years.

The critical question is who would replace him? While MLF has shown so far that he can't win a championship with good talent, unless there's a better candidate in the wings, canning him just for the sake of change won't work.

I'm not against firing MLF, but you'd better have a better replacement.

And he can hardly be judged fairly in a season with so many big injuries - Kraft, Reed, Jenkins, Watson (twice), Parsons, Wyatt. All on IR at some point.

Now injuries are never an excuse. But when it comes to evaluating a coach - well I'll say that 9-4-1 is a pretty good record. Now we'll see what MLF is made of as he tries to coach his guys to greatness in the next month. That's a real test. That starts with a big W in Chicago Saturday night.

But as for his future with the Packers, now isn't the time to call that, either way.

 

[adambr2]

Thanks DoURant. It is an old story, as long as Gluten's tenure with the Pack.

I think I came up with it when "Gutenkunst" was first hired. I couldn't pronounce his name, still can't, and I wrote "Gluten". It's just stuck ever since. It's not meant to be degrading of Gluten, just a little fun.

We’ll be going Gluten-free soon enough if we have many more free agent whiffs as bad as Hobbs and Banks.

 

[Heyjoe4]

We’ll be going Gluten-free soon enough if we have many more free agent whiffs as bad as Hobbs and Banks.

LOL! Yeah Hobbs and Banks were huge, and expensive misses. Gluten's FA track record had been very good up to this point.

And the timing couldn't be worse. He paid a LOT for Banks and Hobbs. At the same time, the team will have to deal with rookies looking for a first contract - Watson, Reed in particular - while cap space is tight with Love's contract and Parson's contract.

It doesn't get easier. His #1 priority for the offseason should be to fix the awful CB group. He did it a S with FA McKinney and 3rd round pick Williams.

This team has a SB window (although probably not this season anymore) that is still open. It's a young team with established impact players on O and D. But Gluten is gonna have to work some kind of magic, or we will be Gluten-free as you aptly note.

 

[OldSchool101]

I think any talk of whacking MLF or Gluten, which is only being discussed because of the disasters yesterday, are knee jerk reactions. The Athletic ran a similar article today.

I'm going to try and leave yesterday where it belongs, in the past. I'm also going to let this season play out before commenting further on this stuff. GB will play the hand that has been dealt.

Most important, I'm looking for a big win in Chicago Saturday night.

The NFL is a funny thing. Make no mistake well initially take a step backwards. Yet these are the type of games you think you’ll lose and then end up showing up. Still lots of talent on this GB roster. This is where having some decent depth at TE, WR, Edge, Safety etc. can help when guys go down.

Personally I have us as a +2 point underdog just after the injuries and short week and playing in Chicago. A Win this week would be super huge because we’d elevate back into 1st place in the North with just 2 games remaining. Vikings and Baltimore are very up n down right now. However we get a pair of home games also.

Also a Packer Win and a Detroit loss would be very damaging as Detroit would be officially out of the North race. Also Chicago has trio of tougher games remaining. A loss to us? could put that last game as a win or out of playoffs.
Vs Packers
At 49ers
Vs Detroit

 

[Packers4ever]

MLF needs to be fired , he has a winning percent of wins but cant never win the big one because he gets out coached all the time , they got out coached by Broncos HC yesterday, they were winning 23 to 14 and MLF had no business calling a long pass instead of controlling the ball with short passes but instead the momentum shifted after that play , injured the one of the best player we have, and we lost
The Packers will never win a SB with MLF as HC , he has been the Packers coach about 7 yrs and always chokes in big games , he has now great talent , as before but he cant win the big one , they will not get far this season with MLF in charge, hopefully the new guy in charge at Green Bay(Ed Policy)will not extend his contract and let him go , MLF is a good offensive coordinator , not a HC .
I love the Packers , i been a Packer fan all my life 62 yrs of it , the truth hurts, lets bring in a coach that will not choke when it gets tough , MLF is not the guy and the talent is been wasted with this guy