Fire Matt LaFleur

[Sanguine camper]

I already knew this was what you were referring to, I just thought I would entertain your constant complaints.
This is what all surface level evaluations look to. It’s called lazy fans or sometime pundits who don’t even watch games. Last year it was your group that complained about Not getting to the QB when in fact The Packers ranked 8th in Sacks. It’s a never ending, moving target when you debate with a fan who is never satisfied.

Btw you said Rashan Gary is one of the worst DE since week 10, which is quite obvious what you consider “worst”. You took zero time to do any research because you don’t care to and when you get called out on your laziness, you move target to “this is how I feel” which has exactly ZERO relevancy. You can have your lazy, unpacked opinion, but you can’t stand it when it doesn’t hold up to factual information.

There are factual evaluations of Gary that look at his pass rush stats getting QB in the first 3 seconds which bis most drop-backs. I would urge you to look those up. The facts won't be pretty.

I beg to differ but sacks still matter. Don't bring up garbage about pressures. They're a pseudo stat. How many times do you need to see a mobile QB turn a 'pressure' into am easy first down? Pressures are a stat for lazy fans.

 

[BrokenArrow]

There are factual evaluations of Gary that look at his pass rush stats getting QB in the first 3 seconds which bis most drop-backs. I would urge you to look those up. The facts won't be pretty.

I beg to differ but sacks still matter. Don't bring up garbage about pressures. They're a pseudo stat. How many times do you need to see a mobile QB turn a 'pressure' into am easy first down? Pressures are a stat for lazy fans.

Serious question: why do you bother watching? You're always miserable. I've looked at your posting history and you RARELY have anything positive to say, if ever. You're literally the most negative, dismal person I've ever encountered. You make Eeyore look like Spongebob.

 

[Sanguine camper]

Serious question: why do you bother watching? You're always miserable. I've looked at your posting history and you RARELY have anything positive to say, if ever. You're literally the most negative, dismal person I've ever encountered. You make Eeyore look like Spongebob.

Then you've been lazy in looking at my posting history. I've been quite favorable in my comments towards Gute and also about Love. I've also commented favorably about guys who play hard every week such as Josh Jacobs.

While I've been very critical of MLF, I think my comments have been very even-handed. I acknowledge his strengths but also point out his weakness as well.

In total, its true that my negative comments do outpace the positive ones. I guess it comes down to the fact I was a huge fan in the 70's and 80's when the Packers had no hope of winning championships. That makes me more sensitive to the wasted opportunities that we've witnessed too often in the Rodgers and now the Love-Parsons era. This year perhaps being the worst. The opportunities aren't going to last forever.

 

[Half Empty]

Serious question: why do you bother watching? You're always miserable. I've looked at your posting history and you RARELY have anything positive to say, if ever. You're literally the most negative, dismal person I've ever encountered. You make Eeyore look like Spongebob.

Hey, Half Empty would take exception to that.

 

[AGreen2AJones]

If the Packers lose in the Wild Card round, MLF must be immediately relieved of his duties. You don't get to lose the last five games of the season as the Head Coach of the Green Bay Packers.

 

[Magooch]

If the Packers lose in the Wild Card round, MLF must be immediately relieved of his duties. You don't get to lose the last five games of the season as the Head Coach of the Green Bay Packers.

On one hand I don’t feel that any one single game should really be a make-or-break in these kind of situations (though one could certainly argue it’s not been just one game), but if I’m Ed Policy, I think next week is basically a must-win if I’m considering extending LaFleur.

A no-win next week means ending the season on a 5-game losing streak and - more importantly - one playoff win in the last five seasons. Injuries or not, I just don’t think that can be acceptable. At that point, continuing on (and especially if an extension is offered) is effectively sending a message that says “we are satisfied and content with merely making the postseason and do not have any expectation for postseason success”

 

[Sanguine camper]

If the Packers lose in the Wild Card round, MLF must be immediately relieved of his duties. You don't get to lose the last five games of the season as the Head Coach of the Green Bay Packers.

I would disagree. There's no indication by Gute or Policy that they're unhappy. Just this week, Policy said he was proud of the 9-7-1 Packers. Maybe he's trying to encourage the team, but I doubt MLF is going to be canned no matter what happens next week. Like the Steelers, the Packers don't like much turnover in the HC position.

On top of that, the Packers lucked out by getting a matchup with the Bears. Their defense sucks and that's hard to overcome in the playoffs. I would guess there's a 50% chance that MLF gets his wildcard win facing that sieve of a defense.

 

[adambr2]

I would disagree. There's no indication by Gute or Policy that they're unhappy. Just this week, Policy said he was proud of the 9-7-1 Packers. Maybe he's trying to encourage the team, but I doubt MLF is going to be canned no matter what happens next week. Like the Steelers, the Packers don't like much turnover in the HC position.

On top of that, the Packers lucked out by getting a matchup with the Bears. Their defense sucks and that's hard to overcome in the playoffs. I would guess there's a 50% chance that MLF gets his wildcard win facing that sieve of a defense.

I agree that we are kind of the Steelers of the NFC.

It beats being the Browns or Jets, I guess, but I don’t love it. It’s consistency. I’d rather take our lumps for a couple years and try to build something special than just be good with the status quo.

 

[oompatailgate]

for the thread

and I am a very big critic of MLF - but this ship is sunk it lies next to the Titanic - this last loss is NOT NOT his fault! Can we dig up Lombardi (or a reasonable facsimile thereof (a 3 Stooges quote)). I think the GB HOF should try and sell mirrors - we may need to turn the bad joo-joo - and then break them...

with the troops thinned ; I am very happy for the 3rd stringers who got to really showcase their talent (in a real game) , Better tomorrows to them. Not even PO'ed or upset over this loss

 

[AmishMafia]

Serious question: why do you bother watching? You're always miserable. I've looked at your posting history and you RARELY have anything positive to say, if ever. You're literally the most negative, dismal person I've ever encountered. You make Eeyore look like Spongebob.

I always wonder regarding his choice of names, ironic? Or does he really think he is optimistic?

There will always be this sort of fan. Just like to be critical. The Packers could win the SB this year 42-3 and they would be upset we gave up the 3.

 

[milani]

On one hand I don’t feel that any one single game should really be a make-or-break in these kind of situations (though one could certainly argue it’s not been just one game), but if I’m Ed Policy, I think next week is basically a must-win if I’m considering extending LaFleur.

A no-win next week means ending the season on a 5-game losing streak and - more importantly - one playoff win in the last five seasons. Injuries or not, I just don’t think that can be acceptable. At that point, continuing on (and especially if an extension is offered) is effectively sending a message that says “we are satisfied and content with merely making the postseason and do not have any expectation for postseason success”

The Packers are not the same team they were in WK 1 or in WK 9. They made the playoffs because of early season performance. With the roster they have left it would be quite a feat for any coach to even win one of those games. We are not playing the Raiders or the Saints or even the Jets. These are the league's best. The Packers are a team built around the achievements of a handful of players in order to succeed. A deep roster they are not and have not been for a long time. Contrast that with SF, which has had key injuries to stars, but HAS a deep roster and that is what carried them to the record they have now. Now if you just want to see a change in coaching for change sake I can understand. Some teams decide to go in a different direction, like Atlanta, that fired its coach and GM after a 4 game win streak. Others like the Ravens and Steelers keep their coach through thick and thin. But I believe a change in the HC will not suddenly take this team to the SB next year. It would be another revamp season and after a couple years it may get there.

 

[tynimiller]

I want a team and coach that gives us a ticket for a shot. Been alive long enough and seen how hard it is for organizations to accomplish relevancy, let alone a shot.

In my opinion the only reasons for firing MLF three years into his time with Love is mismanagement of staff as #1. Rich needed fired or one of his two roles removed (ST Coordinator and Assistant Head Coach) as a direct result of underachievement in game; coaches ultimately cannot execute the calls or what you've been coached to do - but removal of factors which may be compounding the issues needs done and MLF has failed to do so.

Similarly I think a discussion or experiment at least even IF only in the preseason of having someone else make the playcalls; head coach is going to always hold the trump card, and be a massive influencer in the gameplaning but as some has said - is OC and HC responsibilities just not something MLF has perfected the art of handling?

A few other potentail valid reasons or factors for someone who might be in the know like Policy is if they feel mismanagement of the players occurred...thinking of the McManus situation. Was that a training staff issue, was it a McManus lying issue...or did MLF choose to be ignorant to it all? IF he was deemed a factor of that mismanagement that is something worth bringing up as well. IF there was mismanagement, one could argue it cost us a crucial first half of the season game...which could have had massive impacts later that we will never know.

However, the string of losses I could care less about...one of them didn't matter (Vikings) and the Ravens game barely did and only would if Bears dropped both of their last games.

I actually think that depsite all the injuries for the season or injuries to guys fighting through them (Love, Jacobs...and others) this 9 win season is arguably one of MLF and his staff's best.

Do I believe MLF should be fired? No.

Will I be shocked if after the dust of the season settles that he is one of the changes? No.

What do I think will happen?

Honestly, I think undisclosed meetings will occur and changes will happen. I think Rich Bissacia will 100% be gone. I think if anyone holds the assistant head coach role it will be Hafley or Sten. I think both Gute and MLF will know internally a window of time for them to say minimum win division and make an NFCCG is - and if not met will be terminated prior to the completion of each of their extensions. Player wise I think Gute and Co. will make some hard but necessary decisions...like Jenkins not getting a discussion of paycut, just a thank you and departure. I think honestly Gary is on his way out....if not a pure cut, a post June1st cut designation unless we can find a trade partner. I think one of the following is 60%+ likely released as well - Nixon, Banks, Hobbs. I think Gute is going to target in FA one real significant signing of a iDL or an outside CB + likely some other pieces as well, he will have the money.

 

[Magooch]

One big complicating factor for me is that...broadly speaking it seems like Matt just has a hard time with his coaching hires beneath him. There are a lot of seasons where we can pin some blame on those guys and say it's not Matt's fault, the fault lies with....Bisaccia, Barry, Drayton, whoever...but these are guys who were put in those positions by Matt himself.
And now, there's a lot of buzz about a potential Hafley departure. Assuming Bisaccia is gone (rightfully so), extending with Matt means you're going to either have to be okay with him selecting a new DC and ST coordinator OR step in, take it out of his hands, and make those choices for him. And I don't think either one of those options are super appealing.

I'd like to hope that maybe we can have Hafley take over as assistant HC from Rich, but if he gets HC offers elsewhere I don't know if I'd really expect him to stay. In either case, I would also hope to see a much clearer delineation of duties between our current HC, OC, and assistant HC. It's still awfully unclear to me what exactly Bisaccia's "assistant HC" role actually entails. What responsibilities does he have and/or what is he taking off of Matt's plate? What is Matt delegating (or not) that he should/shouldn't be? What exactly does Stenavich do? We know the "system" is Matt's offense, and Matt is the playcaller. Sometimes it seems like Sten is a glorified OL coach who was promoted just because we didn't want him to be poached away elsewhere... maybe I am off-base with that, maybe that is a topic for another day.

It's just a really tough call for me because I honestly like Matt a lot as a guy (as far as I can judge from my couch) and think he does a lot of things really well. But at the same time it's knowing the things he does well and the potential it feels like he has that makes him such a frustrating guy to have in charge at times. And a lot of the potential solutions, short of just firing him, don't seem super feasible. You can't demote him to OC. I don't think he wants to give up playcalling. What responsibilities can we feasibly take off his plate to allow his strengths to shine?

At this point, I don't know if it's very realistic or not but my ideal solution would be something like offering a conditional extension. We know Policy doesn't want LaFleur/Gute on lame duck contracts but as I've said before a one-year extension is basically just a delayed lame duck. I'd like to see something like an extension that is triggered by certain postseason success markers - you're under contract through 2026, but if you string together a couple of playoff wins in 2025 we'll automatically tack another year on. If you make an NFCCG in 2025 or 2026 it'll automatically kick in for a new 4 year contract or something like that. Probably not super typical (or even that realistic) but I think would be an okay compromise for where we're at right now - basically a way of saying "We like you and want to continue working together but at some point we have to start getting better results"

 

[DABIGZ]

I want a team and coach that gives us a ticket for a shot. Been alive long enough and seen how hard it is for organizations to accomplish relevancy, let alone a shot.

In my opinion the only reasons for firing MLF three years into his time with Love is mismanagement of staff as #1. Rich needed fired or one of his two roles removed (ST Coordinator and Assistant Head Coach) as a direct result of underachievement in game; coaches ultimately cannot execute the calls or what you've been coached to do - but removal of factors which may be compounding the issues needs done and MLF has failed to do so.

Similarly I think a discussion or experiment at least even IF only in the preseason of having someone else make the playcalls; head coach is going to always hold the trump card, and be a massive influencer in the gameplaning but as some has said - is OC and HC responsibilities just not something MLF has perfected the art of handling?

A few other potentail valid reasons or factors for someone who might be in the know like Policy is if they feel mismanagement of the players occurred...thinking of the McManus situation. Was that a training staff issue, was it a McManus lying issue...or did MLF choose to be ignorant to it all? IF he was deemed a factor of that mismanagement that is something worth bringing up as well. IF there was mismanagement, one could argue it cost us a crucial first half of the season game...which could have had massive impacts later that we will never know.

However, the string of losses I could care less about...one of them didn't matter (Vikings) and the Ravens game barely did and only would if Bears dropped both of their last games.

I actually think that depsite all the injuries for the season or injuries to guys fighting through them (Love, Jacobs...and others) this 9 win season is arguably one of MLF and his staff's best.

Do I believe MLF should be fired? No.

Will I be shocked if after the dust of the season settles that he is one of the changes? No.

What do I think will happen?

Honestly, I think undisclosed meetings will occur and changes will happen. I think Rich Bissacia will 100% be gone. I think if anyone holds the assistant head coach role it will be Hafley or Sten. I think both Gute and MLF will know internally a window of time for them to say minimum win division and make an NFCCG is - and if not met will be terminated prior to the completion of each of their extensions. Player wise I think Gute and Co. will make some hard but necessary decisions...like Jenkins not getting a discussion of paycut, just a thank you and departure. I think honestly Gary is on his way out....if not a pure cut, a post June1st cut designation unless we can find a trade partner. I think one of the following is 60%+ likely released as well - Nixon, Banks, Hobbs. I think Gute is going to target in FA one real significant signing of a iDL or an outside CB + likely some other pieces as well, he will have the money.

Very well put, I agree with most of this.

But I did want to point out that the bears DID lose the last two games... But to your point it didn't really matter in the end.

 

[tynimiller]

Very well put, I agree with most of this.

But I did want to point out that the bears DID lose the last two games... But to your point it didn't really matter in the end.

True

 

[pacmaniac]

“we are satisfied and content with merely making the postseason and do not have any expectation for postseason success”

That is the Bears' mentality. That should not be the Packers' mentality.

 

[milani]

Very well put, I agree with most of this.

But I did want to point out that the bears DID lose the last two games... But to your point it didn't really matter in the end.

Both of those losses were to quality teams and it came down to the final play of the game just as their loss to us did. Reminiscent of the entire Bears season.

 

[Sanguine camper]

I always wonder regarding his choice of names, ironic? Or does he really think he is optimistic?

There will always be this sort of fan. Just like to be critical. The Packers could win the SB this year 42-3 and they would be upset we gave up the 3.

Why is it that when posters make critical comments they're attacked. I could just easily label others as irrationally optimistic or even worse.

I think it's dubious to conclude people make critical comments because they expect perfection. That's bogus. What irks many fans is when the team shows an unprofessional lack of focus and intensity leading to dumb mistakes or what appears to be a lack of effort.

Another sore spot is the perceived inability or stubbornness to make adjustments by coaches. Kind of like doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

I also think some fans are just more dissatisfied and critical with losing, especially when the team is so talented. The squandered opportunities rub some people the wrong way.

I understand, some fans are going to be fine with losing. More power to them but a large cohort of fans isn't.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

With all the talk about "Hafley will be gone and be the next HC somewhere", has anyone kicked around the idea that if MLF were fired, the job would be offered to Hafley?

While I am in agreement with @tynimiller on MLF's position in the organization and if he fires Bisaccia and gives up play calling, I would love to see MLF back in GB.

Or here is another random idea, but I don't think MLF would do it.

Matt steps down as HC, and becomes strictly the OC. Either Hafley is promoted to HC or they find a new HC.

 

[tynimiller]

With all the talk about "Hafley will be gone and be the next HC somewhere", has anyone kicked around the idea that if MLF were fired, the job would be offered to Hafley?

While I am in agreement with @tynimiller on MLF's position in the organization and if he fires Bisaccia and gives up play calling, I would love to see MLF back in GB.

Or here is another random idea, but I don't think MLF would do it.

Matt steps down as HC, and becomes strictly the OC. Either Hafley is promoted to HC or they find a new HC.

I thought of this too...but such moves in any business rarely work unless a guy/gal is heading to retirement and is part of the transition period.

 

[AmishMafia]

Why is it that when posters make critical comments they're attacked. I could just easily label others as irrationally optimistic or even worse.

That describes me, irrationally optimistic. I am a Packer fan through thick and thin.

I understand, some fans are going to be fine with losing. More power to them but a large cohort of fans isn't.

No fan is fine with losing. Most just understand and appreciate the complexities of the game, the nature of the game, and the level of competition. We lost our best offensive and defensive weapons and our chances have been reduced by that. I still will enjoy the opportunity if this season.

 

[OldSchool101]

So, may I ask Oldschool, do you think Gary is living up to the money he’s getting paid?

That’s a solid question. While I’m a fan of his, I think he’s overpaid, but only slightly. If sources are correct he’s averaging $24m yearly. Which today these guys get paid and I know it might sound high. Yet I see him in the top 25% of Edge players.

Also with Micah on the field, he goes from top 25% area to top 10-15% area, so we need to look at the global plan.

Without a clear #1 he’s probably giving us $20mil annual production. With a clear #1 Micah he’s breaking even around $25mil annual results. Keto in mind he was pacing 14 sacks and a top 5-10 pressure rate, plus he hovers in the top 25% in Run stop which is forgotten about.

 

[OldSchool101]

There are factual evaluations of Gary that look at his pass rush stats getting QB in the first 3 seconds which bis most drop-backs. I would urge you to look those up. The facts won't be pretty.

I beg to differ but sacks still matter. Don't bring up garbage about pressures. They're a pseudo stat. How many times do you need to see a mobile QB turn a 'pressure' into am easy first down? Pressures are a stat for lazy fans.

Write the NFL and every major sport outlet. I’d recommend telling them to pull pressure rates and give them your suggestion and arguments about hiw none of it matters anymore, and it’s all just lazy accounting. I really don’t care it’s a little bit crazy talk if I’m being honest. But I’m sure they’ll be as amused as I am! They use QB pressures as one of the primary group of measurements for production at Edge and it’s inextricably linked to Sacks also. I also listed Double Teams efficiency and % and Run stop metrics. There’s more to an Edge than just a line Sack number and it’s why I said your argument is partial and incomplete. Which is why I called it a lazy argument. It doesn’t tell the whole story.

Btw. When paired with Micah, Gary was pacing 14 sacks as you alluded to earlier. While that might be small consolation now that Micah is out. It showed to be a formidable and dynamic pairing.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I thought of this too...but such moves in any business rarely work unless a guy/gal is heading to retirement and is part of the transition period.

Oh I agree and if MLF is given the choice of being fired or stepping down to being just the OC, he would probably say "no thanks". That said, I doubt his next gig in the NFL would be as a HC, so that is something for him to consider.

 

[DABIGZ]

That’s a solid question. While I’m a fan of his, I think he’s overpaid, but only slightly. If sources are correct he’s averaging $24m yearly. Which today these guys get paid and I know it might sound high. Yet I see him in the top 25% of Edge players.

Also with Micah on the field, he goes from top 25% area to top 10-15% area, so we need to look at the global plan.

Without a clear #1 he’s probably giving us $20mil annual production. With a clear #1 Micah he’s breaking even around $25mil annual results. Keto in mind he was pacing 14 sacks and a top 5-10 pressure rate, plus he hovers in the top 25% in Run stop which is forgotten about.

Earning in the top 25% while 325 other players recorded at least half a sack is, in my opinion, very overpaid. I think someone in another thread brought up this stat.