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"Fans"Wanting A Staples Easy Button

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by JbShell, Aug 14, 2006.

  1. JbShell

    JbShell Cheesehead

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    Seems while reading on here alot of dooooooom and gloom out there. While I agree there were areas of the game that you could only shake you head and and drink a beer there were positives.

    Like I said the team was spurts of bad with trickles of good. This is all an experience thing. As the team gets acclimated to playing as a unti good things will happen.

    I dont know why some of you guys think that you can gleen anything truly of substance out of the first preseason game is beyond me. I didnt get anything good or bad with it. I remember a few years back when the Pack did that blitz all the time thing and looked like world killers in the preseason and fell flat to a 1-4 opening.

    This is what I say.

    Bad) O-line showed there youth and inexperience all night with a new scheme. alot of whiffed blocks and missed and slow reaction. (remember SD plays denver twice a year and is wwell versed in defending a zone offensive scheme)

    Good. While the O-line did not perform well in all areas thier dicipline was ok not alot of false starts which were a tm Sherman team. ( dicipline is the first sign in the makings of a strong team.

    Bad Brett seemed out of sorts at first and was pulling it back.

    Good Brtett gutted out a longer series than most starting QBS I think towards the end a flicker of confidence came out.

    Bad D looked like a junk pile at first.

    Good they did recover towards the end of the starting units stint and stiffened.

    well all I got to say right now.

    Remeber Fans there is no easy button for the Packers to push as long as there is progress each week I dont care what the preseason record is.
     
  2. Anubis

    Anubis Cheesehead

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    I would just like to clarify a few things:

    It seems to me that many things are getting lost in the translation when this forum discusses such topics as the abysmal display the Pack put on in
    week one of the preseason. The general concensus I have found among most people that watched the game is that there is little to no improvement on the o-line over last year. Chalk it up to rookie mistakes, new coaching staff or a new offensive play book, but the bottom line is that it is now quite apparent that the concerns many of us had during the preseason were justified. HOWEVER, there were several things I saw that were quite encouraging:

    1. Minimal penalties over last year.
    2. McCarthy moving quickly on challenges.
    3. John Ryan's punting.
    4. Receiving corps showing improvement.

    However, a lot of this has been overshadowed by a poor showing on defense (especially the secondary) and a seemingly incapable o-line that resulted in more than a few sacks. I believe the defense will improve over the next few weeks, but it seems we are stuck with the o-line for better or for worse. This is not (as one poster endlessly repeats) "the end of the world" but it is not cause to bounce up and down like a teenaged cheerleader neither.

    GO PACK!!!

    Robert C. Hedley
     
  3. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    Good Post Anubis. Trom turned this into an "end of the world" thing and a few people went along with it. It is classic Trom. Instead of disagreeing with you like an adult he turns everything you say into a the most extreme viewpoint opposite his side so people will agree with him and disagree with you. He needs some sort of validation from it.


    The truth is I said the O-line was horrendous which it was. I am not optimistic enough to think that these young guys are going to improve enough to allow us to even sniff the playoffs. It just does not work that way, sorry. I watched these guys and honestly they were flat out TERRIBLE. As I stated months ago these guys are RAW rookies who use terrible technique. Does that mean they can't change? Of course not, BUT, it will take more time than most people think. These guys needed 2-3 years to be developed like 95% of the other teams in the NFL go about it. Instead we are throwing them right into the fire because we have no other options.


    I can go back and find posters on this board who stated that Colledge and Spitz would be ready to go by Pre-Season because they were going to have all thier technique problems fixed by the coaching staff right away. I remember a CERTAIN poster stating that these techniques problems could be fixed in 2 weeks maximum. How did that work out?


    This problem is not something we can fix before week 1 OR week 9 for that matter. These guys may improve but improving from that pitiful performance would not take much. I don't knock anyone for trying to be positive because thats what pre-season is for. However, pointing to how much more disciplined this team is because we didn't jump offsides is really digging. You are right they didn't jump offsides, in fact, they barely even moved even after the play started, thats why Brett was on his back most of the time.


    There are positives on this team, but not a whole lot. The Defense was sub-par at best last night and that was the one thing I felt good about. I find it hard to be excited about anything on offense because without the O-line the wheels on the bus don't go round' and round'. On top of that our Special Teams is almost laughable.


    If you want to buy into Trom's cry for validation go ahead but I heard NOONE on this forum state it was "The End Of The World." If you want to look on the bright side feel free to do so as well, BUT, some people choose to go on what they saw on the field Saturday Night to form thier opinion.


    Do I think this team has a shot at anything? Certainly Not. We are a 10-6 team with an 0-16 Offensive Line which puts at probably 6-10. Certainly not the end of the world but a mile from what we could have achieved had the man in charge had just a little forsight.
     
  4. rob836

    rob836 Cheesehead

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    Good. While the O-line did not perform well in all areas thier dicipline was ok not alot of false starts which were a tm Sherman team. ( dicipline is the first sign in the makings of a strong team.


    I think GB had no false starts and no holding penalty on the O-line.
     
  5. Packnic

    Packnic Cheesehead

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    again you bring up TT's lack of foresight.... but you have AGAIN yet to bring up any reasonable, non fantasy football outlook as to how TT could have done better.


    so please quit bashing the management and the team, until you can argue a good response on how it could have been handled better. i know it makes you look smart to bash the management constantly, but with no reasonable approach to make anything better... its nothing more than you touting your own obvious conclusions to make yourself look as though you know what your talking about. WE all know the OLINE is not hall of fame worthy, we just choose to believe they have talent and will gel as the preseason and season go on.
    but maybe your right, there is no such thing as progression, and just because we got beat in the first preseason game means we have no chance to do anything this year.
    and again if you dislike the packers that much, get a new team... i hear the panthers are doing everything right if you wanna join up with them.
     
  6. JbShell

    JbShell Cheesehead

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    If you call out something on a thread to which someone criticized the managment please state how did on this thread I have read it again I know i did not call out management or anyone else. So to whom are you speaking to
     
  7. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    I'm not "doom and gloom" but just stated what i saw. And what i saw for the most part was NOT pretty. Will it change by the regular season? Heck, i don't know! I HOPE so. There were a few good spots, but too many bad ones. I'm not throwing away the season yet, or jumping off the bandwagon. I never WILL jump off. But man, they looked ill prepared for sure. It IS true that it mean nothing season wise. I just don't want Brett killed before the season even starts. And he was running for his life EVERY play. All i saw was "lookout blocks" (where the o linemen yell "BRETT! LOOKOUT!!!)
     
  8. DakotaT

    DakotaT Cheesehead

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    So Pyle, how would go about running our offense with these limitations on this offensive line? Certainly we can't be running any 7 step drop deep passes, so Favre will have to get rid of the ball quicker, would he not. I think Brett misses Ahman Green for blocking as much as anything else.

    As far as predicting records at this point in the pre-season goes, it seems a little premature. It's entertaining, but there probably aren't too many posters willing to lay any jack on the line at this point. I personally think an 8-8 record would be commendable and realistic factoring in the amount of youth on this team. Anything more than that is gravy and I am smiling.
     
  9. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    You know Packnic, I can post whatever I want. Just like you can post your "I think TT is great stuff" I can post "TT stinks." Are you related to Trom? I disagree with your outlook for this team, don't take it personally. Why the hell should I answer what TT should have done different, I don't have to. This is what I know. GB was a 4-12 team last year. GB came out in the Pre-season and looked pathetically bad on both sides of the ball. What more is there to say?


    TT has not put a product anything close to successful on the field since he has took over ........... Period! You can have optimism, thats fine, but I choose to look at whats more likely. The O-Line situation will not be fixed any time soon because It can't be. Only Time will cure the problem and 3 months is not enough. When you draft RAW guys you better have at least a year or 2 to groom them.

    So when it comes to what I would have done different, here's a few ideas that I have posted before but you obviously neglected to read because you cannot stand objectivity.

    Resign Wahle - Could have happened, period. If TT thought it was impossible there were Guards available last year that would have been better than what we have now. He chose to pursue guys like Ray Thompson, Earl Little, and Arturo Freeman instead. None contributed.

    Draft Refined Guys - So after the lack of forsight last year TT had to know we were in big trouble up front. His solution? Trade away perhaps our best WR for Colledge. Of course he didn't even really have to trade Jwalk to get Colledge but he wanted to have boatloads of 6th and 7th rounders because GOD KNOWS we were in a position to do so. Sorry, we were 4-12 last year and we don't have the luxury of grooming guys slowly. Colledge's knock was his bad technique, but TT knew he would have to throw him in right away, yet he still drafted him. Ditto for Spitz. He drafted these guys because they fit the Zone-Blocking scheme to the T. However it seems he didn't take into account the terrible technique AND lack of pass blocking. Maybe he should have pursued more technically solid guys who were a little more aggressive but slightly bigger. Two guys Kevin Booth from Cornell and Chris Kuper from ND. Denver grabbed Kuper but hey what do they know about Zone Blocking.


    Pursue OG's - I don't need to crunch numbers to know that I would trade Woodson, Boerighter, let Davenport go, etc to have gotten Hutchinson instead of having the 2-3 raw guys we have right now at the OG position. He also couldhave went after a Guard last year. Trade for one, Trade down in the draft, cut guys, re-negotiate contracts, etc. There are TONS of options TT could have pursued. He did NONE and now we are stuckl starting 2 rookie Guards with no depth behind them.


    I have other complaints. Billy Cundiff? Are you kidding? JWalk was given away because he threw a fit and TT caved. I could go on and on. He hired Mike McCarthy, are you serious? Not even on most teams radar.


    Now, I will let the excuses begin. I am prepared for it because I've heard them all. But Packnic, don't question my loyalty to the Packers because I refuse to be satisfied with a 4-12 season and a mediocre, effortless, emotionless pre-season game. I love my Pack, but am concerned about the future, and have every right to be. Furthermore, I do not have to defend myself to some one who can't take off thier green and gold glasses long enough to see this team has got an uphill battle in front of them with noone capable of leading them.
     
  10. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    Thats a funny question because I am facing the same problem with my team. My O-line is terrible. I plan on using alot of Shotgun and quick dumpoffs to the TE's and RB's as long as some WR screens which I hate. If Brett was more mobile we could get him outside the pocket. That still does not address the run. Inthe NFL you have to be able to run between the Tackles, down here we can beat em' with speed to the outside. If they take away the outside we can run Off-Tackle pretty effectively if you can get your Guards to scrap to the next level. Honestly it's to hard to mask a mediocre O-Line in the NFL. The Defenses are just to fast and to disciplined.
     
  11. DakotaT

    DakotaT Cheesehead

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    I guess I'll have to to Quervo shots with my Coronas on Sundays this football season. Let's hope the lights go on with these O-line guys.
     
  12. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    I saw a couple of the shots Favre took......maybe they should have held. Based on the little I saw, I think they were too slow to their assignments to be able to hold. All 5 sacks were by linebackers which tells you that they were not playing their gaps, which is clearly the "zone-blocking" scheme of things. It takes a while to learn so hopefully in a few weeks they're better at it. These guys were chosen because they fit the scheme, right? Let's just hope we don't lose a QB or a RB while they learn.
     
  13. krd005

    krd005 Cheesehead

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    I would gladly trade on offsides or two for more aggressive play on the o line.

    One thing that gets me is that we knew we had this problem 2 years ago and nothing was done by TT to address it
     
  14. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    Don't say that KRD005, A few CERTAIN posters will question if you are truly a Packers fan!
     
  15. krd005

    krd005 Cheesehead

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    HA!!!

    People forget that we all want the boys to win, we just have different opinions on how to get it done.

    Although mine is usually always the right way! HA
     
  16. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

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    Perhaps were looking at this situation all wrong.

    How about the Packers try out a couple of the cheer leaders at the G positions. Heck encourage them to flirt with the opposition, wear next to nothing if needed. That'd get it done.

    I would be willing to sacrifice watching guys get run over and punished by our O-line if this change was made. Somehow, I just don't think College/Wells/Spitz in a skimpy bikini would quite cut it....

    That's why I'd go with the cheerleaders! :twisted:

    This creative enough pyle? :p
     
  17. DakotaT

    DakotaT Cheesehead

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    BAIT, Get your Bait, here! Since, I'm a hook, line, and sinker sucker; shouldn't there have been some depth built underneath Mr. Wonderful? What ever happened to Morley and the rest of the boobs MS drafted and/or traded for?

    Seriously though boys, until these new guards and Wells can blow some holes open and pass protect, you guys are winning this argument. When, and notice I used when, these rookies and Wells start kicking ***, will you concede? Or will you just complain about it taking too long?
     
  18. Lare

    Lare Cheesehead

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    You want further validation of the job TT has done for the OL?

    According to reports, Colledge was pulled from the LG starting position in practice today, Spitz was moved to LG and Moll was inserted at RG. So starts this year's version of the "Offensive Line Shuffle", thank god we got lots of draft picks.
     
  19. Packnic

    Packnic Cheesehead

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    pyle

    "you cant drive a cadillac all the time" we cannot win the superbowl every year, there are gonna be rebuilding years, due to age of players and now free agency. you cant keep the best team and you cant always afford the best team. Now what we can do, is make the best of rebuilding and do it as quickly as possible and hope for a 3 or 4 year run of greatness again. This is what i see TT doing. You obviously dont.

    I have no doubts that TT is not perfect. I hate the kicker situation, he definetly coulda handled that better... either offer AV all he wanted or signed Vanderjagt or keep Longwell.

    The JWalk situation is iffy... its not reasonable or efficient to keep him on the roster not playing. So lets just say he had to get rid of him. he maybe should have persued more, but we all discussed this long ago. With the knee injury he maybe couldnt have gotten any more than what he got.

    The MM comment i cant even stand. Your saying MM was a bad choice because he wasnt on other teams radars. AFTER ONE FREAKIN PRESEASON GAME. The man has done most things to the packer nation liking. Hardnose, Fast pace. TT sought out his man, found the one he thought would do the best in the current situation. JUST BECAUSE ITS NOT CONVENTIONAL DOESNT MAKE IT THE WRONG CHOICE.

    now the Guard situation i dont know.... your speculating that Hutchinson would play well in this system and that he would be worth that unbelievable amount of money ... in reality he would be getting paid WAY WAY more than colledge and Spitz put together... and he would be learning a new system just like those guys. So how far ahead of them would he really be, and would it be worth all that much money...
    and as far as drafting the other guys instead of spitz and colledge.... whatever who knows... they are both still rookies and both would be counted on to start, so you really cant say that just because they have "better technique" they will be better on our team. Mandarich had all the trimmings too. all speculation.

    So in summary... Without TT pretending this is fantasy football and buying up aging WAY too expensive guards, and loud mouth recievers, all because people speculate they will perform on THIS TEAM in THIS SITUATION. Every situation is different and im sure that is takin into consideration.... i think hes done the best any GM could do while trying to be fiscally responisble.

    not really doubting your fandom, just gets old when people bash a GM based soley on speculation. Obviously he is in the position for a reason and obviously you are typing on a computer and arguing with my *** for a reason. YOU ARE A PACKER FAN, AND SO AM I ... WE JUST DONT AGREE.. fair enough???
     
  20. mrbigshot30

    mrbigshot30 Cheesehead

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    Pyle,

    i couldnt agree with you any more. TT is a total dumb ***. im sorry but i can not stand the guy he has done nothing but run this team straight into the ground. Before TT came to GB they won the NFC North what 4 consecutive years in arow. Hmm. .. ever since he came all he done was absolutly nothing to help this team out. He let the best O-line crumble letting Wahle and River go. He also let one of the best safteys in the NFL go to Minnisota! He absolutly did nothing to replace them. Causin us to drop to a 4-12 season. HE IS TERRIFFIC! the folowing year he let one of the best kickers in the NFL go to Minnisota yet again. and again he does nothing but bring in Billy Cundiff. HA what a f-ing joke. he is probably the most in accurat kickers i have ever seen play the game. and again he does nothing to improve our o-line but bring in two RAW rookies who cant block ****. so all of you TT lovers either dont know what the hell is going on or you are blind as ****!
     
  21. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Mrbigshot......in todays NFL, you can't keep everyone. There is a salary cap. Rivera was on his last legs, as we have seen. Wahle would have been nice to keep, but he cost a fortune. Longwell wanted out of Green Bay......he wanted to kick in a dome where he could pat his stats. I would have liked to see Vinatieri kicking here, but he also wanted to kick indoors.
    Sometimes you WANTING players kept doesn't work if the players want out. Mike McKenzie and Javon Walker are proof of that. The GM can only do so much. TT took over a team that Sherman had messed up GM wise. Now he has to try to fix it, which might take several years.
    Some people talk like TT WANTS the Packers to lose. That doesn't make any sense. If they lose, he could lose his job. I'm sure he's doing what he can with what he has to work with. None of us are on the inside to KNOW what he has to deal with. So i'm not going to judge till he has a couple years to see if what he is doing works. The team was getting old, lots of older players. Sooner or later you HAVE to rebuild. These guys don't last forever.
    I'm hoping of course that it all comes together quickly, but who really KNOWS right now?
     
  22. mrbigshot30

    mrbigshot30 Cheesehead

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    first off i understand Rivera was on his last leg. wahle would have been ideal. but when you draft all of these rookies their is like a 10% chance they are going to have a good career. but if you draftt them and put them right into the starting line their is no way they will be going good. i mean dont get me wrong i think he is doing somethings right in drafting Rodgers, Collins, and Murphy. All three have potential. I thought Murphy had potential if it wasnt for is career ending injury. I think both Rodgers and Collins will someday make it to the Pro Bowl. This year i did see a few good things by bringing in Pickett, Manual, and Woodson. adn drafting Hawk, Jennings and Hodge. but when we traded JWalk to Denver i though for sure they were goin to use that pick for C. Jackson or actually a good lineman. Instead we trade it and end up with colledge. come on! the we have spitz. same damn thing as colledge he will not be any good mark my words! if TT is doing things right it sure doesnt seem to be working. Another thing Sherman must have been doing something right to make the team win. Because like i said before the "TT downfall era" we actually won games!!
     
  23. mrbigshot30

    mrbigshot30 Cheesehead

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    first off i understand Rivera was on his last leg. wahle would have been ideal. but when you draft all of these rookies their is like a 10% chance they are going to have a good career. but if you draftt them and put them right into the starting line their is no way they will be going good. i mean dont get me wrong i think he is doing somethings right in drafting Rodgers, Collins, and Murphy. All three have potential. I thought Murphy had potential if it wasnt for is career ending injury. I think both Rodgers and Collins will someday make it to the Pro Bowl. This year i did see a few good things by bringing in Pickett, Manual, and Woodson. adn drafting Hawk, Jennings and Hodge. but when we traded JWalk to Denver i though for sure they were goin to use that pick for C. Jackson or actually a good lineman. Instead we trade it and end up with colledge. come on! the we have spitz. same damn thing as colledge he will not be any good mark my words! if TT is doing things right it sure doesnt seem to be working. Another thing Sherman must have been doing something right to make the team win. Because like i said before the "TT downfall era" we actually won games!!
     
  24. Anubis

    Anubis Cheesehead

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    I have only one question:

    Why is it when someone posts a critical opinion of any decisions TT makes, or what they see on the field, it is becoming more and more common to doubt what kind of fan they are???

    Maybe you don't like my opinion of the current o-line. Too bad. I want to see my team win, and I don't think that is going to happen when the o-line currently in place allows our QB to be sacked three consecutive times in one possession. Maybe you consider this "development". I wonder what you will call it if Favre takes a bad hit in the preseason that results in a season-ending injury... I am sure it will really do a lot to boost Rodger's confidence. :roll:

    I have seen some things TT has done that I like, however ignoring the o-line after last season's debaucle isn't one of them. Brining in a new coach, with a new scheme and new rookie guards sans any NFL experience isn't what I call a solution. There WERE things TT could have done instead, but it is too late for that now. We are stuck with his decisions for better or for worse. It seems to me that TT, along with a lot of posters on this board, felt that experienced free agents were "overpriced". Maybe you all have forgotten that it is the "experience" part that makes FA's command higher salaries than rookies. Some of you think that the right size is primary, and any sort of talent is secondary. However, I don't believe that is a good attitude to have when trying to build a championship calibre football team.

    GO PACK!!!

    Robert C. Hedley
     
  25. mrbigshot30

    mrbigshot30 Cheesehead

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    My thoughts exactlt Anibus. Like Favre said this team is more talented than the 1996 and 97 teams who mad the superbowl and won it is 96 BUT EXPERIENCE IS WHAT WINS GAMES. without it we have no team. thanks to TT we are in for another long season of Brett getting knocked to the turf 97% of the time he drops back and a our RB getting stuffed at the line!
     

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