Clinton-Dix traded to Redskins

[El Guapo]

I'm not sure that I agree with the handful of folks on here that keep thinking that Josh Jackson is going to be the safety. That doesn't make much sense to me at this point when there are better options (all relative) on the roster. I don't like confusing rookies with multiple roles as I think that it usually throws a monkey wrench in their progress.

 

[Mondio]

Fat thumb, my bad. Retracted.

I'm not the only one then

 

[PikeBadger]

I'm not the only one then

Yeah, I’m often unreliable on my iphone 7. I’m sure I’ve committed many heinous drive by’s here.

 

[Mondio]

I meant to hit that thumb

 

[OldSchool101]

I came across this old article on Fox Sports. It sounds like this isn’t the first time Breeland has been a candidate at a converted Safety. He has played some at the position for Washington and it’ll be interesting to see if GB uses him deeper in the secondary.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/washington-redskins-should-consider-moving-bashaud-breeland-to-safety-121016?amp=true

 

[ls1bob]

I am pretty sure they have a good plan in place or feel good about trading HHCD because if Gute feels we are still in it he wouldn’t just let him go unless Pettine said “I feel good about plan b”

 

[pacmaniac]

HHCD was the ultimate defensive stat-padder.

 

[FaninColorado]

The Rams almost got Mack for basically a one year assassin... trade this year and then try to trade him next year. Fowler is probably a very similar case. They truly have very little salary cap and the number is only going to get worse in the next 2 years when Goff makes an extra 20 million dollars. Their window is going to be close to closing shortly with the money they have spent on Donald, Gurley, Cooks, and soon to be Goff... those 4 will account for approx 90+ million. They really have this year and next year before they need to start moving players.

Fowler is probably going to be released instead of extended at the end of the year... Unless they plan on another player on their team getting 10+M/ yr

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Reports of Tramon taking snaps at S in practice. Breeland will factor into this as well.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/20...nd-ready-to-contribute-to-new-look-secondary/

 

[swhitset]

Fat thumb, my bad. Retracted.

lol i’d say that about 1/3 of the agrees I give start out as a red x for that same reason. I’m constantly having to undo and try to hit that green check mark a second time lol.

 

[speakhands]

I hope you're right but in my opinion aside of Brice, who has struggled this season, there's not a single player on the roster best suited to line up at free safety after trading Clinton-Dix.

I was really hoping they would bring back Rollins for this reason.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I kind of go back to the Josh Sitton situation with this and Sitton was a far more talented player than HHCD in my opinion.

I was perplexed at the time the Packers decided to part ways with Sitton but the front office rightfully thought that Taylor could adequately replace him. It's a different situation with Clinton-Dix though as the first eight games should work as evidence that there isn't anyone on the roster capable of taking over for him.

But I have no reason to believe that Gutekunst doesn't have a plan and is waving a white flag on this season when we're right in the thick of the division race.

The Packers being sellers at the trade deadline might indicate a different mindset though.

My guess (that's all it is) is that that will be Brice more often than not.

Brice has already lined up at free safety on 45.7% of his snaps this season. The Packers definitely need another player at the position.

Calling it "dime" is questionable. Whitehead was playing hybrid ILB in place of Burks. Whitehead had that 96% snap count while Burks had 10%. We wouldn't call it "dime" if those snap counts were flipped, would we?

Box safety vs. hybrid ILB is a distinction without a difference is terms of player characteristics. However, I would characterize a box safety as a complement to the ILB pair where he's there for run downs or blitz or taking an ILBs coverage role if that ILB blitzes or playing man press against a TE. That not what Whitehead was doing against the Rams. He was the second ILB on nearly every down.

Whitehead played a total of 33 of his 75 defensive snaps as an inside linebacker against the Rams.

Tramon can play safety, maybe Breeland, maybe Josh Jackson. i'm guessing Tramon or Breeland right out of the box.

Tramon has played free safety for the majority of four games during his career while Breeland hasn't lined up there at all. The Packers don't find themselves in an ideal situation with either of them.

Not good use of a 1st round pick for sure. Dix has always had 4th round skills and is better suited as a box safety. Miscast here like others before him. Certainly one of Thompson’s poorer 1st round picks. Wonder what our scouts were saying about Dix prior to that draft.

Clinton-Dix was widely considered a first round talent coming out of Alabama. He has definitely performed significantly better as the average fourth round pick.

not necessarily if you pay attention to the things Dix has been criticized for.

Maybe you should pay attention to the things Clinton-Dix has done that aren't visible on the TV broadcast.

Getting along and being successfully are not the same thing. Most everyone agrees that Dix was the best safety on the roster, and it’s unfortunate that he had to be sent away, but sometimes a player’s attitude can hurt a team more than what ever positive attributes his play on the field can contribute.

There's no doubt HHCD was the best safety on the roster, a position that was already thin with him in the lineup. Therefore I don't like the move even if it improves locker room chemistry.

I am hoping we give Breeland or TW38 a look as a replacement. The way KK, JA and JJ are playing I think it would be great having another playmaker in the backend. Breeland, to me, is an ideal candidate since he's lost a step or two. He isn't afraid of contact and seems like a savvy player. Jones is a guy that obviously comes to mind but if he can't get on the field after this move, he may never!

I don't believe Breeland has lost a step but he has never played free safety. Jones isn't a fit for the position. That most likely leaves Williams to move there.

I came across this old article on Fox Sports. It sounds like this isn’t the first time Breeland has been a candidate at a converted Safety. He has played some at the position for Washington and it’ll be interesting to see if GB uses him deeper in the secondary.

Breeland has played a total of four snaps at free safety during his career.

They truly have very little salary cap and the number is only going to get worse in the next 2 years when Goff makes an extra 20 million dollars.

The Rams won't have significantly less cap space than the Packers next offseason.

I was really hoping they would bring back Rollins for this reason.

Rollins wouldn't have been a fit at free safety either.

 

[Mondio]

I was perplexed at the time the Packers decided to part ways with Sitton but the front office rightfully thought that Taylor could adequately replace him. It's a different situation with Clinton-Dix though as the first eight games should work as evidence that there isn't anyone on the roster capable of taking over for him.

It might be they have nobody capable, or it might be it was their intention to see what they could get for him all along. Which would explain HHCD's comments earlier this year as well. Just like we didn't know they had someone they felt was ready to take over Sitton's position, we might be in the same boat. But if they bench HaHa, he's not putting anything on tape for other teams to want and it's not driving up his trade value, it's only driving it down. HaHa wants a payday and out, so he continues to play at an acceptable level so he can get with a team that "wants" him because they're willing to trade for him, they'll probably be willing to pay him a bit more too.

I don't think this was a last second decision by the FO. and I don't think it had anything to do with waving a white flag too. I think they felt good about their plan, found a trade partner and executed the deal.

 

[PackAttack12]

The Packers being sellers at the trade deadline might indicate a different mindset though.

Time will tell the story.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Whitehead played a total of 33 of his 75 defensive snaps as an inside linebacker against the Rams.

Can I assume that's a PFF number? Well, that's in the eye the beholder. And when you talk about a "hybrid ILB" do you count the sanps that make him a hybrid as ILB or S?

I'll illustrate.

I looked at the Rams first 2 and last 2 series using the broadcast tape where it is easier to make out the numbers. I included in the following count a penalty play and excluded Goff's kneel down.

I come up with 22 plays, 14 with Whitehead at "ILB". On a couple of plays I couldn't find him so he was either playing high safety or they were among the 3 snaps he did not take.

So, here's the question. Do you only count ILB snaps as those where he plays straight up on or inside the OT or TE 4 yards or less off the line, the classic 3-4 alignment?

How about a play where he's 6 yards off the line over a slot who is set one step off the OT where the slot goes in motion and Whitehead stays put with Martinez the only guy in the classic ILB position? Is he an ILB or box safety containing the edge or picking up Gurley if he releases to that side? He actually looks more like a 4-3 OLB.

How about where he's a half step outside the TE up on the line, reading to release and cover or edge contain post snap with Martinez the only player in classic ILB position?

How about a play where he's six yards deep on 3rd. and 6 over the edge of the box covering the short middle zone while Martinez is doing the same thing on the other side? Dime safety or ILB?

Or unrelated to this game, how do you count a LB's snap when he gets isolated on a RB or TE split out wide? Do you count that as a S snap? Every once in a while you'll see a screw up in personnel or messed up defensive call where a LB gets stuck on a WR. Does he count as a CB for that snap? When Clinton-Dix or Brice would walk up in the box with Martinez and nobody else in the box, would you call that an ILB snap?

Dante wanted to call these distinctions "symantic" defaulting to the "S" behind Whitehead's name on the roster in characterizing it as "dime all day". But then what do you call it when Burks is doing the same thing with an "ILB" behind his name? "Symantics" kind of gets to the point, but I believe it is best viewed as an artifical and anachronistic distinction.

These Whitehead examples are "hybrid ILB" snaps, and the way the game is played today, especially in this defense on this day, there's no other way to characterize them. If one insists on ******* these snaps as either S or ILB, artifical as that may be, I would regard them as ILB snaps.

So, you plan to put a guy on the field all day as a chess piece, a hybrid ILB. Where he plays on any down depends on the down and distance, the opponent's personnel, how that personnel lines up, followed by any pre-snap defeinsive adjustment. If the Rams came out running all day with a 7 man line, PFF's 33 ILB snaps (it was PFF, right?) goes up with Whitehead more in classic ILB positioning. When they come out with some other formation he moves where he's needed.

Again, I don't know what to call this but "hybrid ILB". And again, if we must slot these snaps as ILB or S, ILB makes more sense.

Now, if the Packers have 2 or 3 safeties spread across the backfield 10 or 15 yards deep and Whitehead is one of them, thats a S snap. If he's one-on-one outside on a WR as he was on one play I reviewed, that's an S snap since there was no panic move to jump out on a guy unaccounted for. This I will grant you.

 

[HardRightEdge]

The Rams won't have significantly less cap space than the Packers next offseason.

I'm not telling you anything you don't already know but I don't want to bother finding the post you responded to.

As a general observation, one can look at a team's current cap as potential carryover and look at what their current cap obligations are for next year, but if you stop there an essential piece is missing. You have to look at their upcoming free agents, not included in next year's current cap number, and what it might cost to keep or replace in kind or replace with a needed upgrade.

I have no idea where the Rams stand on that count and am not much interested in studying it.

 

[pacmaniac]

Never forgave this clown for failing to jump on the 2-point hail mary. We're in the Super Bowl if he just jumps. Good riddance.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I was perplexed at the time the Packers decided to part ways with Sitton but the front office rightfully thought that Taylor could adequately replace him. It's a different situation with Clinton-Dix though as the first eight games should work as evidence that there isn't anyone on the roster capable of taking over for him.

It interesting you brought up Sitton. The Sitton and C-D situations have something in common. It was reported that Sitton was grousing in the locker room about entering the season without an extension. C-D expected to be elsewhere next season where it is fair to think he got a low ball offer or no offer at all.

We don't know what form or tone the locker room carping might have taken, but there is a line that can be crossed as one factor in a decision. Or it could be these players got wind of being on the trade block which led to the grousing while the Packers biding their time for an acceptable offer. We'll never know for sure, but what we do know is these players expressed displeasure and were gone shortly thereafter.

 

[OldSchool101]

The Packers being sellers at the trade deadline might indicate a different mindset though.

Captain do I have this right? Is it possible that we could net both the 4th round trade in 2019 and a possible 3rd round Comp (depending on a net FA loss) in 2020 for the HaHa departure?

 

[Dantés]

Captain do I have this right? Is it possible that we could net both the 4th round trade in 2019 and a possible 3rd round Comp (depending on a net FA loss) in 2020 for the HaHa departure?

Nope. The Redskins are the only ones who could now get a comp. pick for Haha.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Never forgave this clown for failing to jump on the 2-point hail mary. We're in the Super Bowl if he just jumps. Good riddance.

I've heard that before.

I wonder if Pittsburgh fans say the same thing about Polamalu for poor coverage on Jennings' 2 TDs in the Super Bowl?

While Polamalu may be a future HOFer while playing with a bad Achilles that day, there's a point to made about the body of work.

Isolating on one C-D play in a 4,000+ snap body of work is...I don't know what to insert here without being offensive. Never forgiving him for that rookie play suggests to me you never bothered to dispassionately consider the body of work. Or if you did, then that grudge would would have colored your assessment.

And as far as that one particular C-D play is concerned, given the mental and physical defensive and ST errors, a premature sideline celebration, and questionable defensive calls compounding at the end of that game, picking out this one play as "the difference" is a misperception. Heck, some folks even like to blame conservative offensive play call while holding the lead as the culprit, even if that's what everybody does.

 

[OldSchool101]

Nope. The Redskins are the only ones who could now get a comp. pick for Haha.

I see. Is the compensatory award pick based on which team he is with to end the season? Or After trade deadline?

 

[Dantés]

I see. Is the compensatory award pick based on which team he is with to end the season? Or After trade deadline?

The compensatory pick formula factors how many free agents a team loses and how many they gain, as well as how much said players are paid. Because Clinton-Dix will be a FA loss of the Redskins (i.e. that's the team that he would depart for free agency), he will factor into their compensatory decision, not ours.

 

[FaninColorado]

I'm not telling you anything you don't already know but I don't want to bother finding the post you responded to.

As a general observation, one can look at a team's current cap as potential carryover and look at what their current cap obligations are for next year, but if you stop there an essential piece is missing. You have to look at their upcoming free agents, not included in next year's current cap number, and what it might cost to keep or replace in kind or replace with a needed upgrade.

I have no idea where the Rams stand on that count and am not much interested in studying it.

The Rams definitely have the cap space for next year ($35 million), but there are some major pieces on the docket for that money (Suh, Joyner, Fowler, and a couple other starters). Not sure if they plan on keeping or bringing back all, some, or none of those... but they will definitely be chewing it up quickly since they have already proven these last 2 years to be a major player in the FA game.

 

[HardRightEdge]

The Rams definitely have the cap space for next year ($35 million), but there are some major pieces on the docket for that money (Suh, Joyner, Fowler, and a couple other starters). Not sure if they plan on keeping or bringing back all, some, or none of those... but they will definitely be chewing it up quickly since they have already proven these last 2 years to be a major player in the FA game.

OK. You piqued my interest. I do this stuff below because it interests me, how the other half lives, not because any "us vs. the Rams in 2019" is relevant. What is relevant is building a championship caliber roster. What the other guys do is their business.

Anyway, here's a run down on where the Rams curretly stand cap-wise for next season. You can't go by that $35 mil you see on the ususal sites and I'll demonstrate why.

First, that $35 mil does not account for the fact that their current 2019 cap cost of about $154 mil is for only 38 guys currently under contract for 2019. Even if you filled out the 53 man roster with 15 minimum salary rookies the cap cost goes up about another $7.5 mil to $161.5 mil.

Interestingly, the NFLPA salary cap page shows the Rams are currently $560,000 over the cap.

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/los-angeles-rams

This is actually not permissable between cut downs and the end of the season and I've never previously seen a negative number posted in season on this page. The league approves all contracts and will not approve one if it takes a team over the cap in-season. So there's some issue going on, maybe clerical, maybe a dispute over how a contract's arcane provisions are to be treated. Dunno. I'm going to assume zero cap carryover which is about what spotrac says with its smaller negative number.

The Rams currently have only 4 picks in the 2019 draft but could pick up a couple of 3rd. round comp picks for Watkins and Trumaine Johnson. Maybe 3rd. and 4th. TBD Figure about $1.5 mil in draft cap cost over and above the minimum salary rookies we are now swapping out assuming they are picking low in the rounds while having no second round pick. We're now up to $163 mil in minimum committments.

The Practice Squad will count about $1 mil against the cap. That bumps the committement number to $164 mil.

I assume a team is going to start a season with some cap in reserve just to cover guys going on IR. IR players count againt the cap as do their replacements. Each minimum salary rookie replacement would be about $500k needed in reserve at week 1, $250K at midseason. More if you find yourself needing a vet street FA. A minimum of $3 mil is prudent. The Rams right now have no reserve if that NFLPA number is close to right. If somebody goes to IR now they are going to have to cut an above-rookie-minumum unvested vet or some guy with meaningful per-game roster bonuses to come up with the approx. half season cost of a replacement.

Anyway, we're now up to $167 mil for the 38 players currently under contract for 2019, 6 draftees, 9 mimimum salary rookies or ex-PS guys with no accrued seasons, the PS, and an IR reserve before having signed any of their FAs or buying FA replacements.

The cap went from $167 mil in 2017 to $177 mil in 2018. Let's assume another 10 bump to $187 mil in 2019, with the Rams having no carryover.

That leaves them with $20 mil to resign, replace or upgrade any of the players going to FA, who are as follows:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/los-angeles-rams/

Now, they could cut some players after the season who yield cap saving. Cutting Talib, for example, currently on IR, would add $8 mil in cap space to the kitty. They could cut some other guys with meaningful cap savings but those guys are playing right now. If they have young studs just waiting for their turn, then that might be a partial answer. I couldn't say if they do.

That's a situation similar to the preseason discussions about whether Bulaga should be cut which would have yielded $6.3 mil in cap savings had it been done before the roster and workout bonuses kicked in. That discussion will arise again after this season with a Bulaga cut yielding $6.75 mil in cap savings. A lot depends on the "who else ya got" factor. So far, Spriggs ain't it and the developmental years are about exhausted. Maybe the Rams are in a better position to replace their FAs and cuts internally. However, that's a lot of quality and experience to be replacing off the bench.

If the Rams win a championship after going all-in they probably won't mind making some vet cuts or trades, regroup, shuffle the deck chairs, promote some young bench players, rebuild on the fly. If they don't win it all, with Goff's whopping contract looming in 2020, we presume, I'm not seeing where they will have the cap to go all-in again in 2019 looking at who's on the FA list and what they'll have to spend.

The Packers cap situation is not great, but it is better than this. On the other hand, the Packers starting point is a lower caliber roster but with a better set of draft picks.