2020 Training Camp Thread

[Deleted member 6794]

It was not as bad as I thought, but again I put the disclaimer at the bottom, my only criteria was players who actually made it to the last year of their contract. Measuring their production and finding a metric that would apply to them all would be quite the task. But there were very few if any "Micah Hydes and JC Tretters" who we lost purely because we couldn't afford to pay them and departed via Free Agency. But there were probably about 5-7 players who had no business being on this team for 4 years, but that was Thompson's approach.

In about 3 more seasons, Gute will be permanently separated from Thompson and we'll have a better sample size as to how he "GMs". I will say that we already know he isn't as tied to the hip to his selections as much as TT was. I knew Moore was a bust the moment his name popped up on the screen; a year later, gone. I'm pretty steamed at him for selecting Madison; because for him to pretty much say out the gate he wasn't playing football that year screams to me that somebody should have been able to find that out ahead of the Draft. When he finally showed up he was overwhelmed and got hurt; now he's gone too. For Looney it's just a matter of time but I don't see him on the roster Week 1. I have a sinking feeling that 3-4 selections from the 2020 draft are out the door by 2022 as well.

Once again, I think you completely overvalue day three picks while ignoring that it's extremely tough to select impact players late in the draft.

Using PFR's approximate value metric (which I understand isn't perfect but I don't have any access to better one) to rank teams based on their performance on day three of the draft starting in 2011 I found out that the Packers have actually been excellent from the fourth to the seventh round compared to other teams.

Here's the ranking for approximate value accumulated for the team that drafted those players:

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The second one lists the total approximate value created by drafted players no matter for which team:

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For those interested, their metric is explained here:

https://www.pro-football-reference....ted by PFR founder Doug,any year (since 1950).

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The talent question is interesting. I know something like the NFL top 100 isn't scientific but the Packers had 6 guys in the group - bahk, Adams, the Smiths, Jones, Rodgers. Kenny Clark somehow didn't make it which is insane. The average team will have 3 guys on the list. So the Packers have twice that. They also have young talent like Jenkins and Savage who were all rookie performers and guys like Alexander.

They have enough talent everywhere except pass catchers.

The Packers have some excellent players on their roster but there's no doubt they lack talent at some other positions.

Overall it was good enough to make it to the NFCCG last season which speaks to them having more talent than most other teams in the league.

 

[bigbubbatd]

The Packers have some excellent players on their roster but there's no doubt they lack talent at some other positions.

Overall it was good enough to make it to the NFCCG last season which speaks to them having more talent than most other teams in the league.

I agree. Honestly the biggest issue for the team is right now Rodgers is paid to be a top 3 player and he just isn't playing like that. It makes the other holes more pronounced

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I agree. Honestly the biggest issue for the team is right now Rodgers is paid to be a top 3 player and he just isn't playing like that. It makes the other holes more pronounced

I disagree, Rodgers is still an elite quarterback. The Packers lack reliable pass catchers aside of Adams resulting in the passing offense struggling though.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

Once again, I think you completely overvalue day three picks while ignoring that it's extremely tough to select impact players late in the draft.

Using PFR's approximate value metric (which I understand isn't perfect but I don't have any access to better one) to rank teams based on their performance on day three of the draft starting in 2011 I found out that the Packers have actually been excellent from the fourth to the seventh round compared to other teams.

Here's the ranking for approximate value accumulated for the team that drafted those players:

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

The second one lists the total approximate value created by drafted players no matter for which team:

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

For those interested, their metric is explained here:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/index37a8.html#:~:text=Created by PFR founder Doug,any year (since 1950).

That's a good metric but it doesn't tell the whole story, just like neither does my "tongue-in-cheek" analysis.

Why are we littered with holes then? We've got holes at WR, TE, OL, ILB, DL, and CB. Now we could shore up all those with two good offseasons, maybe even one but just when we think this team is on the right track, they do something off kilter and before long more holes pop up. I'm betting by the time WR & TE is shored up Rodgers will be retired, and we better PRAY Love is who they think he is.

 

[bigbubbatd]

I disagree, Rodgers is still an elite quarterback. The Packers lack reliable pass catchers aside of Adams resulting in the passing offense struggling though.

I agree we lack pass catchers. I think it is a two part problem. One the pass catchers and the other Rodgers being very good but not elite (but being paid as elite). Did you feel like he looked elite while watching him last year?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

That's a good metric but it doesn't tell the whole story, just like neither does my "tongue-in-cheek" analysis.

I'm sorry but it's definitely much more informative to compare the Packers' performance on day three of the draft to other teams in the league based on a relatively objective metric than your subjective claim without providing any data compared to the rest of the league.

Why are we littered with holes then? We've got holes at WR, TE, OL, ILB, DL, and CB.

The problem being that the Packers haven't been nearly as good on the first two days of the draft over the past 10 years. In addition Thompson's reluctance to use free agency didn't help matters.

I agree we lack pass catchers. I think it is a two part problem. One the pass catchers and the other Rodgers being very good but not elite (but being paid as elite). Did you feel like he looked elite while watching him last year?

Rodgers definitely still has all the talent in the world to be an elite quarterback. Unfortunately with a lack of talent at pass catchers I don't expect him to put up numbers showcasing it this season either.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

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[Sunshinepacker]

Going to be interesting to see which TEs get most snaps in practice.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

Lewis and Tonyan as the starting TEs in 12 personnel is something as well.

That 2-5-4 looks to be the new base defense to me. Gute didn't address DL in the Draft so here we are.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Lewis and Tonyan as the starting TEs in 12 personnel is something as well.

That 2-5-4 looks to be the new base defense to me. Gute didn't address DL in the Draft so here we are.

Tonyan is a better blocker than Sternberger. That Tonyan is out there on the opening run set of camp doesn't surprise me. Deguara's head is probably spinning right about now.

Is it a 2-5-4? Typing those numbers on a page does not provide for much precision. Are you sure Z. isn't stepping up into a DE position as we saw him do with some frequency last year? That would make it a hybrid 3-4-4 base look appropriate to an initial snap. Or is it a 4-3 under that both Capers and Pettine have run?

Once you look past the numbers on the jerseys and positional designations on the roster sheet to what the roles are on a particular play (Z., Greene), the game starts looking a little different.

Pettine already banged you over the head since the day Gary was drafted that he planned to move Z. inside, and maybe eventually Gary, with Z. P. And Gary on the field together. He did that already last year. He wants to do it more. This is the time to find out if Gary has a good enough grasp of what's going on to use it more. There must be high confidence Gary is up to the task--no DL drafted. I'm not sure what's plan B if Gary has not progressed by opening day other than a more predictable base look.

 

[HardRightEdge]

As far as Wilde's comment that "Raven Greene (24) and Chandon Sullivan (39) are the extra DBs in No. 1 dime" I would take that mean Green is in an ILB position (that hybrid-ILB thing). Some people like to call that position "dime linebacker" which is an oxymoron, confuses the matter.

The overall pictures is that guys who have been around are getting first team reps. That makes sense if you're trying to install an offense/defense which in this case is applying changes to what was done last year. It's hard to install a change with guys who don't know the thing that is changed.

That may change as things go along. However, three weeks is not a lot of time for newcomers to make a competitive bid. We'll see. That right side of the O-Line might not stick.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I guess the big news on Day 1 of camp is A.J. Dillon's gams. LaFluer sounds transfixed. We'll have to wait and see what he can actually do with them.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Lewis and Tonyan as the starting TEs in 12 personnel is something as well.

With a lack of talent at the tight end position as well I highly doubt the Packers will have two of them one the field for a significant amount of snaps.

 

[HardRightEdge]

With a lack of talent at the tight end position as well I highly doubt the Packers will have two of them one the field for a significant amount of snaps.

Well, that depends on who you want to call a TE. As you may have noticed, I'm of a mind to look at a guy's role on a particular play rather than his jersey number or the position designation on the roster sheet.

LaFleur recently said he wants to use Deguara like the 49ers use Juszcyk. Without getting into what LaFleur is actually communicating with that bizarre copycat statement (does he mean it, is he justifying the pick for public consumption, is it misdirection for opponent consumption?), it's worth noting Juszcyk played predominantly in the backfield on a 37% offensive snap count.

If LaFluer means it, that makes Deguara a FB, not a TE regardless of what the roster sheet says. I don't know if he could get up to that Jusczyk snap count as a rookie with only 3 weeks of camp, but it's likely to be somethin' somethin' as a FB, maybe some snaps at TE.

We've of course noticed the WR situation--no upgrades, Funchess bailing out, last season's "big slot" approach. Perhaps Sternberger will be that big slot. When you put a TE in the slot, he's a slot. Put him out wide, he's a wideout.

Of course in 49er copycat mode, or looking back to LaFluer's Titan offense, you could see 3 "tight ends" on the field more than we've been accustomed, whether that's a seven man line with that fullback, or a six man line with that FB and Sternberger in the slot. There are many possibilities and I'll miss the preseason to get a feel for where this is heading.

 

[HardRightEdge]

When you start looking at possible rookie contributions, or even the effectiveness early on of the vet FA signings, we're already at 8/16 without a padded practive until sometime next week when we concern ourselves with something besides Dillon's legs .

The roster cut down date is Sept 5th. at which point the depth chart is set and they wheel into Week 1 game planning. That's all of about 2 1/2 weeks max of real practice before setting the depth chart, not a lot of full contact, while full contact in practice isn't really that in 11-on-11's (something like Pro Bowl tackling ), with no scrimmages and no preseason.

That's a high bar for new guys to clear, particularly rookies.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

Tonyan is a better blocker than Sternberger. That Tonyan is out there on the opening run set of camp doesn't surprise me. Deguara's head is probably spinning right about now.

I don't dispute that. But what I wonder is has the 12 formation turned into an exclusive power zone/gap scheme with a wrinkle of play action?

Is it a 2-5-4? Typing those numbers on a page does not provide for much precision. Are you sure Z. isn't stepping up into a DE position as we saw him do with some frequency last year? That would make it a hybrid 3-4-4 base look appropriate to an initial snap. Or is it a 4-3 under that both Capers and Pettine have run?

Once you look past the numbers on the jerseys and positional designations on the roster sheet to what the roles are on a particular play (Z., Greene), the game starts looking a little different.

I think it depends on who is lined up. I'm not opposed to a 2-5-4 simply because I believe we just don't have the talent otherwise up front to trot out a traditional 3 or 4 man front. (Without going on a tangent, I'd have supported Mike Daniels and Kenny Clark up front in a similar formation)

Pettine needs to find something that works, so trying to get his best athletes out there against an opposing OL who should have their hands full with Clark and Gary/Z is something in the right direction if you ask me.

Pettine already banged you over the head since the day Gary was drafted that he planned to move Z. inside, and maybe eventually Gary, with Z. P. And Gary on the field together. He did that already last year. He wants to do it more. This is the time to find out if Gary has a good enough grasp of what's going on to use it more. There must be high confidence Gary is up to the task--no DL drafted. I'm not sure what's plan B if Gary has not progressed by opening day other than a more predictable base look.

Gary should feel at home down on the line. I believe he's put in the work during the offseason to make a difference. The front office and coaching staff have put this opportunity out there for him to take advantage of and I don't see him squandering it.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I don't dispute that. But what I wonder is has the 12 formation turned into an exclusive power zone/gap scheme with a wrinkle of play action?

You mean "exclusive" as in all the time? Of course not. Primarily? Not that either.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

It's hard to know because while Adams is out there....Lewis and Tonyan aren't known as our prolific pass catchers. Can it work? Absolutely, but Lewis' and Tonyan's snaps would go way up. But seeing as we lost Jimmy G, that's not entirely out of the question.

But if we sub out Lewis for anyone to pass, teams will key in on that most likely.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

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[Favre>Rodgers259]

Seems like Gute and LeFleur are essentially "manufacturing" another WR instead of drafting one.

For the record, I hope Begelton turns out to be a gem, I hope Kumerow can step up in the slot. I hope MVS figures out how to be consistent, and I hope Fulgham and Taylor....well they do something.

But they could've pushed the easy button and did this:

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Yea, I said it.

 

[HardRightEdge]

But they could've pushed the easy button and did this:

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Yea, I said it.

I wish you hadn't.

 

[tynimiller]

Honestly, a guy like Antonio Brown or Josh Gordon are fellas fitting us more if we are going to kick the tires on iffy situation guys.

 

[gopkrs]

Once again, I think you completely overvalue day three picks while ignoring that it's extremely tough to select impact players late in the draft.

Football teams are not made by impact players alone. 3rd day picks are important because it boosts the overall quality of your club. Including special teams and backups. And if you are using 3rd day picks for backups then you are more or less stuck with what you chose while the next year you try and shore up other positions with 3rd day picks. Bunches of bad 3rd day picks leave your team lacking while teams that draft well there stay good.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Honestly, a guy like Antonio Brown or Josh Gordon are fellas fitting us more if we are going to kick the tires on iffy situation guys.

If Brown being Brown and Gordon being Gordon are not enough reasons to steer clear, how about Brown being suspended for the first 8 games and Gordon suspended indefinitely?

Dez Bryant. What can we say? He's not suspended so he has that going for him. He started slipping after his 2015 foot and ankle surgery, hasn't played since 2017, and is coming up on age 32. Players who retire then try to come back don't fare too well. Sitting out two years makes it worse.