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Wow, Packer fans, worst call I've ever seen

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Reverend Conehead, Sep 25, 2012.

  1. hawkfan

    hawkfan Cheesehead

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    ExpatPacker, look at the gif I posted to start. It supports and backs my entire train of thinking. If you don't agree that it is at the same time, then I won't be able to convince you otherwise.
     
  2. ExpatPacker

    ExpatPacker Cheesehead

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    I see where you're coming from, but what I also see is that there is movement not just from Tate's right hand, which is obvious, but also with his left in which he is trying to adjust his hand to secure the ball away from Jennings. His left hand might have had constant contact with the ball, but I don't see that the ball was ever securely in his left hand.
     
  3. hawkfan

    hawkfan Cheesehead

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    Thanks ExpatPacker, I'm not really trying to convince you guys that it is not a BOGUS call. In reality, I agree it is total BS. I would be livid if it was the other way around. At the same time though, I believe it IS a touchdown with the rules the way they are.

    That said, that rule is total bullshit. Jennings made the catch, Tate tagged along the whole way and got just enough that by rule it's his. Honestly, some of these rules need to a) be less ambiguous and b) make ******* sense for whatever situation occurs in the game.

    The rules need to be changed so that plays like this are an interception because this should have been one.
     
  4. hawkfan

    hawkfan Cheesehead

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    Just to follow up, there is a difference between should be and is. Unfortunately in this one it should have been, but isn't an interception.
     
  5. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    The above post is correct. There is no problem with the rules. Jennings caught the ball first, had both feet on the ground before Tate reach in. You are smoking dope Hawk fan.

    Simultaneous possession, eh?
    Attached Files:

    • [​IMG]
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. hawkfan

    hawkfan Cheesehead

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    13 Times Champs, the 2 feet on the ground thing isn't true. Further, in terms of dual possession, it's the control point that matters. The rule says that Tate cant get joint control after Jennings has control. My argument is that Tates left hand grants him marginal control from the moment that Jennings hands touch the ball. If that is the case, it's dual possession and a Seahawks touchdown.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    And it clearly shows Jennings had control. Marginal control is not in the rule book.
     
  8. hawkfan

    hawkfan Cheesehead

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    The roll away after they are on the ground doesn't matter as long as one of tates hands remain on the ball and the ball never touches the ground until the end of the play because dual possession had already occurred. The play was ruled dead (whistle blown) prior to Jennings using leverage to get a better position on the ball.
     
  9. hawkfan

    hawkfan Cheesehead

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    Marginal control, no matter how you look at it is still control. Control of any kind is enough to constitute dual possession as long as it is not ruled an incomplete pass.
     
  10. hawkfan

    hawkfan Cheesehead

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    That control does have to remain throughout the process of the catch. Tate had at a minimum marginal control all the way until the whistle blew.
     
  11. ARod

    ARod Cheesehead

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    I think it's been said now that simply having a hand on the ball does not constitute control. Tate has no control of the football whatsoever, which is obvious by his inability to pull the ball into his chest like Jennings did, because Jennings actually had control.
     
  12. hawkfan

    hawkfan Cheesehead

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    Arod, with that argument, your position is perfectly logical. I completely concede that if you believe that the left hand constitutes zero control that it should be an interception.
     
  13. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Wrong. Here is the rule. See anything in there about marginal control first of all? But in order for it to be simultaneous possession both have to maintain joint possesion all the way through. At the very end Jennings is the one that had possession on the ground. Tate did not maintain possession throughout. You can see Jennings catch the ball and Tate's hand come in afterwards. So Tate came in afterwards and then Jennings had it on the ground. Tate failed on both points to maintain possession throughout.

    Rules governing this:
    Applicable rules to the play are as follows:
    A player (or players) jumping in the air has not legally gained possession of the ball until he satisfies the elements of a catch listed here.
    Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3 of the NFL Rule Book defines a catch:
    A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:
    (a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
    (b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
    (c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).
    When a player (or players) is going to the ground in the attempt to catch a pass, Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 1 states:
    Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.
    Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 states:
    Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.
     
  14. ARod

    ARod Cheesehead

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    I think it's hard to say he has control, because having control assume's some ability to manipulate the ball, whether it's pulling it in to your chest or yanking it out of the hands of an opponent, neither of which Tate had the ability to do.

    I also think this is all a moot point, since the NFL blatantly stated the game should have ended with Tates Offensive PI. Either way, Tate (along with the rest of the hawks) should have ended up on the losing side of that play.
     
  15. hawkfan

    hawkfan Cheesehead

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    13 times champions, Tate had dual possession through him being on the ground. *shrug* cant help it if you see it a different way.

    ARod, I really appreciate you at least taking into account the small points I've been trying to point out. The offensive PI was blatant and should have been called. The game should have ended with you guys the victor because of offensive PI. The replacement ref's screwed the pooch missing that call. That said, offensive PI and Defensive PI is missed and not called all the time and has changed the outcome of MANY games with the regular officials.

    The entire game was called horribly though. The RTP was BS, the PI should have been on Rice, the Chancellor PI shouldn't have been PI, the Rogers first down should have been measured after a re-spot, etc., etc. The game was officiated HORRIBLY, but I believe that last play was by rule a touchdown for Seattle. Regardless of whether it should have been an interception or not.
     
  16. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    I'm seeing it like most of America outside of Seattle.
     
  17. hawkfan

    hawkfan Cheesehead

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    13 times champs, 2 Jennings hands, 2 Tate hands.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    That is true as well. Funny how the NFL soft pedaled that aspect in their statement.
     
  19. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Where is the second hand first of all? Are you ignoring the point that a receiver can't come in through the process and obtain control? Read the rule again. Next you won't see Tate pushing off. :rolleyes:
     
  20. hawkfan

    hawkfan Cheesehead

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    13 Time champion, My argument all along is that the left hand that is on the ball from the MOMENT that Jennings hands are on the ball constitute some control, enough to allow for him to fight for more. I've already said, if I didn't believe that to be the case, I would not believe it was a touchdown. As for the two hands, they are fairly obvious. Jennings left hand is over the top, his right forearm is cradling the ball, Underneath there are 2 hands (Tates). One up by the point from over the top of Jennings right arm (Tates right arm) the other is underneath cupping the ball (Tates left hand). This picture is taken at almost the exact same moment as your "wheres the control" photo that you posted and went viral on twitter last night.
     
  21. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Jennings caught the ball then Tates hand came in afterwards. He didn't establish any control ever but his hand was not on the ball the moment jennings caught it. That came later. Did Tate push off btw?
    Read the part that agrees with my point that Tate didn't initially have contact with the ball.
    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8422905/the-nfl-needs-end-referee-lockout-immediately

    Here it is for you:

    "By now, you've probably seen the play. Although you can try to make a case that Packers defensive back M.D. Jennings never had sole possession of the ball, a decision that would make the play a simultaneous possession between Jennings and Seahawks wideout Golden Tate and, by rule, award the ball (and touchdown) to the Seahawks, the vast majority of the evidence available suggests that Jennings had possession of the ball before Tate was able to get his hands on it and establish simultaneous possession. In that scenario, the ball belongs to the Packers."
     
  22. hawkfan

    hawkfan Cheesehead

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    I'll leave you guys alone and stop stirring the pot. Thanks again ARod for at least considering my points.
     
  23. ARod

    ARod Cheesehead

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    Any time! I'm not exactly mad at the Seahawks for the win. I mean, really it's not their fault the officiating was so poor, but I don't condone their behavior after the fact. It's a shame the game had to end like it did. I feel pretty confident saying it would've been a much better, more evenly matched game had we had regular officials in there.
     
  24. Jordyruns

    Jordyruns Cheesehead

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    You seem to use the whole "the fighting for the ball once on the ground doesn't count" unless it is in your favor because this picture is just that. Show me a picture or video where he has control as early as Jennings. Having a hand on the ball is not control either because then like 4 players in that group had control of the ball at some point which is not true at all.
     
  25. HansGruber

    HansGruber Cheesehead

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    The Pack has 13 games left to prove themselves.

    But I'm sure when they fail to reach the playoffs this season, we'll all get to listen to their "classy" fans whine about how they got jobbed in Week 3 and nothing about the fact that their offense just can't seem to get it done.

    Waaaaaaahhhhh.... Waaaaaahhhhhh!!
     
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