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Would Rodgers ever leave the pocket if...

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by ColtsSeahawks, Nov 4, 2009.

  1. ColtsSeahawks

    ColtsSeahawks Cheesehead

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    The O line was better..... Its no secret that the Pack's O line is IMO pretty much the big reason this team is not undefeated right now... In both games against Minnesota he took at least 6 sacks or more ?? My question is if Aaron Rodgers had an O line like the Colts or Dallas would he still leave the pocket as much as he does, or would he be more of a pocket passer?

    I know he has fast legs and likes to use him, but he is not a Tony Romo where he has to leave the pocket to be very effective.... He is extremely accurate in the pocket, probably just as accurate as Peyton Manning... We will never know because he gets 5 times more pressure then Peyton ever gets and has a total of 2 seconds sometimes to get rid of the ball... I like Aaron Rodgers because he leaves the pocket so frequently and is fun to watch, he is multi talented lol :)
     
  2. Quientus

    Quientus Oenophile

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    Won't really matter ...

    - At one point during the last game Rodgers had an astounding 6,5 seconds in the pocket ... - That's more than an "eternity" in todays NFL ...

    The huge difference right now seems to be that Rodgers *most* of the time, is looking for the "purely" open receiver before throwing ... - At this point it doesn't seem like he is able to "risk it" when the game is at stake ...

    That's why I don't believe it would make much of a difference at this point ... Not untill his mind and pocket awareness changes ...

    Romo, Flacco, Ryan isn't holding back, when the game is on the line ... - But Rodgers is ... *IF* Rodgers were behind, say the Colt's oline ... more so often than not ... people would be seeing the same ... Rather than risking an interception or throwing it away, Rodgers seems to prefer to take the sack ...

    Case in point ... - going from 2007 (13-3) to 2008 (6-10). In 2008 the Packers lost 7 games with less than a scores difference ...
     
  3. Hauschild

    Hauschild Cheesehead

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    Rodgers tends to look long first and then underneath. In the WCO, a QB normally knows where the ball is going to go pre-snap. Rodgers tends not to "lead" his receivers and "throw them open". If said receivers are not already open, he has a difficult time pulling the trigger and this is how 35% of the sacks occur. Rodgers had more than a few opportunities where he had more than 6 seconds of protection, but his indecisiveness led to sacks.

    Like I've stated numerous times before: If you give Rodgers time AND he's got at least one receiver open, he's gold. Throw in some adversity and the need for improvisation and you might as well look for another type of QB.

    This is what is also somewhat surprising about TT not addressing the O-line more effectively - to aid a bit more. Rodgers having trouble "leading receivers" and "throwing them open" was well documented in his scouting report coming out of college. Personally, I think it might be a trait that is difficult to ever change, but with the right system and talent in place, it can be made to be almost moot.
     
  4. angryguy77

    angryguy77 Cheesehead

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    Saying that they would be undefeated is a little over the top. This team has many more holes than just th oline.
     
  5. A12ROD903

    A12ROD903 Cheesehead

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    How do you figure it wont really matter?

    Rodgers left the pocket numerous times and ran for 4 TD's last year. Thats 4 sacks he didnt take and was able to turn probably nothing into 6 points. If Rodgers gets out of the pocket, hes a running threat. Rodgers had plenty of opportunities to run up field against the vikes, but choose to try and stay behind some protection or a "pocket" and get sacked.
     
  6. Hauschild

    Hauschild Cheesehead

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    I believe what he's trying to get across is that if Rodgers had 6 seconds to throw on EVERY attempt, chances are every attempt would not include one in which EVERY receiver was open. This is where Rodgers runs into problems because he cannot "anticipate" and then "fabricate".
     
  7. Quientus

    Quientus Oenophile

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    Good quarterbacks are able to adapt to the game situation ... - And make changes to their "own" play accordingly ...

    So far Rodgers is lacking that "key-ingredient" ... When the game is on the line - Every quarterback has to risk it and throw it where the receivers are able to make a play ... So far, it would seem that unless the receivers are wide open (most the time), Rodgers prefers to "wait" and hold on to the ball, rather than throw it or throw it away ...

    That is the main reason why I don't see Rodgers is as good a quarterback as his stats would indicate ...

    Am I saying that Rodgers should just throw it and "pray" ? No, but I do think he should try to throw it so his receivers can make plays more often ... That includes "risky" throws as well ... Because everyone has already seen that the Wide Receivers Corps in Green Bay is able to make plays as well ... only at this point, it doesn't look like they are getting alot of chances to do this ...
     
  8. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Where did the 6.5 secs come from?
     
  9. Hauschild

    Hauschild Cheesehead

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    Just one example from this past week. I think the Journal Sentinel made a reference to it.

    I think a good example of throwing a receiver open is Brett Favre to Greg Lewis to beat San Fran in the final seconds. As an NFL QB, you've gotta be able to "anticipate", sometimes at the most crucial of times.
     
  10. Quientus

    Quientus Oenophile

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    I would think you would know heh, you were at the game :) ...



    Another would be the throw to Percy Harvin that made 3 Packer players "bump" into each other ... - Would Rodgers have "risked" that throw if coming from behind ? ... Not likely ...
     
  11. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    I don't think it's a matter of thrust.

    I don't remember if it was Hauschild who said it, but a better OL would make a world of difference. That's not to say it's not Rodgers fault: he's not ready, and that became clear last game.

    That's not to be mistaken with him being a bad QB, or with him never being able to become more clutch. Does anybody remember how Favre played in his 2nd year? He was throwing interceptions by galore.

    He's not ready yet. He'll hold the ball to long, and he'll make some great drives. If we had a running game, he would be winning a lot of games for us. But as it's not the case, right now, he isn't...
     
  12. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I am pretty sure 6.5 is not correct...I have it on dvr I should go over it
     
  13. Quientus

    Quientus Oenophile

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    I found it ...

    Click Here


    - Granted it wasn't 6,5 seconds ... it was 6,46 seconds ... Sorry for rounding up ... >.<

    And that is also (partly) why I don't get why so many people are railing on about it's *only* the offensive line ... and that if fixing that everything will be ok ... - I agree that the offensive line could use some improvement, however so could almost every other nfl offensive line ...

    Whenever an offensive line is able to allow more than 4 seconds of pocket time, I would say, then they are doing what they are supposed to be doing quite well ...
     
  14. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    no I thought you meant on average was 6.5 LOL
     
  15. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Rodgers had the opportunity to at least tie the game , in a 2nd and 2, and he couldn't. He was sacked. Then he had the opportunity again, and again, was sacked. He failed in this game, and it wasn't all in the line. This game, he was to blame. He doesn't deserve the biggest part of the blame, as it was mostly on the passing defense and running game (actually, it was most on ST play.), but he deserves the blame, DESPITE the OL issue.
     
  16. Hauschild

    Hauschild Cheesehead

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    I think many of you guys still don't understand the inherent differences between Favre and Rodgers and because of this, there are going to be more instances where you find yourselves disappointed in a Packers loss.

    Rodgers can't improvise. His collegiate scouting report warned of this. Is it a big deal? I'm saying it is during those instances when games are close and opposing defenses are somewhat stingy. How often will that happen? Not too often this year because half the teams Green Bay plays are awful.

    Every QB has flaws, though.
     
  17. ColtsSeahawks

    ColtsSeahawks Cheesehead

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    Ya I agree with you on this to some point. I dont think Rodgers holds on to the ball near as long as some people make out though.... He usually has about 3 seconds in the pocket to make a decision and then pressure gets to him and then he will get out of the pocket or scramble which takes another 2 seconds and then he will make a play.

    If you watch Peyton Manning he usually has a full four or 5 seconds to throw the ball. Half the time he doesnt need it and will get rid of the ball in 2 seconds but Rodgers can make quick decisions as well. Rodgers does hold on to the ball sometimes a bit to long, but that is not always a bad thing... Big Ben does it to and that has worked out pretty well for him. Green Bay has lost 3 very close games to two tough teams.. Minnesota has an extremely tough defense.

    If you watched the game Sunday when the Colts played San Fran... Peyton was over throwing receivers, under throwing, and just making poor decisions... Also didnt lead them into the end zone one single time. He had pressure in his face and when he had to get rid of the ball with in 2 seconds it wasnt pretty.

    I still think if Aaron Rodgers didnt have to leave the pocket so often, and had more time to throw the ball they would have beaten Minnesota at least once this year and beaten the Bengals.
     
  18. Quientus

    Quientus Oenophile

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    3 Seconds by all accounts *should* be enough ... Every game so far ... including last season ... - There have been plenty of opportunities to either throw the ball away or use the check down ...

    To think that *Any* Franchise will EVER compile an offensive line that will be consistently able to protect the quarterback for more than that game in and game out is wishful thinking ...



    Peyton Manning is far better at reading the line than Rodgers is ... Also ... There has not been any quarterback (that I can remember) that audibles as much as Peyton Manning ... - Yet despite all Mannings abilities and experience, Manning still has 2 losing seasons ... compared to Favres single one ... - in about half the time span Favre has played ...

    And as for "Big Ben" ... "Big Ben" has more success because he is by far much harder to sack (even when the pocket collapses) than Rodgers, partly because of "Big Ben's" size as well ...



    Still, Manning, again, is far better of reading the packages and alter the play accordingly (in most circumstances) ... Granted Rodgers *may* learn to do this, however ... - At this point I don't think that will be likely ... Rodgers most likely will become better, but not nearly as good as either Favre nor Manning at this ...



    How much time does he need ? - Atleast 2 times in Sundays game he had more than 5 seconds to get the ball away or thrown away ... The second time even as much as 6,46 seconds ... - Yet still got sacked for a loss ...
     
  19. Skol guy

    Skol guy Cheesehead

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    Cut out half the penaltys in the first game and you win that one I would say. But it is what is so very little solace what could of been much like Minnesota gaining 200 yards more in loss to steelers. I think they played well as did most of the country but in the end it goes down as a L.
     
  20. ColtsSeahawks

    ColtsSeahawks Cheesehead

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    You do make some very good points and for the most part I do agree with... Your right Peyton is excellent at reading defenses, that is what has made him so great over the years... But he was not always great at doing this... Its only Rodgers second year and he will learn over time. Go back to Peyton's 2000 season when the team went 10-6 after a 13-3 season. Rodgers can easily take this team to a 10-6 seasont this year. Your right 3 seconds is enough, but sometimes receivers are just not open... 2 of the 3 sacks Rodgers had by Jared allen he had no more then 2 and a half seconds to get rid of the ball especially the first one.

    This year so far Rodgers seems to hold on to the ball more then he should only against Minnesota... Not sure why... But he got rid of the ball fast and made plays against the Bengals, and Browns. He is still young, and will learn hopefully. But for the most part I do agree with what you say, but there was to many times in that game Rodgers had 2 seconds or less to get rid of the ball before he had to scramble or get out of the pocket. Minnesota is not a team you want to take risks and force a pass... Although I do agree if you cant get rid of the ball in 6 seconds that is sad.. But he doesnt do that very often. Every QB does it from time to time... Hell Hasselbeck has been a master of that all year. Watch the Cowboys game.
     
  21. Quientus

    Quientus Oenophile

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    The reason why I postulate that Rodgers is more to blame than the offensive line is because, when Jared wasn't covered, it took 1,5 seconds for Allen to get to Rodgers ...

    Average time in the pocket provided by the Packers offensive line has been well beyond 3+ seconds ...

    So even if the pocket collapses after 2+ seconds, Rodgers, by all accounts *should* still be able to either run away (scramble, which he is certainly cabable of ...), use his check-downs (some how he just doesn't see them, even though his check downs almost all the time are no further than 2 yards away) ... or last, throw the ball away ...
    As for the Seahawks offensive line ... - well, this season that line is just plain atrocious ... compared to that ... the Packers offensive line is a dream ...

    I genuinely have concerns regarding Rodgers health ... when the Packers have to face Dallas, Baltimore and the Steelers (with the games against the Steelers being away ...).

    So far ... the only "quality" team the Packers have faced so far this season, besides the Vikings have been the Bengals ... - So I find it abit difficult to judge the overall play against those other teams (they have won against) ... - Granted the Bears haven't exactly been performing, however, divisional games are always more "intense" than other non division games ...
     
  22. ColtsSeahawks

    ColtsSeahawks Cheesehead

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    Ya good point. I still think Rodgers will adapt and learn from his mistakes... They should beat Tampa pretty bad and hopefully that will give them confidence playing Dallas. The games they have lost have been so close.... I am confident they can beat Dallas as Dallas is super hot and cold. I think Rodgers even if he hangs on to the ball to long is much better then Romo.

    Does Rodgers say he hangs on to the ball longer then he should?? As long as he is willing to learn from his mistakes its all good.. Its when a qb has no idea what they are doing wrong is when mistakes start to happen.. Although Rodgers has been pretty damn good this year so its hard to bash the guy to much.
     
  23. Quientus

    Quientus Oenophile

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    Yes, he has said that in several interviews, however, in those same interviews he has also said, he won't change his style of play ... - And that should cause some concerns ...

    As for Romo ... - Romo has been far more consistent overall than Rodgers ... and the players have had "similar" career starts in terms of how they came to play ... - Yet the only singular reason as to why Romo has been slammed so much in the media is because the Cowboys haven't won a play off game with Romo at the helm ... in the meanwhile ... the Packers have failed to reach the play-offs at all with Rodgers ...

    At this point ... I still think if we compare Romo and Rodgers ... then Romo is better quarterback of the two ...
     
  24. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    The reason that Romo is slammed more by the media, and I have already discussed this with you, is that he had a better Running game and better Defense than Rodgers had. Also, he had T.O. and witten.

    The Cowboys roster was vastly considered to be one of the best in the league both in 07 and 08, while the Packers, not so much.
     
  25. ThinkICare

    ThinkICare Cheesehead

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    Plus, Romo has played twice as long then Rodgers too.
     

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