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Why James Campen must leave

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by NYPacker, Feb 14, 2010.

  1. NYPacker

    NYPacker Cheesehead

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    So with the special teams rankings out today a lot of people have been overlooking another deficiency in our coaching staff. I don't believe Campen has had any success with our o-line and he certainly should not be given the chance to continue. His only good product has been Josh Sitton but the rest of his disciples have been everything short of spectacular. Now I know everyone will throw the ideal "TT didn't draft great lineman" or "TT hasn't address the o-line in the first round or FA" in the last couple of years but here is my response to that, does he have to spend millions on an o-lineman? Does he really need to spend a first rounder year in and year out like the jets to build a quality o-line? When you look at some teams with strong o-lines( Giants, Eagles, Cowboys, Patriots) most of them do not have a single lineman drafted in the first round, why is that? It's because these teams rely on their coaching staff to produce results with what they have.
     
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  2. AllouezPackerFan

    AllouezPackerFan Section 121 Row 47

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    I don't think he should be fired. On the contrary I think our O-Line over-achieved after the loss to the Buccaneers. The play turned around, theres no denying that. Also there isn't a lot of talent in that line. Clifton and Tauscher were hurt a lot. TJ Lang was a rookie. I think he did a good job with what we had at the position.
     
  3. NYPacker

    NYPacker Cheesehead

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    I'm not doubting that Campen has done some good things with the line but there are tons of ways that it could be improved. The fact that we still have to rely on Clifton and Tauscher is such a joke because these are products that Campen really had nothing to do with.
     
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  4. AllouezPackerFan

    AllouezPackerFan Section 121 Row 47

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    Right. The fact that we have to rely on them isn't his fault though. Darren Colledge is just flat out bad. TJ Lang is undersized IMO. Scott Wells is as average as he as ever been. The fact of the matter, to me, is that we need to upgrade at the player level.
     
  5. DILLIGAFF

    DILLIGAFF Cheesehead

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    There are a few ways to build an O-line, you forgot to mention the Colts, who have nobody drafted in the the 3rd round or higher starting for them. But much like the teams you mentioned above have dealt in free agency to fill holes on proven serviceable lineman who have gotten their growing pains and learning curves on other teams. So these teams have a mixture of drafted talent combined with free agents (at least 2 or 3 years in the league) to mold into a serviceable O-line.

    Unlike TT, he is going on his draft picks alone, ignoring free agents that have potential and have at least 2 or 3 years under their belts. If you limit yourself like TT does, you better be spot on in the draft, and have enough veteran talent to bring along the rookies. Our veteran talent are 2 old and injured tackles, backed by unproven rookies and 1 to 2 year guys who have yet to prove themselves.

    Last year going into the season we needed one more proven tackle with at least 3 to 4 years in the league that has started at least 16 games. Then you can bring along the likes of a Barbre/Lang/Spitz/Breno.

    To teach and learn on the Monday night stage against the likes of Jerrad Allen will cause you problems.

    This way of building needs to be addressed before you start the coaching questions.
     
  6. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    Is it too late to address the coaches at this point? LOL. Many of us have seen for a long time the ineffectiveness of the O-line. You can only describe as an act of desperation to completely flip your line in an offseason. I only hope that not replacing Campen sooner doesn't cost too many more of Rodgers prime years. Darn McCarthy and his loyalty :(
     
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  7. Dan115

    Dan115 Cheesehead

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    Too late to make a move this year.
     
  8. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    I didn't mean literally this season. Just that is it too late to bring it up as noted this was an argument a poster had used regarding this earlier in the thread. If you read the posts from 3 years ago, you were seeing the same things and nothing has really changed much in production since then regarding the line. We have injuries but so do other teams. Campen results have proven to be NOT good.
     
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  9. Dan115

    Dan115 Cheesehead

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    Fine, nothing is going to happen for awhile. A lot of ball yet to be played. Can follow up on this in a few months.
     
  10. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    A lot of ball has yet to be played, but no need to sweep a glaring weakness under the rug. More than warranted to discuss the ineffectiveness of a coach. More than ample evidence has presented itself on the field over the last several seasons to paint a picture for James Campen. As the original poster advocated for, he should probably have been gone by now.
     
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  11. Dan115

    Dan115 Cheesehead

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    Three years latter Campen is still with the Packers. I am sure you can discuss fantasy moves . Campen and the Packers have a lot of things to work on before the first game. Campen will be given all year to improve the team. Do not get me wrong I did not like the O line last night either. But I will expect big improvement before the 9 er game.
     
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  12. PackFanNChiTown

    PackFanNChiTown Bear Fan's Bane

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    Nothing worse than to read the first 2-3 posts in a thread only to realize they're from three years ago because someone resurrected a necro thread. :poop:
     
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  13. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    On the contrary PackFanNChiTown I think the irony of the timing of the first five posts on this thread is telling and humorous: February 2010 … let’s see … what was in store for the Packers in the upcoming season? Considering the motive for resurrecting this thread :D

    We’ve been over this a lot and IMO we fans just don’t know enough to assign blame regarding the failings of the OL. Aside from McCarthy’s keeping him on, the candidates are Campen’s coaching of the OL, Thompson’s acquisition of talent for the OL, McCarthy’s decision to install the ZBS and sticking with it, and bad luck with injuries (and I say bad luck because while Thompson can be blamed for drafting injury-prone Justin Harrell, the same can’t be said for Sherrod or Bulaga). Thinking replacing Campen fixes all the problems IMO is simplistic and unrealistic.
    No, you can “only” describe a switch like that in-season as an act of desperation. Doing it in the spring considering McCarthy’s options at LT can be described as common sense. For example I would have really liked to see this OL this season: Bulaga, Sitton, EDS, Lang, Bakhtiari.
     
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  14. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    So you're referencing that the Packers won the Super Bowl that coming season. I wouldn't say that that is so much humorous as it is sad. Sad that Rodgers has spent a good many plays running for his life. With a solid line coach the Packers wouldn't have had to put their franchise at such risk these last few years. Maybe wouldn't have had to rely so much on the passing game because a line couldn't muster many open holes on 3rd or 4th and shorts. I'd say these things are sad and FAR from humorous. :) If they were to win the Super Bowl this season it surely won't be with the line as a strength. That is pretty much a certainty.
     
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  15. Cheesehead625

    Cheesehead625 Cheesehead

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    I think the point was to show how long this has been an issue Chitown, but I get your point as well. Now, I've been a huge advocate of firing Campen and just plain revamping this O-line, but I've been weighing a few things.

    1.) It's almost impossible to build an elite line that can pass block as well as run block. If you look at the best lines in the NFL they are good at one or the other. What you're seeing is that line doing their first priority right which then opens up the second priority. For instance, I wouldn't say that New England's line is an amazing run blocking O-line. Their line is a GREAT pass blocking O-line. This enables Brady to sit in the pocket longer than any other QB and pick apart the defense. What that does is make it easy to block for the run. Everyone on defense is just going to blitz into an easy run block or play too soft. This is what we are trying to do and having Aaron definitely helps.

    2.) We have drafted first round talent, but they can't stay healthy. That and I think we've drafted some great mid round talents. Look at David Bakhtiari and Josh Sitton. Both are 4th rounders that are panning out pretty well. I mean being a rookie and starting off at LT is not easy. I think a lot of the credit has to be given to our coaching staff when 4th rounders look that good.
     
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  16. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    "Sad" the Packers won the Super Bowl? I suppose I've read more foolish posts but none come to mind. The humorous part had nothing to do with the Packers' OL, it had to do with you picking this thread. Here's a clue: When you're in a hole, stop digging. :D
     
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  17. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    Why don't you include my entire comment and not cherry pick there Jack? If you read the next sentence in my post you will see what the sad effect is. And its not the Super Bowl. LOL! Why are you being so squirrely?
     
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  18. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    So far so good with Bakhtiari. But its too early to pass judgement until the lights of the regular season come on. Sitton is solid lineman although he struggled at the end of last season a bit. Injuries are definitely a factor but ultimately to be a successful offensive line in this league you should be able to have a line that can pick up a 3rd or 4th and short better than the Packers seem to do so. That especially applies when it is an obvious running down and when the Packers aren't running a draw out of a shotgun formation or some other play designed to throw the defense off kilter because the line is deficient at getting the short yardage runs.
     
  19. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I think the focus of the Packers in terms of problem areas has got to be the O-Line over special teams. I'll make note again the problems with our O-Line go back all the way to the 2010 -'11 SB year but it just got overlooked because the team won the SB. I think the problem with the O-Line is not so much coaching but we've been plagued by injuries and we lack the roster depth in those positions. Anytime you have a team switching a guy from RT to LT or vice versa in the middle of a game is just asking for trouble. You have guys who are uncomfortable playing those positions, maybe the QB senses they're not comfortable and he becomes uncomfortable within the pocket.

    Now ask yourself this question. Who or what is the most important guy or position on an offense? Is it the QB or the O-Line? Without the O-Line the QB can't do his job or do it as well as he is capable. With our problematic O-Line I'm hesitant to blame coaching or conditioning/ training staff though the thought has crossed my mind several times. Maybe it's not Campen specifically but he might be a part of a larger problem. If that's the case firing him and replacing him is not going to solve anything.

    To be more specific I don't think the problem with the O-Line is as "simple" as replacing the O-Line coach when our problems might unfortunately cover a broader spectrum than what replacing a coach can fix.
     
  20. ExpatPacker

    ExpatPacker Cheesehead

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    The only 1st rounder the Packers have drafted recently is Sherrod, whose injury really hurt this team. The problem I have is that since then the Packers have gone with mid-rounders and a few veteran signings (Saturday) to try and build the line, but it's been more like patchwork.

    I know that the defense needed a lot of upgrading, so many of the draft picks went there, but there were some very good OG and OC's in the second and third rounds that TT passed up. Now this year I don't blame him for that in the least. He took Lacy...who'd argue with that? But instead of Jerel Worthy they could have chosen a C or G, and if I recall, there were some very good ones still on the board. The Packers wanted Kendal Reyes from what I remember, but he got picked just before the Packers were on the board. At that point they could have gone for a lineman other than Worthy, who has talent but whose motor was questioned by many.

    After Sherrod the Packers have not used any 1-3 round picks on an OL. Bakhtiari looks like a fine pick. It's too bad about Tretter and I hope he recovers quickly and we see some reps from him before the end of the season. But this team needs a stud OC or OG. EDS is ok, Lang is ok but pro-bowlers they are not.
     
  21. lambeaulambo

    lambeaulambo Cheesehead

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    Thank you Capt Obvious.
     
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  22. lambeaulambo

    lambeaulambo Cheesehead

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    I think one of the MAJOR problems with this Oline is Lang. His run blocking is horrendous. Watch tape. He is a huge problem when it comes to run blocking. They need to find a replacement next year in the draft, as well as another Tackle. EDS is just a guy. Look at the hand they have been dealt. Upgrades need to become a priority if they want more balance with the run game.
     
  23. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    It's not obvious to everyone! LOL

    Or shall I ask if the O-Line is important? Ask the freaking QB! ......Captain Obvious strikes again!
     
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  24. lambeaulambo

    lambeaulambo Cheesehead

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    whatever...
     
  25. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    Here's how we can go from being poor to great in one year.

    Trade Clay Matthews for Joe Thomas ;) Move Bakhtiari to right tackle. Either combine the top 2 draft picks next year or use them separately on interior line picks preferably a center. Move Buluga to right guard.

    From left to right Joe Thomas- Josh Sitton - High Draft Pick - Buluga, Bakhtiari

    Then I woke up not to mention we would still have the bum Campen coaching these guys....
     
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