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Why cant we do this too

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by de_real_deal, Oct 21, 2007.

  1. Danreb

    Danreb Cheesehead

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    Face it, Brady is one of the best quarterbacks in NFL history.

    True, this is the first time he's putting up massive stats. But what about those other Super Bowl years? His best target has been Deion Branch and Troy Brown. Troy ******* Brown!

    Now he finally has the receivers he's deserved. Yes, Favre would pull the same **** if he had them. But down to earth--he doesn't have them. Live with it.

    Mediocre seasons yes. Lack of an MVP award yes. But the fact of the matter is there has been nobody with a better record in the post-season. The man has 3 Super Bowls in an era where it's hard to even win nine games. The man does it in the snow to boot.

    He's just as good as Favre ever was.

    Do I like him? No. Can he be stopped? Kinda. But it involved hurting him.
     
  2. Toronto_Cheesehead

    Toronto_Cheesehead Cheesehead

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    Same could be said for a guy like Manning who has two number one receivers to throw to (Harrison and Wayne). A QB needs playmakers around him to put up numbers, but you still have to be able to make the plays. Leinart and Warner have great receivers in Arizona, but neither was setting the world on fire before both got hurt. Detroit has great wideouts and Kitna isn't gonna break any records. Guys like Brady, Manning, and Palmer can put up the monster numbers they do cause they're the best in the business.
     
  3. de_real_deal

    de_real_deal Cheesehead

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    Thats a bold statement sir. Re-evaluate supporting casts, coaching, NFL rules that favor the passing game, etc.

    How soon people forget when you get old. Brady is very good but Favre was better in my opinion when all factors are considered.
     
  4. de_real_deal

    de_real_deal Cheesehead

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  5. Buckeyepackfan

    Buckeyepackfan Cheesehead

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    The problem The Packers have is that the first time Brett would throw up a ball like Brady did yesterday and instead of it being caught, it is intercepted, half the people on this forum would be screaming how he is over the hill and can't throw the long ball anymore(oh wait... that already happened).

    The Packers have 3(hopefully 4 with K-Rob back)solid recievers, but none of them can go after the ball the way R. Moss did yesterday.
    I will take the guys we have, because they will be there every game every week playing their best. Moss if discontented, will shut down and disappear from the field.
    Hopefully we will get a shot at The Patriots, but there are too many weeks left in the regular season to even start thinking about that.
     
  6. WinnipegPackFan

    WinnipegPackFan Cheesehead

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    No Z2C,

    I don't care to explain what is well known throughout the NFL but if I really had the need to win this debate with you I would send you to a few forums where this had been discussed to death. Frankly, I just don't have the time or desire at the moment !!!
     
  7. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    I'd take Moss over TO for the record.

    So many rumors about this and it's kind of ridiculous. I know Moss spoke with Bill Bilicheck and Mike McCarthy the night after Day 1 of the Draft. I know the Packers were in the thick of things cause Reggie McKenzie confirmed it in an interview the night of the Moss deal to New England.

    Here is what I read and heard.

    I read that New England offered a 4th and Green Bay offered a 5th. I read that Moss went to New England because he only wanted a 1 year deal and the Packers wanted a 2 year deal. I also heard Moss had some say in where he wanted to go.

    The FACT is if Moss wanted to be a Packer he would've been a Packer. The reason he's not is because who wouldn't want to play for the Patriots during this time. It's kind of like everyone wanted to play for the Packers, Cowboys, and 49ers in the mid 90's. In the mid 00's it's all about the Colts and Patriots.
     
  8. Obi1

    Obi1 Cheesehead

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    We're 5-1 and may not play the Patriots this year. Patriots won't win the rest of the games. Much less win them by a whopping 5 TDs or so.

    Belichick wants to show of and run up the score, LET HIM! Its still only one win. Packers can run the score up if they want to against the weaker opponents... Look at the Giants game.

    Is NE a great team? Yes! Are they impressive? YES!
    But still they are a football team and they will be beaten by another and perhaps a lesser team... Eventually.

    I think ONLY place the score makes a difference to a fan is in bragging rights and pridemongering...
     
  9. de_real_deal

    de_real_deal Cheesehead

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    I understand this. Im saying we should have wrapped this deal up way, way, waaayy before the draft before others got interested. Every day that passed was like torture because i knew the longer it went on, the less likely we were to get the guy. These rumors were swirling like 2 - 3 months before the draft if im not mistaken. The draft is the time that New England became another potential suitor. What idiot would pick the Packers over the Patriots.

    things were also said by packer mgmt. to dissuade moss from coming here. Stuff like public apology to packer fans, etc over the playoff/butt wipe game. This stuff was discussed on the forum pre-draft. Im sure some never heard about this and will want proof. I could dig up these threads but im not wasting an hour looking for them. Its true.
     
  10. WinnipegPackFan

    WinnipegPackFan Cheesehead

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    de_real_deal,

    You are right about getting this wrapped up in time and many knew it could have been done ( no matter what we thought of Moss ). It is still being debated as evidenced by this recent piece ( Posted below ). Bottom line is we could have had him but Management dropped the ball on this one big time. See Oct 14, 1007 piece just for starters:

    Posted October 14, 2007

    Pete Dougherty column: Thompson's biggest blunder: Not getting Moss

    By Pete Dougherty

    Lovie Smith and Steve Mariucci said it all about Randy Moss at the NFL scouting combine in 2005.

    I asked both coaches what they thought of Minnesota trading Moss out of the NFC North Division that offseason, after he'd become such a problem for the Vikings that they sent him to the Oakland Raiders for, in essence, the seventh pick in the 2005 draft.

    "Moss is one of the all-time great players to play the game," said Smith, the Chicago Bears' coach. "So, any time one of your division opponents loses someone like that, you have to be excited."

    Said Mariucci, who was Detroit's coach: "He's a great player and now he's elsewhere. It's that simple."

    Moss was, and remains, a player who tilts the field, though he had some major, sometimes prohibitive, warts. Moss is a player who can strike fear into opponents like few of his generation, but who, because of his shortcomings, could have been had on the cheap. There might have been only two teams that could have made it work with him: New England and Green Bay.

    That's why General Manager Ted Thompson's biggest mistake in what's turned out to be a good Packers offseason wasn't failing to find a good running back, but was failing to wrap up the trade for Moss in the week leading to the draft.

    Quarterback Brett Favre isn't qualified to be a general manager, but he justifiably was upset when Thompson let Moss slip away to New England at the 11th hour.

    Favre knows Moss, and Favre's agent, Bus Cook, has been a longtime Moss adviser. Add in that Favre was one of maybe two or three quarterbacks Moss respects, and a Packers-Moss relationship had a chance to work. Not to mention the price was cheap enough that if Thompson and coach Mike McCarthy didn't like Moss' influence in the locker room, they could have cut him at a palatable financial loss.

    Thompson has taken far more heat for doing nothing more to upgrade the Packers' running game than drafting Brandon Jackson in the second round and DeShawn Wynn in the seventh round.

    I don't buy it.

    Free agency offered no substantial gain. The draft had only one realistic possibility: trading up from No. 16 overall to No. 11, just ahead of Buffalo, to select California running back Marshawn Lynch. But with Moss, there was a chance for something special.

    First, Thompson was right in not competing with Houston to re-sign halfback Ahman Green, who's in major decline, not worth the $8 million in first-year pay Houston gave him and not surprisingly has missed the last two games because of a knee injury.

    In free agency, there was only one good running back, Tennessee's Travis Henry. The cost? Denver paid him a $6 million signing bonus and will pay him a $6 million option bonus next year.

    This for a player with two major red flags on his resume: He's one positive drug test away from a one-year suspension and he's fathered nine children with nine women. Broncos coach Mike Shanahan guaranteed $12 million to this guy. Now that's a major risk, and one that probably won't pay off. Henry failed a drug test recently and is playing while appealing that positive test.

    What about Chris Brown? The Tennessee halfback was available last spring, and it didn't go unnoticed that he rushed for 175 yards on 19 carries in the Titans' opener. Since, he's gained 99 yards on 33 carries for a 3.0-yard average.

    Via the trade market, Thompson could have gone after San Diego's Michael Turner. But Chargers GM A.J. Smith wanted at least a first-round pick, and nobody knows whether LaDainian Tomlinson's backup is good enough to be the guy for another team. Pass.

    Buffalo sent Willis McGahee to Baltimore for two third-round picks and a substantial financial investment: $15 million in signing and option bonuses that are all-but guaranteed. That's too pricey for a guy who's never averaged more than 4.0 yards a carry for a season.

    Thompson can be criticized more justifiably for not trading up to get Lynch, whom Buffalo drafted at No. 12 about 1½ months after trading McGahee.

    The price for Thompson to move up from No. 16 probably would have been a second-round pick. Steep, no doubt, and if he's a bust, you've lost two draft picks, not just one. Knowing what we know, however, it would have been worth it.

    But Thompson didn't do it, and miscalculated in projecting Jackson as a viable option to start as a rookie.

    Regardless, the failure to trade for Moss was by far the bigger mistake. Why? Because Moss, for all his formidable foibles, offered the possibility of the highest of rewards — far higher than any of those running backs — at an incredibly low financial risk.

    "It's all about getting rare players," said a former NFL scout who follows the league closely. "This guy is a rare player."

    Thompson could have finished that deal before the draft if he'd offered Moss a one-year contract instead of two, and a straight $3 million salary (plus about $2 million in incentives), rather than insisting a substantial portion of the $3 million come in weekly bonuses paid only if Moss was on the 45-man game-day roster.

    Moss balked at the roster bonuses and second year of the deal, and hoped for a better offer the first night of the draft. New England swooped in with the same deal, minus the roster bonuses and second year, and Moss spurned the Packers for the Patriots.

    Its unclear whether it would have cost Thompson a fifth-round pick or the fourth-rounder New England spent, but he could have had that deal done Thursday or Friday of that week.

    Of course, trading for Moss, 30, is easy to argue now that he's playing at an MVP level (34 receptions, seven touchdowns). There's no guarantee it would have gone this way in Green Bay, or that it will continue to in New England, for that matter. Moss rarely has been a good teammate, he can be a major boor and for most of his career, he's only done well as a front-runner.

    The point is, this was a low-risk move on a player who had a lot to prove after two seasons in the NFL dregs in Oakland. But let's say it didn't work. With that contract and the Packers' salary-cap space, they could have cut him loose. There would have been no future financial repercussions.

    There's reason to think it could have worked as well with the Packers as it has in New England.

    Moss has performed well in New England in large part because of Tom Brady, an elite leader who has Moss' respect as possibly the league's best quarterback. Moss has Grand Canyon-sized character flaws, but several scouts this week said there's no denying his love for football and his competitiveness when he feels he has a chance to excel. They were adamant he's a much more stable and reliable person than Dallas' Terrell Owens, not to mention a more gifted player.

    "This guy's a competitor now," another NFL scout said.

    Moss is known to have great respect for Favre, just as he does for Brady. So, everything was in place for an amicable relationship in Green Bay: Cook as a common dominator and intermediary and Favre's hard lobbying on Moss' behalf, which suggests the quarterback would have gone to great lengths to ensure it worked out. The Packers could have done like the Patriots and put Moss' locker next to their quarterback to help that chemistry work.

    Yes, the Packers might have ended up spending a fourth- or fifth-round draft pick to rent Moss for a year, but there's a chance they would have re-signed him, especially if Favre returned for another season. Either way, the Packers would have added the best big-play receiver in football to a good receiving corps that would have rendered their run-game shortcomings even less important.

    "These are two guys on the back nines of their career," the first scout said of Favre and Moss. "It could have been magnificent: two guys having fun playing football again. Ted (Thompson) didn't take the opportunity. I don't understand that."
     
  11. Danreb

    Danreb Cheesehead

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    Favre's prime was in a time where the salary cap was just taking effect. They still lived a dynasty in his prime years.

    You look at supporting casts, and the Packers had a great one in 1996. NE's is barely worth mentioning. Like I said, Brady's top receiver was Deion Branch. Favre had guys like Chmura, Freeman, Jackson, Rison--he was an ***, but he delivered.

    The Coaching is on par with each other. Belichick + Weis + Crennel was just as effective as the Holmgren, Gruden, Reid, Mooch stuff we had going on back then.

    But the fact of the matter is the fact that Brady won more Super Bowls than Favre did with far more inferior offenses.

    It took Favre the #1 offense and the #1 defense to get to the big game and win it.

    Don't get me wrong--I hate Brady as much as anybody and love Favre as much as anybody... but I prefer not to be blind. This is a Salary Cap era where parity is absolute, and so far with Brady's 27 TD's, it's easy to argue who's on top right now.

    Anybody who tells me the Packers are better than the Patriots right now are crazy.
     
  12. HomerJay

    HomerJay Cheesehead

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    Man, the Patriots are so good that when the Packers beat them in the Super Bowl, it will only be by 7 or 10 points.
     
  13. de_real_deal

    de_real_deal Cheesehead

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    There are so many incorrect statements in what you just said, i wont even bother starting to explain. Its obvious you dont know what you are talking about to say that Brady is better than Favre was. Maybe you are an 18 year old kid who doesnt remember the Packers in the 90's, i dont know.

    Superbowls are a team game, MVP's are an individual award. Count them up for each player and get back to me. Thanks
     
  14. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    If you read what MM is saying about this he mentioned that they had to be more productive out of the one-back offensive sets and that he is looking at the line and the backs to see what needs to be done to make that more affective.
    So he is looking at and this very thing along with the other aspects of the run game that need to be improved upon.
     
  15. Lare

    Lare Cheesehead

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    I don't know for sure if we could have added Moss to our roster this offseason. But I do know that he's currently leading the NFL in receiving yards and touchdown receptions, and in fact, has more TD's than all our WRs combined, all while reportedly being a model teammate and team player.

    If we could have had him for a 4th and didn't, it probably was a mistake. At the end of the season we'll see if that's the case, and if so, how big of a mistake it might have been.
     
  16. de_real_deal

    de_real_deal Cheesehead

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    Guy is catching 50 yard bombs on his hip with one arm. Lol, of course it was a mistake. Even if it cost us a first rounder and 2nd rounder, it was worth it. Look at the "production" we are getting from rd 1 and 2 so far.

    No Packer could ever do this

    http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80375af8
     
  17. millertime

    millertime Cheesehead

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    Something the Pats do that GB can do is use the pass to open up the run.

    Thinks opposite of what the Steelers used to do when they would use the run to open up the pass.

    The Pats may only rush the ball 15-20 times a game but they average like 6 yards a carry (I made up these stats, but they sound right.) I tihnk we could do the same thing.
     
  18. gopackgo

    gopackgo Cheesehead

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    With Moss we would be at least 11-0 right now, but instead we are a crappy 5-1.



    :roll:
     
  19. de_real_deal

    de_real_deal Cheesehead

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    I know that for some people, 3-0, 4-1, 5-1 is the highlight of their football season. But some of us look ahead to what will happen in the playoffs. With Moss, we are favorites to represent the NFC, without him, we have 1/3 chance at best. Giants are coming on, Hogs are good, Cowboys are excellent and the Bears are creeping up on us. Not to mention TB.
     
  20. Lare

    Lare Cheesehead

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    The ultimate goal of every NFL team is to win the Super Bowl. Like I said, we'll see at the end of the year if a team with Moss on it reaches that goal.
     
  21. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    I would love to have Moss on the Pack. I wanted him to be a Packer even when he was in Minnesota. He's been one of my favorite players in this era. However I really don't know what went on between Ted Thompson and Al Davis prior to the Draft. I'm sure the Packers were very interested though.

    I don't know if the Raiders wanted to keep Moss up until the Draft or if they wanted to get rid of him right away. There is no confirmed report stating Oakland wanted to get rid of Moss right away. Actually I've read statements from Lane Kiffen stating they wanted to keep Moss. The only thing for certain is Moss wanted out of Oakland. We don't know how much Oakland wanted Moss off their team.
     
  22. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    Thats the difference between us. I use quotes as facts and you use forums as facts. ;)
     
  23. gopackgo

    gopackgo Cheesehead

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    You totally missed my point. We don't have Moss no matter how much anyone wants it. If you want to talk playoffs with this team, talk about the players we HAVE not players we WANT.
     
  24. de_real_deal

    de_real_deal Cheesehead

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    You totally missed my point. Your unfunny joke does not dismiss the fact that management dropped the ball this offseason and it will hurt our season at some point.
     
  25. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    :pop:
     

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