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Where did that defense come from?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Packerlifer, Nov 3, 2015.

  1. Packerlifer

    Packerlifer Cheesehead

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    I think any other team going into Denver on Sunday night would have encountered a similar experience to what happened to the Packers. Going up against that defense and a Broncos team that hyped for that game at their home was a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    Here's a good article on how that Denver defense was put together. Given Green Bay's perenniel struggle to establish a defensive identity there may be some things for the Packers to learn here.

    http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_29019687/how-john-elway-former-quarterback-constructed-one-broncos

    http://www.packersnews.com/story/sp...thompson-elway-take-different-paths/74873104/
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  2. DaveRoller

    DaveRoller Cheesehead

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    Interesting read thanks.

    TT definitely has built the Packers differently than the way other recent Super Bowl contenders like Denver, NE, and Seattle go about it.
     
  3. armand34

    armand34 Cheesehead

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    well for one thing Packer's don't take any risks, which has a positive and a negative to it. I was fooled w/ my Packer-Goggles that this team's defense was finally hitting their stride. They are better then the past (which was never really good), but compared to elite...a long way from there
     
  4. Shawnsta3

    Shawnsta3 Cheesehead

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    Interestingly enough the Seahawks before this year were built very similar to the Packers being under John Schneider and the current Bengals are constructed with a strong draft and development plan in place.
     
  5. DaveRoller

    DaveRoller Cheesehead

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    Good point on the Bengals, they are built very similar to the Pack. They even re-signed one of their own free agents who left for a year in like James Jones.

    But the Seahawks? Marshawn Lynch trade, Jimmy Graham trade, Michael Bennet free agent, Cliff Avril free agent, Percy Harvin (bad trade), Fred Jackson (street free agent), even their kicker and punter played for other teams. Schneider is a wheeler dealer like his mentor Ron Wolf.
     
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  6. Shawnsta3

    Shawnsta3 Cheesehead

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    While all this is true, the strength of the team, "The Legion of Boom" in Richard Sherman, Byron Maxwell, Kam Chancellor and Earl Thomas were all drafted. As well as Russell Wilson. So I think we can agree they've got some of both.
     
  7. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    losing two corners and having a guy that never played a Def snap before tends to hurt
     
  8. Packer Fan in SD

    Packer Fan in SD Cheesehead

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    While true, remember, many of the free agents they signed were picked up while they were still in for cheap on Wilson. Now that will be changing or they will be playing cap hell like many other teams do. Denver was trying to redo contracts the other day to get Thomas, which would have had an accounting due down the line.

    We were actually trying for Lynch, but the Pack felt the asking price in picks was too high, IIRC. Seattle topped us and got him. As for Graham, I think that was a terrible move. They lost more in Unger than they will gain in Graham.
     
  9. Sanguine camper

    Sanguine camper Cheesehead

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    The biggest problem with Packers defense is the lack of athleticism with their linebackers once you get past Matthews. They consistently get torched by tight ends because they can't run and give up long runs for the same reason. The d like e lacks athleticism as well but not to the same extent as the LB corps. If the Linebackets really have athleticism then why can't they cover anybody?
     
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  10. Pokerbrat2000

    Pokerbrat2000 Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.

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    Isn't it funny how one game can change fans perceptions as well as the media's? Had the schedule makers brought Denver to Green Bay for this last game, would the outcome been different? Would the conversations this week about both teams be different? That is one thing I enjoy but also hate at the same time about Football, one weeks studs can quickly become the next weeks duds.
     
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  11. Pokerbrat2000

    Pokerbrat2000 Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.

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    I don't really scout or study what other teams have done in the draft, but if you look back at the Packers last 10 years of the draft, there is really only one high impact defensive player in that group, Clay Matthews. So for an organization that lives and dies by the philosophy of draft and develop, the defense has been somewhat poorly built over the last decade. Blame it on bad luck, poor scouting, bad drafting or coaching, but the reality is, our defense does not have a lot of super stars.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2015
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  12. PackerfaninCarolina

    PackerfaninCarolina Cheesehead

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    I haven't done a full all out research project on all of TT's draft picks throughout all his years to fully back this up, but I have heard some fellow Packer fans, not on this site but in person, talk about his drafts being more offensive focused than defensive focused. May not be entirely true, but given that our O has very much been the strength of our team over the years, I would not be surprised if that was generally true.

    The other thing is, it seems like our defensive side of the ball gets more injured than our offensive side. Some of those like Josh Boyd's injury, are not exactly preventable, but I gotta wonder if there isn't some technique issues that Dom Capers' minions aren't teaching properly that could be contributing to some of these. I also wonder if maybe our strength and conditioning team may be doing some things wrong for our defense. I mean I think in general everyone's been dealing with those things, but it seems like our defense has been subject to more injuries than most others.
     
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  13. Packerlifer

    Packerlifer Cheesehead

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    I've come around to the opinion that Mike McCarthy needs to abandon the 34 defense and switch back to a 4-3 after this season. This is the seventh season of the 3-4 in Green Bay and whatever the Packers have achieved in the previous six seasons, including winning a Super Bowl, nothing of it can be said to be due to that defensive scheme.

    The quarterback and the offense have been carrying most of the weight of the team during this period and the Packers would probably have done just as well, if not better, playing a good 4-3 since 2009.

    Every year it's the same issues of personnel. Inside linebackers, an olb complement to Clay Matthews, d-line. Trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

    B.J. Raji and Mike Daniels are coming to free agency after this season. This is likely the last year in Green Bay for Julius Peppers. Sam Barrington looks like another Desmond Bishop; a promising player who can't stay healthy. And it's doubtful the Packers will any longer use Nick Perry's $2.3 million cap number for their training room instead of the field of play.

    It takes particular kinds of players to make the 3-4 really work and the Packers haven't been getting them. Few colleges play 34 so the drafts would probably be more productive as a 4-3 since it would mean bringing in players experienced and "built" to play it.

    It would probably also mean bringing in a fresh approach with a new coordinator. Dom Capers has coached 4-3 in his past but 3-4 is more his specialty. I'm not a "fire Capers" guy but new leadership and spirit for the D in Green Bay along with a new scheme and better more suited players could be a big help and stop the "same song, different verse" we've been seeing on that side of Packers football for the last 5 years.
     
  14. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    During his tenure Thompson has drafted 54 offensive and 48 defensive players. He has been far more succesful selecting offensive players though.
     
  15. PackerDNA

    PackerDNA Cheesehead

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    There are pros and cons to both the 3-4 and the 4-3.
    Basically, it comes down to personnel. If you have 'more better' linemen then LB's , you use a 4-3. And vice versa.
     
  16. DaveRoller

    DaveRoller Cheesehead

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    The Denver defense we all just saw shut down our Pack in spectacular fashion is a 3-4, so I seriously doubt the solution to the D's chronic woes is to revert back to a 4-3.

    Going back to the opening post, the Broncos D is thriving due to both good drafting and liberal use of free agency. Without free agents like DeMarcus Ware, Aqib Talib, and TJ Ward the Brincos D would still be decent just not great.
     
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  17. PackerDNA

    PackerDNA Cheesehead

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    All big name, big money free agents.
     
  18. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    and if their plan doesn't work this year, they are probably done for the next few. I do NOT see manning performing like that for the rest of the season and into the playoffs. As always, we'll see how this all ends up.
     
  19. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    This is truly a misconception, participating in free agency doesn´t automatically result in a team being in cap hell. They have to make smart decisions but that´s the same when re-signing own FAs. Just as an example as of right now the Packers have committed $102 million towards the cap for the 2017 season (24 players) compared to the Broncos $70 million (19).
     
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  20. DaveRoller

    DaveRoller Cheesehead

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    Before the 2014 season, NE recognized a weakness at CB and signed high profile free agents Brandon Browner and Darrelle Revis. They knew they would not be able to keep one or both of them after the 2014 season, so after collecting their Lombardi Trophy, moved on from both players. They are not in cap hell in 2015. I also don't think at 7-0 they are "done" just yet.

    The notion that a team that participates in free agency is automatically in cap hell or mortgaging the future just does not hold up to scrutiny.
     
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  21. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    LIke I said, we'll see how this all plays out
     
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  22. Pokerbrat2000

    Pokerbrat2000 Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.

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    For the most part TT's "Draft and Develop" philosophy has served the Packers well, but IMO his stubbornness to sign a Free Agent on occasion is hurting the Packers in a few areas, talent and veteran leadership. I realize FA signings often time end in an overpaid Vet not living up to their new contract and buyers remorse. But if you consider our 2 most prominent FA signings in the last 10 years, Charles Woodson and Julius Peppers and the leadership and talent they brought to the Packers, you have to wonder why TT is so stubborn on this end of the business. This past off season the Packers had glaring needs at ILB, TE and even CB. He somewhat covered the CB position in the draft but left the Packers very weak at ILB and TE.

    Obviously the cap is the other piece of the FA puzzle and I understand good fiscal management, but sometimes you have to ask yourself is TT being Pennywise and Pound foolish when it comes to Free Agency?
     
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  23. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    and participating in FA doesn't guarantee anything. those cap numbers are nice for denver, but don't show you anything. I love numbers (eye roll)

    and I never said they're in cap hell, I said they're done. They are all in for this year. After this year they won't have a qb and unless they get extremely lucky that alone will be enough to make this their last chance at success.

    My bet is they either have a large roster turnover coming up shortly, or they will be signing guys to big renewals and will have a heavier cap burden. What good is a lower cap number going into next year if they have 5 guys that are going to be signed to big contracts or be gone somewhere else? Von Miller, Free agent, Their starting left tackle, free agent along with the back up at the position, #2 WR Caldwell is a free agent, newly signed Vernon Davis is a free agent, both Running backs are free agents ( one unrestricted, one restricted)

    Starting Defensive end Wolfe is a UFA, antonio smith is a ufa, Starting ILB is a RFA, Starting Guard Mathis is a FA and backup RT is a UFA

    participating heavily in FA doesn't automatically result in a super bowl. and it usually results in short term, fleeting success as it isn't a recipe for longevity and cohesiveness in a team. So post your cap numbers and infer what you think I am saying about it. We'll see how it turns out. I think Denver is done after this year, and I don't think they'll last to the Super Bowl anyway. Their QB can do it for a game, in 4 weeks and a few hits from now he'll be fluttering passes and unless the D can win every game, they'll be done.

    The patriots seem to be one team that beats the odds more often than not. Exceptions don't prove rules.
     
  24. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    I remember a lot of people saying the exact same thing about the Broncos during the 2014 season yet they're undefeated after seven games.

    While participating in free agency doesn't guarantee success completely ignoring it doesn't either.

    I would prefer Thompson to take a more balanced approach and use free agency to selectively address position of needs through free agency.
     
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  25. PackerDNA

    PackerDNA Cheesehead

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    This. It's not an either or proposition.
     

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