1. Welcome to Green Bay Packers NFL Football Forum & Community!

    Packer Forum is one of the largest online communities for the Green Bay Packers. You are currently viewing our community forums as a guest user.

    Sign Up or

    Having an account grants you additional privileges, such as creating and participating in discussions. Furthermore, we hide most of the ads once you register as a member!
    Dismiss Notice

We CANNOT win the NFC

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by FrankRizzo, Jul 29, 2010.

  1. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

    Joined:
    May 2, 2010
    Messages:
    5,889
    Ratings:
    +1,679
    Devil's Advocate
    Someone please convince me why this thinking is wrong.

    The Packers cannot win the NFC because our weakness is going to get exposed by the strength of their competition, mainly the Vikings and Saints. That's pass defense.

    The Packers were eliminated last year because Kurt Warner went 1984-Dan Marino on our defense. But Warner was obviously not the only one who did that to this defense.
    Farve did it twice (and with Al Harris still there both times), and Roethlisberger did it as well, setting a Steelers all-time record with 517 yards passing. The injury to Harris is not an excuse. This team's pass defense is simply piss-poor and either boom or bust. If no interception, then we're dead.

    And last year in the playoffs, we didn't even have to play Brees and the Saints, who would also have thrown for 400+ on us. Remember the year before on Monday night when Brees had a perfect passer rating against our guys?
    They scored 51 points against us, the most ever in Saints history.
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eqXlzdpnIw&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Week 12 2008 - NFLTA, Packers vs. Saints highlights[/ame]

    Two different schemes & seasons, DC's, but same DB coaches and same CB's basically, so there's something very very troubling about our pass defense that I feel has still not been corrected.
    I worry that our DB coaches aren't up to par, or else all our CB's other than Woodson are overrated. Nobody else got, gets lit up like we do. Not the Panthers, Bucs, or Vikings with their bad DB's. They held Brees to under 200 yards in the NFCCG.

    Other than hope and wishful thinking & pretending that Morgan Burnett is going to convert to lockdown CB right away as a rookie, is there anything anyone can say to get me to believe that our pass coverage & overall pass defense is going to be a lot better?
     
  2. robdog

    robdog Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    2,373
    Ratings:
    +327
    Still to early to tell. I will have to see the first few games of the season. After that I can say if our defense is going to step up or our offense is just going to outscore people.
     
  3. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2008
    Messages:
    8,471
    Ratings:
    +980
    Yes. In all of those games, Jarrett Bush played nickel or dime. And in a lot of those, Derrick Martin and Matt Giordano played SS.

    Also, like you said, different schemes, one being run by an incompetent %##$% and the other being a first year in a completely different playbook (3-4, mainly zone, as opposed to 4-3, mainly bump-and-run man coverage).

    There's also the pass rush issue. We had essencially 2 DL in 08 (Kampman and Jenkins), and we lacked pass rush (and intelligence) in 09. CM3 was a rookie, so was Jones, and our DL had zero rotation.
     
  4. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

    Joined:
    May 2, 2010
    Messages:
    5,889
    Ratings:
    +1,679
    Well our first games of the season face these QBs:
    1. Kevin Kolb
    2. Brian Brohm or Trent Edwards
    3. Jay Cutler
    4. Matt Stafford
    5. Donovan McNabb
    6. Chad Henne
    Hopefully, we will be 6-0 after that stretch, but 5-1 is more likely. 4-2 quite possible as well. 3-3 would mean bad news.

    So I don't think we'll be able to tell much about our pass defense by that 6-game stretch against B, C, and D quarterbacks.
    Remember, our defense was good last year against the Staffords, Cutlers, Quinns, Romos, Bulgers, Flaccos.
    It's the super high-octane passing games like the Saints, Vikings, and Warner-Cardinals that carved us up. I still don't understand how the Steelers passed for 500 on us. That's not normally a pass-happy team like that.
     
  5. PackisBack

    PackisBack Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2010
    Messages:
    102
    Ratings:
    +13
    I want you to watch the first TD the saints score in that video. Lance Moore makes Bigby look like he's got cement shoes. As i've said before, Bigby is a huge liability in our pass coverage. My hope is that switching to Burnett will yield at least some improvement (which is better than none)

    Also, pass rush. Favre, Big Ben, and Warner had FOREVER to throw the goddam football. The pass rush on this team is atrocious. I'm hoping that the D-line will make amazing strides this year to open up holes for CM3 and Brad Jones, and maybe someone on the DL can get a few sacks of their own as well. We need it, because our secondary is good if we get pass rush and terrible when we don't. It's not just the rush in our base D either, it's the pass rush in Nickel and Dime situations when we don't even have LBs on the field rushing in. When offenses spread us out, we get torn apart because the Dline cant get enough push.

    I have faith in our secondary. Look at Minnesota, their CBs are similar in skill sets to our starting CBs, and its my opinion they have inferior safties to us, so why do they not get lit up on the back end as much as we do? They have pass rush, they led the league in sacks, QBs didn't even have time to think before Jared Allen and Kevin Williams were smashing their face into the dirt.

    Pass rush is the name of the game, and it starts on the D-line. I think the GB brass saw this and they made the decision to draft Neal and Wilson to hopefully sure this problem up. I hope it works, for our super bowl chances depend on it.
     
  6. pluto

    pluto Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    65
    Ratings:
    +4
    the best defensive backfields have a better than average pass rush. the more pressure on a qb the better the db's are.
     
  7. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

    Joined:
    May 2, 2010
    Messages:
    5,889
    Ratings:
    +1,679
    Very true, the pass rush can make the DBs look a lot better. Or worse.
    The Giants in 07-08 had average DBs but because their DL was so good that year, it made them look good.
    Ask the Cowboys, us, and then Patriots.

    Yep the Vikings have a way better pass rush with the Williams inside and Allen and Edwards off the edges.

    Cullen Jenkins is as good a pass rusher as Williams is.
    And Matthews is close to Jared Allen.
    But we need more.

    I also worry that our DB coaches are not as good as we need.
     
  8. vegasdan

    vegasdan Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    23
    Ratings:
    +1
    I think pass rush played a part, but I think the bigger part was the depth of the secondary.

    We lost Al Harris, Blackmon and Lee at the CB position; and Atari at Safety. Against teams that had a deep receiving corps, we had difficulty with covering anything beyond the 2nd receiver. There is an issue with the LBs (except Clay) with their coverage skills. I have a lot of confidence in our defensive coaching staff to rectify this issue and I believe the depth issue is covered with these players coming back and drafting of Morgan Burnett.
     
  9. aaronqb

    aaronqb Cheesehead

    Joined:
    May 6, 2010
    Messages:
    583
    Ratings:
    +73
    It's way too early to tell. The guys haven't even been hitting yet.

    But, if you want to be convinced here are a few things to chew on:

    1. This is year 2 under Capers in the 3-4. The staff has an entire offseason to evaluate players and what works and doesn't work. They've also been able to give the guys the offseason to work on things they KNOW need addressing

    2. Last year the team was decimated by injuries in the secondary. IR: Harris, Lee, Backmon; Bigby and Martin were not at 100%. Heck, go back and watch the AZ game - Matt Giordano was playing safety alongside Collins.

    3. Raji was injured for most of last year. Remember how he was able to push the pocket in preseason? Look for him to step up.

    4. We invested in two DL in the draft. May have another good inside pash rusher in the nickel.

    5. Matthews and Jones have both had an offseason to bulk up a bit and learn their crafts a bit better. They are no longer rookies.

    6. Look for an improvement in Underwood. He's no longer a rookie, either.

    The teams the Packers are chasing are older than us. We are on the rise; the people we are chasing are getting older at key positions and we may benefit from some drop-off.

    Bottom line ... we are positioned as well as anyone in the NFC to get to the Super Bowl. We will need a few breaks and favorable injuries to get there, but so will our competition.
     
  10. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
    Messages:
    3,158
    Ratings:
    +1,312
    The game has become much too pass-oriented with today's rules. Stopping the pass means winning games, and if any passer in the NFL is given time, he'll pick you apart. So it seems to me that unless the Packers generate some serious pass rush, we're in for a disappointing season, regardless of who is playing in the secondary. Frank's worries are on my mind as well.

    This is what we need to see on every pass play: [​IMG]
     
  11. dansz15

    dansz15 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    600
    Ratings:
    +35
    Personally, I don't even want to speculate until the season starts because none of us know how it is really going to go. 6th Round picks end up Pro Bowlers sometimes and can change a team. I think I will let the season unfold and see how it ends up before I get nervous.
     
  12. Forget Favre

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2009
    Messages:
    8,169
    Ratings:
    +2,803
    Yeah.
    Your basing your fears on last year.
    Last year is in the past and the future is yet to come.
    It's unfair or not right to judge what will happen this season when it hasn't even started yet.
    Anything can happen.
    Key players on any team can get injured.
    New plays will get formulated and they will either work or won't.
    Heck, even the Lions could end up going to the SB.
    Whatever it is, I would think the Pack is looking at the things that went wrong and would be working to correct it.
    :butcher:
     
  13. turbo69

    turbo69 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2010
    Messages:
    702
    Ratings:
    +41
    A couple years ago Al Harris got smoked like a cheap cigar by Plaxico Burress. He is suppose to be a pretty damn good CB. Bottom line is we could not get to the QB. If a QB has enough time to roll back pull out his phone and order a pizza from domino's........it is going to be a long day. We could pick up a couple crack heads down by the railroad tracks to cover better than those two.

    That being said, Hopefully Mike Neal can collapse the pocket a little more and Brad Jones will get better along with Clay Matthews. Jones and Matthews got to get better this year.

    To me, that was one of the problems. Opposing QB's could just step up in the pocket to avoid the rush. With Raji having another year under his belt, and hopefully staying healthy......I think we will crush that pocket.

    Lets pray our QB has more time.....upright........and Charles Woodson stays healthy.

    In closing.......I would like to say that I honestly think we are going to the superbowl. I have not felt that way.....honestly......ever. I guess I have been a little pesimistic because I am soo...use to saying.......come on Favre.......please......please don't **** this up. So let it be written......so let it be done! lol
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. morningwood

    morningwood Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    289
    Ratings:
    +91
    As a Saints' fan I would love to say that the Pac can't beat us -- but that's not the truth. I am not here to kiss ***, but the Pac is plenty good enough to beat any team on a given day.


    Not to take anything away from the Cards, but I think you guys would have beaten them but for the fact you traveled there two weeks in a row. I think the team was exhausted late in the game. That's not making excuses because - that is why you have to win early and often in the regular season.
     
  15. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
    Messages:
    3,158
    Ratings:
    +1,312
    We got rid of our best outside rusher, Kampman, and replaced him with ?. I was amazed that we didn't draft another linebacker/rusher, but it must mean that TT and McC think they've got the players they need to put pressure on the QB. If they're wrong, it will be a long year.
     
  16. turbo69

    turbo69 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2010
    Messages:
    702
    Ratings:
    +41
    I think Kampman is a very good football player........however........he seemed to just struggle with Dom Capers defense. Brad Jones didn't even play half the season and he still got what.......4 sacks I think. He was a Rookie 7 round pick. If he stays healthy this year I see him getting double digit sacks.
     
  17. NYPacker

    NYPacker Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2009
    Messages:
    1,582
    Ratings:
    +38
    Morningwood you're right about everything however not everyone gives your team the credit it deserves. During the entire wildcard debacle, I kept on asking myself if the Pack can't get past the Cardinals, how would they ever beat the Saints? And it's not just the high octane offense that scares me, it's the defense as well. For those of you who don't think highly of their D, let me break it down for you in one simple statement: "they own!" They beat 5/6 of all the superbowl winning Qbs in the regular plus postseason that are currently playing: Favre, Warner, both Manning brothers and Tom Brady. I don't care where they were ranked but a defense that can do just that deserves a SB ring IMHO.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. G0PackG0

    G0PackG0 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    565
    Ratings:
    +86
    Pass protection improved throughout the season. Hopefully the additions of Bulaga and others will help even more. And we have an easy 4 games to start theseason. so lets make the most and get ready for the hardmodes!(wow reference sorry)
     
  19. packattackNJ

    packattackNJ Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1
    Ratings:
    +0
    Its too early to tell what were gonna do. we should wait and see what our D is gonna play like this year before we start worrying about the NFC Championship. you never know they might supprise us.
     
  20. Mr. StyleZ

    Mr. StyleZ Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    1,760
    Ratings:
    +376
    This is the only thing you need to remember...

    You do not have to be the best, you just have to be better than your opponent.
     
  21. KilrB

    KilrB Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Ratings:
    +99
    I agree, Jones should do well.

    Being a Hawkeys fan I loved Kampman being on the Packers. However, he had a non stop motor and was an over achiever at the position because of that and his dedication. It was destined to fail making him a linebacker after all that he put into being a DE.

    The one thing I can see the Packers do not have that most Championship type teams have is a real burner. A single player who can turn the game anytime he touches the ball. Like Devein Hester was when the Bears when to the SuperBowl or Desmond Howard in 1996.

    I still think they can do it this year though.
     
  22. PackisBack

    PackisBack Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2010
    Messages:
    102
    Ratings:
    +13
    The Colts have never had that type of player, and the Patriots didn't have that type of player when they won their championships. Speed is good, but we can definitely win without a burner.
     
  23. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    16,590
    Ratings:
    +4,273
    As far as the saints go Brees is on the cover of Madden so he will be out, and Favre will not have a repeat year. He is long overdue for a bad stretch at age 41.
     
  24. Pugger

    Pugger Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2008
    Messages:
    414
    Ratings:
    +5
    Brees is on the cover of Madden? Thank God it wasn't Rodgers. If I were a Saints fan I'd be worried! ;-)
     
  25. KilrB

    KilrB Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Ratings:
    +99
    Yep,

    Thats why I said:
     

Share This Page