Viks vs Pack

[longtimefan]

Vikings played like crap and still won by 2 touchdowns. What does that say about the state of the Packers? No doubt the Packers are now the worst team in the league. Is it coaching or a complete lack of talent? While there are serious holes on the team, I would say that their weekly mess is a lack of coaching. Stenovich was a good o line coach. Time to send him back where he belongs.

We had better offensive talent last year and only won 8 and looked bad

I say coaching

 

[Magooch]

A few brief but broad questions on the state of things.

Is LaFleur an above-average, average, or below-average head coach? (Is he an above-average, average, or below-average OC/playcaller?)

Is Love currently an above-average, average, or below-average QB?

Does Love have the potential to be an above-average, average, or below-average QB?

Is Joe Barry an above-average, average, or below-average defensive coordinator?

Is the overall talent level on offense above-average, average, or below-average? (Are the results reflecting that talent level?)

Is the overall talent level on defense above-average, average, or below-average? (Again, do the results reflect this?)

On the whole, is the team’s total talent above-average, average, or below-average, compared to the other 31 teams?

Overall, do you feel the quality of coaching for the team is above-average, average, or below average?

 

[Magooch]

A few brief but broad questions on the state of things.

My answers:
LaFleur (Head coach): average to above-average (based on history, at least)
LaFleur (Playcaller/OC): below-average
Love (currently): below-average
Love (potential): average
Barry: below-average
Talent on offense: average (no, results don’t reflect that)
Talent on defense: above-average (no, results don’t reflect that)
Overall Talent: average
Overall Coaching: below-average

 

[Wi. Mike now in Florida]

It's true right?
If Love doesn't work out as our started QB and because Gute drafted him, Gute will be gone too.

 

[David Ciembronowicz]

What is there to say? QB below avg (pretty much bottom 3 in NFL); OL below avg (bottom 5 in NFL); WR /TE below avg (youth, mistakes, Doubs might be the best of the lot, what happened with their speedster from NDak?); RB (injuries don't help so not sure where you go with running the ball). D has been OK but when you continue to fail to get FD's, kick after 3 plays the D is on the field a lot; also the CB/S are not exactly playing at a high level, avg at best..... What will they get winning 6 games this year? top 10 pick, maybe they go QB again but would prefer they drop down, get couple of picks and fill many holes this team has.

 

[rmontro]

It's true right?
If Love doesn't work out as our started QB and because Gute drafted him, Gute will be gone too.

If that reasoning is true, doesn't that guarantee that Gute doesn't draft a QB next year if the opportunity arises?

 

[AGreen2AJones]

Love must be benched. MLF must be fired. Gutekunst must go. The board must remove Murphy. If not the board must be replaced

 

[OldSchool101]

Can this team end up 7-10 this season!?

Yes. My guess is now 6-11

 

[longtimefan]

Love must be benched. MLF must be fired. Gutekunst must go. The board must remove Murphy. If not the board must be replaced

I get Love

Why matt and why Gute?

Do you know the packers bod work?

 

[OldSchool101]

Titans and Panthers won today! This is exciting hoping for the number one pick. It feels like when we used to be in playoff contention and hoping the teams in front us to lose, only this is the opposite.

If we get the #1 overall? We should trade back and take a nice haul of draft capital.

 

[melvin dangerr]

A few brief but broad questions on the state of things.

Is LaFleur an above-average, average, or below-average head coach? (Is he an above-average, average, or below-average OC/playcaller?)

Is Love currently an above-average, average, or below-average QB?

Does Love have the potential to be an above-average, average, or below-average QB?

Is Joe Barry an above-average, average, or below-average defensive coordinator?

Is the overall talent level on offense above-average, average, or below-average? (Are the results reflecting that talent level?)

Is the overall talent level on defense above-average, average, or below-average? (Again, do the results reflect this?)

On the whole, is the team’s total talent above-average, average, or below-average, compared to the other 31 teams?

Overall, do you feel the quality of coaching for the team is above-average, average, or below average?

so far a 2-5 record makes this all below average

 

[melvin dangerr]

It's true right?
If Love doesn't work out as our started QB and because Gute drafted him, Gute will be gone too.

Maybe, maybe not, GB management has a long history of taking to long to figure personnel issues out.

 

[OldSchool101]

Yes their receivers are young but that is not an excuse (ie. Jordan Addison Vikes),

Jayden Reed actually outperformed a clear #23 overall drafted player. I’m not sure you realized this. Had Reed not had that 1 catch stripped by an A+ Defensive effort? He would’ve smoked Addison with over 100 yards of production and not even close. Reed still bested Addison both in yards and per catch numbers.

That said, that drop resulted in an INT, but it was clearly not on Love.
Ball placement was nearly perfect and this was not a short throw.

That is not an excuse. It’s 100% factual that Jordan Love gave a Rookie good opportunity to exceed 100 yards in receptions. I don’t see that bad like you do though.

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[adambr2]

I get Love

Why matt and why Gute?

Do you know the packers bod work?

I'm actually more confused by benching Love. What good would it do? Clifford ain't the guy. At least give Love the whole season.

MLF gets another year likely based on track record, but I don't see anything he does particularly well and certainly don't see him in the upper echelon of HCs. He'll be on the hot seat next year if things continue this way.

Gute I have no idea why anyone wants to keep him around. His 2020 draft was an absolute albatross and his track record was weak enough where Jordan Love was always going to be a referendum on Gute-- and the early returns are not good.

His 2022 offseason was indefensible. Everyone would have understood if he wanted to go all in for a championship. Everyone would have understood if he wanted to turn the page, give Love a shot and take the huge haul for Rodgers when it was available.

Instead, he did NEITHER. Extended Rodgers, then turned around and traded Adams. The results were predictably not good. Absolutely inexplicable sequence of decisions.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I was going to steer clear of this thread today, I figured that it would be filled with Doomsday and The Sky Is Falling posts, I wasn't disappointed.

 

[Sanguine camper]

Its clear this team is rudderless. Easy to see how poorly coached they are and how the 2020 draft has been such a disaster. I think fans are pointing out the obvious.

I was going to steer clear of this thread today, I figured that it would be filled with Doomsday and The Sky Is Falling posts, I wasn't disappointed.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Its clear this team is rudderless. Easy to see how poorly coached they are and how the 2020 draft has been such a disaster. I think fans are pointing out the obvious.

Same HC that went 39-9 his first 3 seasons. So as much as you want to think that MLF is a bad coach, I for one wouldn't agree.

 

[adambr2]

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[Magooch]

Same HC that went 39-9 his first 3 seasons. So as much as you want to think that MLF is a bad coach, I for one wouldn't agree.

I wouldn’t call him a bad coach but he’s certainly not trending the right way at the moment. 39-3 first three seasons… 10-14 since then.

I’ve said before that we can (very broadly) evaluate a coach/coaching staff by one simple measure.

A good coach will have his team producing an on-field performance that’s more than the sum of its parts. You might say he is able to get his players to over-perform.

An average coach will have his team producing pretty much exactly what you’d expect out of the talent at his disposal. Players don’t over-perform but they aren’t really under-performing either. He doesn’t make your team worse but he doesn’t really “elevate” it either. In short you get out what you put in.

A bad coach has his team under-performing, where the on-the-field product is worse than the sum of its parts. Players are not put in positions to succeed (and are perhaps set up for failure).

So I don’t think LaFleur is a bad coach, but by that measure I’m not convinced he’s a particularly good one either. When he has elite talent, he gets good results. When that talent doesn’t produce (or you take away the elite talent) he looks a lot less special. That doesn’t mean he’s a bad coach but at the moment I’m not particularly convinced that he is a guy who can really “elevate” the players given to him and get out more than he’s been given, basically.

And I suspect if we were to fire LaFleur tomorrow (not that we would, of course) there would not be too many teams lining up to replace their current coach with him. Would love for him to prove me wrong of course.

 

[DarkHelmet]

A few brief but broad questions on the state of things.

Is LaFleur an above-average, average, or below-average head coach? (Is he an above-average, average, or below-average OC/playcaller?) Average HC at best. Probably below average as a playcaller.

Is Love currently an above-average, average, or below-average QB? Well below average right now. 29th in passer rating. 32nd in completion rate. Tied for first in interceptions. Currently Love is in contention for worst QB in the league. And he's played a bunch of bad teams.

Does Love have the potential to be an above-average, average, or below-average QB? For I long time I thought his ceiling was average. If he had turned out to be 12th or better in the league I would have been very pleasantly surprised. I now think his ceiling is below average. I can't see him being a top 16 QB in the league. His decision making has been poor from day one and his accuracy has been wildly inconsistent from day one. I haven't seen evidence of significant improvement. Drafting on a flier in the third or fourth round would have been excusable, perhaps. Trading up to draft him in the first round while infuriating your hall of fame starting quarterback who needed starter-quality help at WR or OL? Utterly inexcusable. Really should be a career-ender for Gute.

Is Joe Barry an above-average, average, or below-average defensive coordinator? Below average and never should have been hired.

Is the overall talent level on offense above-average, average, or below-average? (Are the results reflecting that talent level?) Below average. Results are slightly worse than the talent level because the coaching has been poor. QB, line, TE are all below league average. WR talent is unknown at this point since the QB has trouble hitting the side of a barn and the OC has no clue.

Is the overall talent level on defense above-average, average, or below-average? (Again, do the results reflect this?) Hard to tell because the coaching has been abysmal. I'm going to say average, but it could be slightly better.

On the whole, is the team’s total talent above-average, average, or below-average, compared to the other 31 teams? Below average. QB is the most important position and we are well below average there. Love seems like a really nice guy, I'm sure he works hard, he may have leadership skills. But the quarterback's two most important jobs are decision making and throwing. He's not shown that he's any good at those skills. Apart from that, we have a handful of good defensive players (Clark, Gary, Campbell) and one good offensive skill player (Jones) along with several young players who could be good in time. We also have some players who have been good and theoretically could be good again (Jenkins, Alexander, for example.)

Overall, do you feel the quality of coaching for the team is above-average, average, or below average? Below average. And that -- along with the below average roster -- is all on the front office.

 

[adambr2]

Same HC that went 39-9 his first 3 seasons. So as much as you want to think that MLF is a bad coach, I for one wouldn't agree.

You are not wrong that the record is going to buy him a much longer leash than he would have had otherwise.

But it is easy to disguise your faults when your veteran QB essentially runs the offense, and you don't run your defense at all.

I think it's probably a very legitimate argument that a post-Rodgers Packer team was always going to have to depend more on the gameplanning and preparation of their HC and the early results have obviously not been good.

I don't think many Packer fans see Mike McCarthy as any sort of mastermind, and he won a Super Bowl with this same QB. Elite QB play can disguise a lot.

 

[Magooch]

But it is easy to disguise your faults when your veteran essentially runs the offense, and you don't run your defense at all.

I am also reminded that we repeatedly heard how Rodgers never really allowed LaFleur to run his offense and now with Rodgers gone, LaFleur would have his guy at QB and finally be able to run the offense the way he envisioned. That has… not gone great so far.

 

[adambr2]

I am also reminded that we repeatedly heard how Rodgers never really allowed LaFleur to run his offense and now with Rodgers gone, LaFleur would have his guy at QB and finally be able to run the offense the way he envisioned. That has… not gone great so far.

Yup. I was on that train myself after Week 1, and now feel silly about it.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

What was the teams record last season with Rodgers? Oh I know, it was his "thumb".

People expecting THIS roster to compete, especially on offense are just fooling themselves. The Packer OL is playing like crap, the receivers (WR and TE) are about as Green as they come, Aaron Jones has missed half the season and this is Love's first year starting. Yeah, let's just panic and start over, seems to have worked for the Bears.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

So I don’t think LaFleur is a bad coach, but by that measure I’m not convinced he’s a particularly good one either. When he has elite talent, he gets good results. When that talent doesn’t produce (or you take away the elite talent) he looks a lot less special. That doesn’t mean he’s a bad coach but at the moment I’m not particularly convinced that he is a guy who can really “elevate” the players given to him and get out more than he’s been given, basically.

While I agree with this, to some extent, it is very hard to be a consistent winner in the NFL without elite, healthy talent. See San Fran and the Rams. Throw in a bit of luck, scheduling and as I alluded to, injuries and you have a lot of variables to decide on, before just firing a coach.

If there was one thing I would fault MLF for, it is hanging on to Joe Barry. To do that though, I would want to confirm that he has 100% of the power to make a change or does some of that power lie with Gute/Murphy?