The Cupboard under TT

[El Guapo]

We've debated on here many times about whether it's time for TT to go and whether or not Elliot Wolf should be given the job. After watching the 9-2 Raiders take another big step towards establishing themselves as a top team, I thought about our dearly departed Reggie McKenzie. Obviously TT benefited from having John Schneider as his #2 in the early years and then McKenzie as his #2 for a few seasons. Since 2011, he has essentially been TT's #2 guy as I understand it, gaining promotions in title to keep him from leaving.

However, up until last night pundits and forum members have been talking about the lack of explosive players coming out of TT's drafts in recent years. It's fair to wonder about how bare the cupboard has become in TT's personnel department, how much influence Wolf has in drafting decisions in recent years, and whether or not he is worthy of replacing TT right now. I don't know the answers to these questions, but certainly Schenider and McKenzie have departed and done well stocking the cupboards for their new teams. It seems fair to discuss.

 

[Mondio]

replacement happens, but it takes time. All of those guys are worth of mention. They are all pretty good at their jobs given time. It's evident Reggie was going to be a good GM. I thought he would be, and filling his shoes in this organization doesn't just "happen". It takes a team from top to bottom and just like theirs replacement on the field, it happens in the front office too.

There is one guy at the top making decisions, but it's not one all knowing person that makes it go. People have no patience or understanding for anything it seems.

One day Ted will walk away, and while not perfect, you don't just luck your way into building a couple really good teams. you don't luck your way into having multiple future successful GM's on the staff you build. I can understand people not liking all of his decisions, I can't understand people not recognizing just how good he has been though. It's all luck LOL

 

[Firethorn1001]

My biggest gripe with TT, and plenty of others, is his extreme unwillingness to dip into free agency to fill holes and treating every single draft pick like it is a bar of gold. He is like a boxer that goes to a fight and says "Hey, tie my right hand behind my back"

I get it, draft and develop. Problem is, when you miss on a position in draft and develop (and you will), you can't let it fester for years and years before you get it right. We beat our head against the walls for years waiting for them to address various positions - S, ILB, TE when there were veteran options out there that could have helped. Not talking about throwing stupid money at players, just guys in the 5-7 year window that can help out.

One thing those other guys don't share with TT is they do have a willingness to use the other tools in their toolbox to supplement their team building.

 

[Mondio]

My biggest gripe with TT, and plenty of others, is his extreme unwillingness to dip into free agency to fill holes and treating every single draft pick like it is a bar of gold. He is like a boxer that goes to a fight and says "Hey, tie my right hand behind my back"

I get it, draft and develop. Problem is, when you miss on a position in draft and develop (and you will), you can't let it fester for years and years before you get it right. We beat our head against the walls for years waiting for them to address various positions - S, ILB, TE when there were veteran options out there that could have helped. Not talking about throwing stupid money at players, just guys in the 5-7 year window that can help out.

One thing those other guys don't share with TT is they do have a willingness to use the other tools in their toolbox to supplement their team building.

yes, when you miss on a draft pick, it can take years before you can get it right. Nothing wrong with that statement, But you also have recognize that missing on a high priced FA can fester for years not only at that position, but others you were unable to address because of the cap implications. Or you say just get the mid level agents, ok, you miss, those guys don't cost peanuts either and you still have something that has affected at minimum one position when you don't hit. Or do you think that guys that are really good FA's are just sitting around waiting for a team to sign them for vet minimums? and for every stop gap guy that everyone seems to think are just sitting around every year, you take a roster spot from someone that could develop in a year or two and provide 5-10 years of solid play for 1 or 2 declining seasons from someone else.

None of these decisions is without detriment when it doesn't work. and being really good in a league where there are 10,000 variables isn't good enough, you must be perfect or you suck.

another things those guys don't share? Dorsey hasn't won a super bowl on his own, Mckenzie hasn't yet either and Schnieder has done exactly what Ted thompson has done, and now must sustain it.

 

[Packer96]

TT lucked out that ARod FELL to us, he didn't go up and get him so quit giving him all the credit, not like he made a major move for him. Last night was an example of one player carrying a team while running for his life on a hell of a lot of his passes. It all starts up front and on both sides of the ball we don't have it. We can't run, and we can barely stop a team with a rookie QB and no receivers. That wasn't the Cowboys against us last night.

 

[AmishMafia]

Other teams are having success with rookie QBs lately. Dak in Dallas as well as Wentz earlier in the season and Russel a few years ago. Maybe it is time we part with Rodgers and see what we have in his backup.

Not really. But makes as much sense. Cupboard bare? I don't see that at all. Under performing and injury bug bit are all from coaching issues and not personnel issues. TT is still one of the best in the business.

 

[OldSchool101]

TT lucked out that ARod FELL to us, he didn't go up and get him so quit giving him all the credit, not like he made a major move for him. Last night was an example of one player carrying a team while running for his life on a hell of a lot of his passes. It all starts up front and on both sides of the ball we don't have it. We can't run, and we can barely stop a team with a rookie QB and no receivers. That wasn't the Cowboys against us last night.

Exactly. If anything, We could argue that TTs reluctance to move up to grab a franchise 1st round QB (Aaron) rather than letting him slip across the board was a dangerous gamble OR maybe TT knew exactly what each team in front of him needed most position wise so he's a probability genius. IMO it was pure luck because he has shown on occasion his MO is to trade up for players he deems worthy, even into the 1st round

we are missing a game changing RB and it showed against the Eagles substandard #19 ranked rushing D

 

[easyk83]

We've debated on here many times about whether it's time for TT to go and whether or not Elliot Wolf should be given the job. After watching the 9-2 Raiders take another big step towards establishing themselves as a top team, I thought about our dearly departed Reggie McKenzie. Obviously TT benefited from having John Schneider as his #2 in the early years and then McKenzie as his #2 for a few seasons. Since 2011, he has essentially been TT's #2 guy as I understand it, gaining promotions in title to keep him from leaving.

However, up until last night pundits and forum members have been talking about the lack of explosive players coming out of TT's drafts in recent years. It's fair to wonder about how bare the cupboard has become in TT's personnel department, how much influence Wolf has in drafting decisions in recent years, and whether or not he is worthy of replacing TT right now. I don't know the answers to these questions, but certainly Schenider and McKenzie have departed and done well stocking the cupboards for their new teams. It seems fair to discuss.

On offense its tough to find players who are smart enough run the Rodgers spread option(Option in that every receiver is basically running an option route) who is also fast/explosive enough to be a big play threat.

I think that with Teddy we had 2 really bad drafts from 11-12 and a so so draft in 13, although 12 is looking better right now. I think that this year is a mix of stale offensive/defensive schemes, a rash of injuries in just one position group and yes an offense with a lack of real playmakers on offense apart from Rodgers. With the Defense it's hard to tell how much of this team's problems are talent versus coaching, with Capers he has a track record. Brilliant success in his second season a DC then steady decline.

 

[swhitset]

yes, when you miss on a draft pick, it can take years before you can get it right. Nothing wrong with that statement, But you also have recognize that missing on a high priced FA can fester for years not only at that position, but others you were unable to address because of the cap implications. Or you say just get the mid level agents, ok, you miss, those guys don't cost peanuts either and you still have something that has affected at minimum one position when you don't hit. Or do you think that guys that are really good FA's are just sitting around waiting for a team to sign them for vet minimums? and for every stop gap guy that everyone seems to think are just sitting around every year, you take a roster spot from someone that could develop in a year or two and provide 5-10 years of solid play for 1 or 2 declining seasons from someone else.

None of these decisions is without detriment when it doesn't work. and being really good in a league where there are 10,000 variables isn't good enough, you must be perfect or you suck.

another things those guys don't share? Dorsey hasn't won a super bowl on his own, Mckenzie hasn't yet either and Schnieder has done exactly what Ted thompson has done, and now must sustain it.

While this is correct, I think to be successful a GM has to be willing to take a few chances in both arenas. There is no guarantee that he will choose correctly, I do think it is necessary to try. Ted has done a decent job drafting, but certainly not perfect. Several of his free agent acquisitions have also been successful.. ie Woodson, Peppers... I would even say Cook. While Cook wasn't available enough... and his production has been sketchy... he didn't cost much either. I would like to see more attempts at guys like him.... They all don't have to be all Pros... just serviceable replacements in areas of need.

 

[Sky King]

Other teams are having success with rookie QBs lately. Dak in Dallas as well as Wentz earlier in the season and Russel a few years ago. Maybe it is time we part with Rodgers and see what we have in his backup.

Not really. But makes as much sense. Cupboard bare? I don't see that at all. Under performing and injury bug bit are all from coaching issues and not personnel issues. TT is still one of the best in the business.

Agreed, as long as the discussion is limited to drafting success, only, during the past decade.

 

[El Guapo]

As for my initial cupboard bare comment, that was referring to the talent in the personnel department under TT....not necessarily the players themselves

 

[Mondio]

As for my initial cupboard bare comment, that was referring to the talent in the personnel department under TT....not necessarily the players themselves

Losing those guys does hurt, but he found and brought them up. The guy is good at his job and will identify and bring new guys up. My guess is he'll find some good ones again. But it might take a bit of time because nothing happens overnight.

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

Other teams are having success with rookie QBs lately. Dak in Dallas as well as Wentz earlier in the season and Russel a few years ago. Maybe it is time we part with Rodgers and see what we have in his backup.

Not really. But makes as much sense. Cupboard bare? I don't see that at all. Under performing and injury bug bit are all from coaching issues and not personnel issues. TT is still one of the best in the business.

I agree with Rodgers being the best (or second best behind Brady) in the business. I've been disappointed in TT's lack of willingness to dip into free agency to plug holes. The Packers have a once-in-a-generation quarterback talent. Why has he not had a tight end since Jermichal Finley retired? Why has he NEVER had a running back who could catch the ball out of the backfield? You cannot deny that the cupboard is bare at tight end and running back. TT should have used any means necessary to make sure that Rodgers has weapons.

I also have a big problem with the way that TT addresses the defensive line. So many high draft picks have been used on the defensive line with little to nothing to show for it. Excluding Kenny Clark, the Packers have used high draft picks (first three rounds) on Khyri Thornton, Datone Jones, Jerel Worthy, and Mike Neal. Call it "under performing" or being just plain bad, but those are a lot of players drafted very high who have contributed very little to the team. The best defensive line draft pick was Mike Daniels in the fourth round.

I also hate the "draft and develop" model when the Packers draft and develop a guy like Casey Heyward then let him go.

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

Losing those guys does hurt, but he found and brought them up. The guy is good at his job and will identify and bring new guys up. My guess is he'll find some good ones again. But it might take a bit of time because nothing happens overnight.

It has to happen when Rodgers is still young enough and good enough to be an elite quarterback.

 

[Half Empty]

I agree with Rodgers being the best (or second best behind Brady) in the business. I've been disappointed in TT's lack of willingness to dip into free agency to plug holes. The Packers have a once-in-a-generation quarterback talent. Why has he not had a tight end since Jermichal Finley retired? Why has he NEVER had a running back who could catch the ball out of the backfield? You cannot deny that the cupboard is bare at tight end and running back. TT should have used any means necessary to make sure that Rodgers has weapons.

I also have a big problem with the way that TT addresses the defensive line. So many high draft picks have been used on the defensive line with little to nothing to show for it. Excluding Kenny Clark, the Packers have used high draft picks (first three rounds) on Khyri Thornton, Datone Jones, Jerel Worthy, and Mike Neal. Call it "under performing" or being just plain bad, but those are a lot of players drafted very high who have contributed very little to the team. The best defensive line draft pick was Mike Daniels in the first round.

I also hate the "draft and develop" model when the Packers draft and develop a guy like Casey Heyward then let him go.

Fourth round?

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

Fourth round?

I made the correction. The post makes sense now!

 

[mradtke66]

I also hate the "draft and develop" model when the Packers draft and develop a guy like Casey Heyward then let him go.

I didn't like losing him, but letting him go was the right call at the time. It's only bad in hindsight.

He only had one good year, his rookie year. Since then, he was up and down and injured. I wouldn't have paid him what SD gave him.

In hindsight, yeah, we should have kept him, and probably cut Shields, but that's only hindsight.

 

[Packer96]

Other teams are having success with rookie QBs lately. Dak in Dallas as well as Wentz earlier in the season and Russel a few years ago. Maybe it is time we part with Rodgers and see what we have in his backup.

Not really. But makes as much sense. Cupboard bare? I don't see that at all. Under performing and injury bug bit are all from coaching issues and not personnel issues. TT is still one of the best in the business.

How would our QB be playing behind the Dallas line? He would put up 45 every game. Dak also has a TE, and a back who can catch passes from the backfield, something unheard of in TT's world.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I would not cry if Thompson and Capers were given gold watches.

McCarthy? I have little problem with him.

 

[OldSchool101]

While this is correct, I think to be successful a GM has to be willing to take a few chances in both arenas. There is no guarantee that he will choose correctly, I do think it is necessary to try. Ted has done a decent job drafting, but certainly not perfect. Several of his free agent acquisitions have also been successful.. ie Woodson, Peppers... I would even say Cook. While Cook wasn't available enough... and his production has been sketchy... he didn't cost much either. I would like to see more attempts at guys like him.... They all don't have to be all Pros... just serviceable replacements in areas of need.

Exactly. We have learned this lesson about Leaders who are indecisive, or Trying to win by attrition in a long term war. "Little Mac" was a Union General that approached this philosophy that turned into the seven days war of retreat (although he greatly outnumbered his opponent) Time and time again he retained his resources out of fear of committing. His larger army was chased by General Lee during the Seven Days War. Then Mcclellan failed again by acting like a Dom Capers and staying to the rear where he could not rally his men at Antietam and thus became inneffective in uncoordinated attacks throughout the day. While his force could've crushed his opponent he kept reserves and miscalculated the weakness of his opponent while they reinforced from Harpers Ridge (sound familiar?) then lost one of the most historic and deadly battles fought on US soil because of his reluctance to bring in reserves, although he would've easily crushed his opponent, Fear kept him at bay.
Keeping too much $ on hand is like overpaying your taxes and allowing the IRS to hold your overpayment so you have a"nest egg" at tax time. Trust me the IRS loves you

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

I didn't like losing him, but letting him go was the right call at the time. It's only bad in hindsight.

He only had one good year, his rookie year. Since then, he was up and down and injured. I wouldn't have paid him what SD gave him.

In hindsight, yeah, we should have kept him, and probably cut Shields, but that's only hindsight.

In hindsight, LaDarius Gunter is possibly the worst corner in the NFL, but boy is he cheap!

 

[swhitset]

In hindsight, LaDarius Gunter is possibly the worst corner in the NFL, but boy is he cheap!

Nah he's not even close to the worst.... we had worse on this team lol.

 

[King of Jeans]

m.d. jennings was worse

 

[Poppa San]

In hindsight, LaDarius Gunter is possibly the worst corner in the NFL, but boy is he cheap!

Now that Randalls and Rollins look to be back, Gunther will look much better not having to cover the Desean Jacksons of the league by himself.

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

Now that Randalls and Rollins look to be back, Gunther will look much better not having to cover the Desean Jacksons of the league by himself.

Rollins hasn't looked very good either. Let's not get overly excited about the job done against Philadelphia. Jordan Matthews didn't play most of the game and that team lacks quality receivers.