The Cupboard under TT

[NelsonsLongCatch]

m.d. jennings was worse

Technically a safety

 

[ARPackFan]

Going back to the original post -
Maybe Schneider and Mckenzie were more vocal in their options and challenged Thompson's decisions. Schneider had front office positions with other teams (Chiefs & Redskins) and McKenzie played for the Raiders. Both knew football outside of the Packers organization and brought outside views and options. Elliot Wolf has only been in the Packers organization since he graduated from College. I'm skeptical about promoting someone just because of a last name. Personally, I think what the packers need is less promote from within and more diversity by bringing in outsiders with differing viewpoints.

 

[mradtke66]

In hindsight, LaDarius Gunter is possibly the worst corner in the NFL, but boy is he cheap!

Problems with that statement:

A) He's not the worst. He's actually surprisingly good. He struggles with smaller, fast guys, but he does well against big guys that present a large target to jam at the line. In the mold of Richard Sherman (though he's not that good, obviously)

B) Gunter was not meant to replace or cover up the departure of Hayward. Shields, Randall, Rollins, and Hyde were. Gunter and Goodson were meant to be your fills in. That's a solid group, assuming everyone is reasonably healthy.

C) The contract Hayward was risky due to his injury history. I wouldn't have signed him for what SD gave him.

And the time his contract expired, he produced at an "average at best" rate. He's played great since.

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

Problems with that statement:

A) He's not the worst. He's actually surprisingly good. He struggles with smaller, fast guys, but he does well against big guys that present a large target to jam at the line. In the mold of Richard Sherman (though he's not that good, obviously)

B) Gunter was not meant to replace or cover up the departure of Hayward. Shields, Randall, Rollins, and Hyde were. Gunter and Goodson were meant to be your fills in. That's a solid group, assuming everyone is reasonably healthy.

C) The contract Hayward was risky due to his injury history. I wouldn't have signed him for what SD gave him.

And the time his contract expired, he produced at an "average at best" rate. He's played great since.

I disagree with "A". Gunter has been up and down all season and I've seen more down than up. For example, this is what what Pro Football Focus said about Gunter after the Dallas game:

• When targeting Gunter, Dallas rookie QB Dak Prescott had a passer rating of 156.3, just two points away from perfect, and Gunter compounded his poor coverage with ugly run defense and a missed tackle.

I agree with "B". Gunter was meant to be a #4 corner and was elevated due to injury. In an ideal season, he's only playing 12-15 snaps a game.

Point "C" is debatable. Heyward had a very good rookie season and played well whenever on the field. I'm curious where his "average at best" ranking that you mentioned came from. Pro Football Focus?

He's definitely better than Demetri Goodson!

 

[Carl]

My biggest gripe with TT, and plenty of others, is his extreme unwillingness to dip into free agency to fill holes and treating every single draft pick like it is a bar of gold. He is like a boxer that goes to a fight and says "Hey, tie my right hand behind my back"

I get it, draft and develop. Problem is, when you miss on a position in draft and develop (and you will), you can't let it fester for years and years before you get it right. We beat our head against the walls for years waiting for them to address various positions - S, ILB, TE when there were veteran options out there that could have helped. Not talking about throwing stupid money at players, just guys in the 5-7 year window that can help out.

One thing those other guys don't share with TT is they do have a willingness to use the other tools in their toolbox to supplement their team building.

Most guys who do use free agent more still don't build teams as good as TT has built though.

 

[Carl]

How would our QB be playing behind the Dallas line? He would put up 45 every game. Dak also has a TE, and a back who can catch passes from the backfield, something unheard of in TT's world.

Starks has done well catching the ball. Yesterday was a good example.

 

[Carl]

Exactly. If anything, We could argue that TTs reluctance to move up to grab a franchise 1st round QB (Aaron) rather than letting him slip across the board was a dangerous gamble OR maybe TT knew exactly what each team in front of him needed most position wise so he's a probability genius. IMO it was pure luck because he has shown on occasion his MO is to trade up for players he deems worthy, even into the 1st round

we are missing a game changing RB and it showed against the Eagles substandard #19 ranked rushing D

TT lucked out that ARod FELL to us, he didn't go up and get him so quit giving him all the credit, not like he made a major move for him. Last night was an example of one player carrying a team while running for his life on a hell of a lot of his passes. It all starts up front and on both sides of the ball we don't have it. We can't run, and we can barely stop a team with a rookie QB and no receivers. That wasn't the Cowboys against us last night.

It always amazes me when fans don't credit TT for Rodgers. About twenty other teams were not smart enough to pull the trigger even though Rodgers was rated good enough to go number one.

Some teams even passed on him twice.

TT was the one GM out of 20 something guys smart enough to pull the trigger on Rodgers.

 

[Carl]

TT lucked out that ARod FELL to us, he didn't go up and get him so quit giving him all the credit, not like he made a major move for him. Last night was an example of one player carrying a team while running for his life on a hell of a lot of his passes. It all starts up front and on both sides of the ball we don't have it. We can't run, and we can barely stop a team with a rookie QB and no receivers. That wasn't the Cowboys against us last night.

Running for his life? Rodgers had all day to throw. That statement makes it seem like you were watching a different game.

His scrambling was mostly after nobody was open.

I'll give you the run blocking wasnt good, but the pass protection has been excellent.

Plus, there were a lot more guys playing well yesterday. Giving up only 13 points sure doesn't seem like hardly stopping them.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

It always amazes me when fans don't credit TT for Rodgers. About twenty other teams were not smart enough to pull the trigger even though Rodgers was rated good enough to go number one.

Some teams even passed on him twice.

TT was the one GM out of 20 something guys smart enough to pull the trigger on Rodgers.

It was luck, as much as it was a good move. A draft in which every other team had "bigger needs" than a franchise QB. It's not like he traded up to get him, he was just sitting there when their pick was up.

 

[mradtke66]

I disagree with "A". Gunter has been up and down all season and I've seen more down than up. For example, this is what what Pro Football Focus said about Gunter after the Dallas game:

• When targeting Gunter, Dallas rookie QB Dak Prescott had a passer rating of 156.3, just two points away from perfect, and Gunter compounded his poor coverage with ugly run defense and a missed tackle.

I'll give you the Dallas game. However, his struggles started when he flipped sides. I don't think he is (or at least was at that game) good enough to flip sides. His technique is flipped and he flopped. Experienced vets can do that, he's a second year UDFA.

In defense, I give you the Atlanta game. Jones had 3 receptions, 29 yards. And Gunter shadowed him for almost the whole game.

Is he great? No. But he's probably good enough to be the 3rd CB if one of the outside guys slide to nickel and he replaces them outside. There's a small chance he would be fine as the no. 2 CB with a solid no 1. opposite him.

Point "C" is debatable. Heyward had a very good rookie season and played well whenever on the field. I'm curious where his "average at best" ranking that you mentioned came from. Pro Football Focus?

Nope. His rookie year was great and I was excited for the future. Every year after that was a wash.

Year 2: IR due to hamstring

Year 3: Demoted to dime behind Tramon, Shields, and House. Did snag 3 picks though.

Year 4: Given a chance to start as the outside CB. Only started 11 games. Zero picks.

He's definitely better than Demetri Goodson!

Yeah, but he's supposed to be your emergency CB and special team player. You wouldn't have Hayward playing gunner on punt coverage.

 

[swhitset]

It was luck, as much as it was a good move. A draft in which every other team had "bigger needs" than a franchise QB. It's not like he traded up to get him, he was just sitting there when their pick was up.

The Packers weren't exactly looking for a franchise QB then either, but Thompson recognized that Rodgers provided exceptional value.

 

[G0P4ckG0]

I think everyone is forgetting that McCarthy and Capers (mainly McCarthy) have a say in who gets drafted. If anything, Thompson's draft & develop philosophy is equally on McCarthy as it is on Thompson. Part of me thinks McCarthy has an ego to where he thinks he can coach any high school player into becoming an NFL MVP.

 

[swhitset]

I think everyone is forgetting that McCarthy and Capers (mainly McCarthy) have a say in who gets drafted. If anything, Thompson's draft & develop philosophy is equally on McCarthy as it is on Thompson. Part of me thinks McCarthy has an ego to where he thinks he can coach any high school player into becoming an NFL MVP.

a lot of conjecture here assumed to be facts

 

[Carl]

It was luck, as much as it was a good move. A draft in which every other team had "bigger needs" t IP inhan a franchise QB. It's not like he traded up to get him, he was just sitting there when their pick was up.

Passing on franchise QB due to other needs is a terrible move whether a team already has a good QB or not.

Look at the Vikings for example who passed on him probably because they had Culpepper.

Culpepper only lasted a couple more years and now they have to play against Rodgers in the same division.

It was not luck to be the one guy to finally pull the trigger.

I guarantee if Thompson had passed on Rodgers, fans wouldn't simply call it "unlucky."

 

[easyk83]

I disagree with "A". Gunter has been up and down all season and I've seen more down than up. For example, this is what what Pro Football Focus said about Gunter after the Dallas game:

• When targeting Gunter, Dallas rookie QB Dak Prescott had a passer rating of 156.3, just two points away from perfect, and Gunter compounded his poor coverage with ugly run defense and a missed tackle.

I agree with "B". Gunter was meant to be a #4 corner and was elevated due to injury. In an ideal season, he's only playing 12-15 snaps a game.

Point "C" is debatable. Heyward had a very good rookie season and played well whenever on the field. I'm curious where his "average at best" ranking that you mentioned came from. Pro Football Focus?

He's definitely better than Demetri Goodson!

Hayward was good in the slot but man his games at outside corner were brutal.

 

[easyk83]

Passing on franchise QB due to other needs is a terrible move whether a team already has a good QB or not.

Look at the Vikings for example who passed on him probably because they had Culpepper.

Culpepper only lasted a couple more years and now they have to play against Rodgers in the same division.

It was not luck to be the one guy to finally pull the trigger.

I guarantee if Thompson had passed on Rodgers, fans wouldn't simply call it "unlucky."

I honestly hate the luck argument, 23 GMs and front offices passed on Aaron Rodgers. Sometimes luck is just a reflection of making good decisions. Part of Teddy's acumen has been recognizing players who were artificially undervalued and picking them. Rodgers, Tedford product. Jennings, small school receiver. Collins, small school safety. Matthews not even a one year starter. Daniels, too short. Finley, too young. Nelson, white guy receiver. Randall was a converted safety picked high to play cornerback, Spriggs only emerged as a real prospect his final season. Rollins was a one year player at corner. Not sure if the last three will turn out but need I go on? The Rodgers pick wasn't just dumb luck it really did reflect an ongoing trend.

 

[Sky King]

A refresher on the happenings during the draft that Rodgers was chosen. From an insider:

http://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2...n-the-packers-war-room-drafting-aaron-rodgers

 

[Half Empty]

The Packers weren't exactly looking for a franchise QB then either, but Thompson recognized that Rodgers provided exceptional value.

Given the way things had started to go with Favre...maybe they were.

 

[Mondio]

A refresher on the happenings during the draft that Rodgers was chosen. From an insider:

http://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2...n-the-packers-war-room-drafting-aaron-rodgers

It's been evident throughout this pairing of TT and MM. No matter what people want to think about them, they have had success because they trust their work, their trust their plan, and they put their lives into working and making a plan. It's like everything else I've ever said, nobody is perfect, what makes a strength also reveals weakness. Favre and his approach to the game, won a lot, exciting as hell. One of the most successful and fun QB's I ever got to watch. MVP's and SUper bowls, but it got him into a lot of trouble too, he has a record for that. Take the good with the bad. Some even out, some surpass, some don't. Rodgers and his propensity to look for the big play. Beautiful when it's all working within the offense, offensive killer when it's all he's looking for.

Ted and Mike do their jobs, they trust in their ability and oh BTW, they're pretty good at what they do. It's not without it's drawbacks, but it doesn't mean they aren't good at what they do and it's exactly Ted's work and discipline that brought Aaron Rodgers to GB when we had a HOF'er that played for, what 4 more years with us, and 7 more total? It's not like he was done and it was a no brainer to draft Rodgers.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

We've debated on here many times about whether it's time for TT to go and whether or not Elliot Wolf should be given the job. After watching the 9-2 Raiders take another big step towards establishing themselves as a top team, I thought about our dearly departed Reggie McKenzie. Obviously TT benefited from having John Schneider as his #2 in the early years and then McKenzie as his #2 for a few seasons. Since 2011, he has essentially been TT's #2 guy as I understand it, gaining promotions in title to keep him from leaving.

However, up until last night pundits and forum members have been talking about the lack of explosive players coming out of TT's drafts in recent years. It's fair to wonder about how bare the cupboard has become in TT's personnel department, how much influence Wolf has in drafting decisions in recent years, and whether or not he is worthy of replacing TT right now. I don't know the answers to these questions, but certainly Schenider and McKenzie have departed and done well stocking the cupboards for their new teams. It seems fair to discuss.

It's extremely tough to evaluate Wolf as we don't have any information about moves that he either is responsible for or might have suggested to Thompson.

and for every stop gap guy that everyone seems to think are just sitting around every year, you take a roster spot from someone that could develop in a year or two and provide 5-10 years of solid play for 1 or 2 declining seasons from someone else.

It hasn't happened often though that a player who was at the bottom of the active roster for his first two seasons developed into a decent NFL player.

Most guys who do use free agent more still don't build teams as good as TT has built though.

That's mainly because of other teams not having a franchise quarterback though.

It always amazes me when fans don't credit TT for Rodgers. About twenty other teams were not smart enough to pull the trigger even though Rodgers was rated good enough to go number one.

Some teams even passed on him twice.

TT was the one GM out of 20 something guys smart enough to pull the trigger on Rodgers.

The Packers weren't exactly looking for a franchise QB then either, but Thompson recognized that Rodgers provided exceptional value.

There's no doubt Thompson deserves credit for drafting Rodgers but there was luck involved with the pick as well. Don't forget that Thompson tried to trade the pick for several minutes with the team already on the clock.

I think everyone is forgetting that McCarthy and Capers (mainly McCarthy) have a say in who gets drafted. If anything, Thompson's draft & develop philosophy is equally on McCarthy as it is on Thompson. Part of me thinks McCarthy has an ego to where he thinks he can coach any high school player into becoming an NFL MVP.

There were rumors last season about McCarthy getting more and more tired with Thompson's lack of free agency

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

Hayward was good in the slot but man his games at outside corner were brutal.

Totally agree. He was a real good slot corner.

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

I'll give you the Dallas game. However, his struggles started when he flipped sides. I don't think he is (or at least was at that game) good enough to flip sides. His technique is flipped and he flopped. Experienced vets can do that, he's a second year UDFA.

In defense, I give you the Atlanta game. Jones had 3 receptions, 29 yards. And Gunter shadowed him for almost the whole game.

Is he great? No. But he's probably good enough to be the 3rd CB if one of the outside guys slide to nickel and he replaces them outside. There's a small chance he would be fine as the no. 2 CB with a solid no 1. opposite him.

We're in agreement on this. Gunter was supposed to be a #4 corner. He was only supposed to play 12ish snaps per game and get experience on special teams. Unfortunately for him, Shields, Rollins, and Randall all got hurt. Hopefully he uses this season to build towards next season.

 

[swhitset]

Most guys who do use free agent more still don't build teams as good as TT has built though.

That argument, while true, is less an argument against using free agency and more of an indictment on the skill of those "lesser" GMs. I actually think Thompson is a pretty good GM overall. I just wish he would take a few more chances in free agency. Every draft choice is a calculated risk; I just want to see Ted take a few more risks in other areas as well.

 

[Pack-12]

Hayward was good in the slot but man his games at outside corner were brutal.

I can't think of too many bad games besides the one REAL bad game in Denver. He was still solid outside most of the year and was still really good when he was in the slot. It's not like San Diego gave him a gamebreaking deal or anything either he got what 15m/3 years. That's well worth it for one of the top slot corners in the game and a guy who can fill in outside here and there with certain match ups.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I can't think of too many bad games besides the one REAL bad game in Denver. He was still solid outside most of the year and was still really good when he was in the slot. It's not like San Diego gave him a gamebreaking deal or anything either he got what 15m/3 years. That's well worth it for one of the top slot corners in the game and a guy who can fill in outside here and there with certain match ups.

Hayward struggled mightily playing on the perimeter last season. It took Randall only four games to move ahead of him on the depth chart. There's no doubt he's a good slot cornerback but close to everyone following the Packers were fine with letting him walk away in free agency in March.