Team Changes for Next Season

[Sanguine camper]

Relaxing thresholds for everything makes sense to me. I wouldn't mind an xlnt 5'9" corner for instance.

I think the Packers went to a strict size threshold because of the bad experience they had with both Ahmad Carrol and Terrel Buckly. Both of those guys were small first round picks.

Jaire Alexander was right at their threshold and he didn't hold up to the rigors of the game which will probably make it even more doubtful that small guys will get drafted. I just think they need to make an exception for a kick returner.

 

[SudsMcBucky]

Yeah.
Randall Cobb was our last “good” Punt Returner. He was a ~10 yard per guy across a large sample. Hardman was comparable to Cobb, but his days were numbered after we drafted a pair of top 100 selections at WR in an already thick group.
Keisean Nixon was an obvious Premier KR.

I think the Packers found their KR. Savion Williams looked really solid and it was instantaneously. What I like about him is he’s nearly smaller TE sized but quick. He doesn’t look fragile anyway.

That leaves PR. Personally I’m looking for one of the top Special Teams players in the Draft that has a proven track record at PR and using one of our 7th Rounders there.

I’d have my attention on Kaden Wetjen
Ranked
# 9 in KR
#1 in PR

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I've mentioned this guy as a late day 3 (6th or 7th round) person I'd take in at least 2 previous threads. He would actually fill both the KR and PR roles.

 

[gopkrs]

Don't really know, but, given the overall athletic ability of all those 6'2"+ receivers, wouldn't that just mean heaving a lot of jump balls at the midget?

A lot of those short corners can really jump and get in good position. It depends on the player. We might not look at a guy that's below six one. And what can he do against six five anyway. I don't think there should be cut and dried limits where you take a player off your board because of height. jmo

 

[gopkrs]

I think the Packers went to a strict size threshold because of the bad experience they had with both Ahmad Carrol and Terrel Buckly. Both of those guys were small first round picks.

Jaire Alexander was right at their threshold and he didn't hold up to the rigors of the game which will probably make it even more doubtful that small guys will get drafted. I just think they need to make an exception for a kick returner.

Buchley actually had a long career in football. The Wisconsin cb was better though. Carrol just wasn't that good if I remember.

 

[gopkrs]

I think the Packers went to a strict size threshold because of the bad experience they had with both Ahmad Carrol and Terrel Buckly. Both of those guys were small first round picks.

Jaire Alexander was right at their threshold and he didn't hold up to the rigors of the game which will probably make it even more doubtful that small guys will get drafted. I just think they need to make an exception for a kick returner.

Alexander was a great pick for us. One of the best we've had. Imho

 

[Half Empty]

When he was good, he was very, very good, but in three of his seven years with the Pack, he played less than half of the games. I figure that's what 'he didn't hold up to the rigors of the game' was intended to convey.

 

[tynimiller]

Yeah, honestly only Nick Collins for me is more of that "what might have been guy" for the Packers when I think of Jaire. The dude was arguably THE BEST in the game there for his few prime healthy years...what could have been. *Honorable mention behind these to for me is Jermichael Finley.

 

[Magooch]

I think the Packers went to a strict size threshold because of the bad experience they had with both Ahmad Carrol and Terrel Buckly. Both of those guys were small first round picks.

Jaire Alexander was right at their threshold and he didn't hold up to the rigors of the game which will probably make it even more doubtful that small guys will get drafted. I just think they need to make an exception for a kick returner.

I agree but this is particularly an area in which our desire to have PR/KR as a WR option tends to limit us. We also have some (at least semi defined) size thresholds we want at WR. so the idea of signing a smaller KR/PR is like ALSO trying to convince the team to sign a WR beneath their desired size threshold. Generally speaking they wanna have guys at WR that are roughly 6'0" and 200lb+, although in recent years they have been somewhat more willing to roster a couple of guys below that size - but it feels like the smallest they want is still going to be like 5'10" and 190lb+. AND at least anecdotally....it feels like they only want to have one "small" WR on the field at a time.

That's also roughly our historic size threshold for DBs too, about 5'10" 190+ in most cases.

Soooo I'm with you, but until they get away from thinking that our PR/KR needs to also be a WR or CB or something, it's gonna be hard to get that kind of smaller shifty PR/KR type rostered

 

[mradtke66]

until they get away from thinking that our PR/KR needs to also be a WR or CB or something, it's gonna be hard to get that kind of smaller shifty PR/KR type rostered

The problem is pretty much everyone outside of the kicking specialists need to be "something" to be worth being active on game day.

We don't have to want our PR/KR to also be a WR, but we're one bad accident on a WR bubble screen to need him to play WR for at least the rest of the game.

 

[gopkrs]

The problem is pretty much everyone outside of the kicking specialists need to be "something" to be worth being active on game day.

We don't have to want our PR/KR to also be a WR, but we're one bad accident on a WR bubble screen to need him to play WR for at least the rest of the game.

Playing scared or what ifs? is not the way to run a football team. Especially if then you are not putting your best team on the field. If bad luck happens on that day; there are multiple ways of dealing with it.

 

[mradtke66]

Playing scared or what ifs? is not the way to run a football team. Especially if then you are not putting your best team on the field. If bad luck happens on that day; there are multiple ways of dealing with it.

You misunderstand. Something bad will eventually happen. When that bad happens, your dedicated return man will have to fill in somewhere/somehow. He should be good enough at a scrimmage position (WR, CB, RB, S) to at least survive the game when called upon.

 

[Magooch]

The problem is pretty much everyone outside of the kicking specialists need to be "something" to be worth being active on game day.

We don't have to want our PR/KR to also be a WR, but we're one bad accident on a WR bubble screen to need him to play WR for at least the rest of the game.

Yeah, I hear ya....my trouble is just that it feels like we kind of pigeon-hole ourselves.

Like, it's one thing to say "We want our KR to be able to also play WR" and that's fine...

But it's another thing to say "We want our KR to be able to also play WR, and to be able to play WR for us, you need to be at least 5'10" and 190lbs" because in that way you're effectively saying that that's also the minimum size requirement for our KR/PR by extension.

So I don't have any beef with trying to field guys who offer a bit more "roster utility" but like @Sanguine camper was saying it might serve us well to loosen that "threshold" a bit in this particular circumstance and be ok with having a KR/PR who *can* play WR even if they're a bit below our typically desired size/athleticism thresholds

 

[mradtke66]

Yeah, I hear ya....my trouble is just that it feels like we kind of pigeon-hole ourselves.

Like, it's one thing to say "We want our KR to be able to also play WR" and that's fine...

But it's another thing to say "We want our KR to be able to also play WR, and to be able to play WR for us, you need to be at least 5'10" and 190lbs" because in that way you're effectively saying that that's also the minimum size requirement for our KR/PR by extension.

So I don't have any beef with trying to field guys who offer a bit more "roster utility" but like @Sanguine camper was saying it might serve us well to loosen that "threshold" a bit in this particular circumstance and be ok with having a KR/PR who *can* play WR even if they're a bit below our typically desired size/athleticism thresholds

I'm not sure how pigeon-holed we actually end up being. I've only spent 30s, but there appear to be less than 20 players in the NFL under 5'10" right now.

I'd be willing to relax the standards a bit, but that requires identifying such a return man and being able to get him AND having that identified player happen to be under 5'10".

 

[tynimiller]

Playing scared or what ifs? is not the way to run a football team. Especially if then you are not putting your best team on the field. If bad luck happens on that day; there are multiple ways of dealing with it.

Your best team is often having a better CB or LB on the roster that will be more capable of playing than a return specialist that can do nothing else outside of a handful of plays a game.

 

[Magooch]

I'm not sure how pigeon-holed we actually end up being. I've only spent 30s, but there appear to be less than 20 players in the NFL under 5'10" right now.

I'd be willing to relax the standards a bit, but that requires identifying such a return man and being able to get him AND having that identified player happen to be under 5'10".

Considering both the height (5'10") and weight (~190lb+) thresholds we have typically targeted... Looking at all of the "above average" punt returners in the league (i.e. qualifying players who average better than league-average yards per return)
12/16 of such players are either right at or below our preferred threshold height and/or weight:

Marcus Jones - CB, NE - 5'8", 188lb
Marvin Mims - WR, DEN - 5'11", 182lb
Rashid Shaheed - WR, NO - 6'0", 180lb
Isaiah Williams - WR, NJY - 5'10", 185lb
Jaylin Lane - WR, WAS - 5'10", 196lb
Parker Washington - WR, JAX - 5'10", 204lb
Malik Washington - WR, MIA - 5'8", 195lb
LaJohntay Wester - WR, BAL - 5'9", 170lb
Skyy Moore - WR, KC - 5'10", 195lb
Greg Dortch - WR, AZ - 5'7", 180lb
Kameron Johnson - WR, TB - 5'10", 170lb
Ke'Shawn Williams - WR, CIN - 5'9", 188lb


As it stands, our smallest rostered WRs by height are either Golden and Reed (both 5'11"). By weight it's Reed (187lb) or Keeney-James (190lb). At CB we have Nixon as our shortest at 5'10" (200lb) and Jaylin Simpson (6'0", 180lb) or Carrington Valentine (6'0", 189lb) and Bo Melton (5'11", 189lb) as our lightest.

There are also 29 qualified KRs who logged a better-than-league-average yards per return. Now to be fair many of these are also the same as on PR (I. Williams, R. Shaheed, S. Moore, M. Washington, M. Mims, G. Dortch) but can also add in the following who also fail to exceed either or both our height/weight thresholds (I'm also removing guys who are RBs outside of ST duties as I think that's a whole different thing, haha. There are about 8 of those players who are predominantly RBs):
Tom Kennedy - WR, DET - 5'10", 195lb
Brandon Codrington - DB, BUF - 5'9", 185lb
Tyquan Thornton - WR, KC - 6'2", 185lb
KaVontae Turpin - WR, DAL - 5'9", 153lb

Now don't get me wrong. I don't think all of these are necessarily "rosterable" players (and in fact not all of them currently ARE rostered, as best I know ). but I guess in looking at that I would conclude that...the general size threshold for having an above-average returner seems to skirt awfully close to our minimum threshold for WR or even CB usage. So on one hand I don't think we really need to go hunting for guys built like Turpin (I wouldn't necessarily rule it out either) but if the smallest we want to go is guys sized like Golden or Reed (and that seems to be our bottom-end for size) i could see that being a bit limiting for us

BUT, with all that in mind, it's just a bit of a thought-exercise for me; I'm still not entirely convinced it's solely (or primarily) our returner (KR/PR) themself/themselves who is the biggest blame-factor for our below-average return game, and I'm not convinced that throwing a smaller and slightly more nimble guy back there would materially change much.

 

[mradtke66]

BUT, with all that in mind, it's just a bit of a thought-exercise for me; I'm still not entirely convinced it's solely (or primarily) our returner (KR/PR) themself/themselves who is the biggest blame-factor for our below-average return game, and I'm not convinced that throwing a smaller and slightly more nimble guy back there would materially change much.

To counter your thought: I think our lack of return success IS mostly tied to our lack of a good return man/men.

Our punt coverage is excellent, but we have an excellent punter. Our kick coverage is average, but we have an average kicker. Find the specialist and I'd expect both to immediately climb.

 

[milani]

Buchley actually had a long career in football. The Wisconsin cb was better though. Carrol just wasn't that good if I remember.

Buckley's issues were a little different. Carroll could not adjust to the pro illegal contact after 5 yard rule. In college at Arkansas you could hit receivers any time as long as the QB had not released the ball. He made his bones that way. In the NFL it became flag city.

 

[gopkrs]

Your best team is often having a better CB or LB on the roster that will be more capable of playing than a return specialist that can do nothing else outside of a handful of plays a game.

And then there is us. Which has neither

 

[Sanguine camper]

Alexander was a great pick for us. One of the best we've had. Imho

I don't disagree that Alexander was an excellent player. It's just that he didn't hold up. His short tenure created a huge hole in the roster that normally requires a top 20 pick in the first round to fix a CB#1.

 

[gopkrs]

I don't disagree that Alexander was an excellent player. It's just that he didn't hold up. His short tenure created a huge hole in the roster that normally requires a top 20 pick in the first round to fix a CB#1.

I don't think you can automatically blame that on his heighth.

 

[Sanguine camper]

Your best team is often having a better CB or LB on the roster that will be more capable of playing than a return specialist that can do nothing else outside of a handful of plays a game.

If a return specialist is good for making the goalposts 5-7 yeards shorter for the offense twice a game than the makeshift guys, that would seem to be a much bigger payoff that your typical #6 WR or CB who rarely makes much of an impact. Those handful of plays are going to quickly translate to points if field position is changed.

Think about it this way. If a specialist gives you an extra 6 yards twice a game. On one of those drives, you're kicking a shorter FG. That would probably work out an extra 6-9 points per season in a better FG percentage. That may not sound like much, but an extra 3 points can swing games 1-3 times per season.

 

[tynimiller]

If a return specialist is good for making the goalposts 5-7 yeards shorter for the offense twice a game than the makeshift guys, that would seem to be a much bigger payoff that your typical #6 WR or CB who rarely makes much of an impact. Those handful of plays are going to quickly translate to points if field position is changed.

Think about it this way. If a specialist gives you an extra 6 yards twice a game. On one of those drives, you're kicking a shorter FG. That would probably work out an extra 6-9 points per season in a better FG percentage. That may not sound like much, but an extra 3 points can swing games 1-3 times per season.

I get the importance of a solid returner...but eating an entire roster spot for one that is worthless elsewhere I likely personally won't ever be able to plant my flag there unless they are Hester or Patterson type level.

Bo Melton was a factor in 95 offensive snaps and had some monumental drops in pivotal games. #6WR

We had how many returns...

26 punt returns and 60 kickoff returns...86.

I still think Savion could be a real solid (not Hester) but solid type returner.

 

[Sanguine camper]

I don't think you can automatically blame that on his heighth.

It had more to do with his weight. The Packers like 'taller' CB's so they can cover big receivers, but Alexander was on the threshold for both height and weight. I'm not implying that Alexander wasn't a good pick, its just a little extra size at CB makes a difference on how guys normally hold up.

I think size thresholds make sense but it also makes sense to relax that threshold for a punt returner since the good ones are normally small.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Thanks for clarifying. Could be a case similar to Slaton's, where the Packers just aren't willing to pay a lot of money for inconsistent or one-dimensional production. It may end up being inexpensive to keep him. Hard to say what will happen in FA.

Gluten tried and faltered with Banks last year. Maybe find a C later in the draft. However they do it, Love deserves to have a steady C who will work with him for years.

Jenkins was supposed to be that guy. I just can't see having 3x olinemen making $24m/yr, and not be dominating up front.

I'm not sure how pigeon-holed we actually end up being. I've only spent 30s, but there appear to be less than 20 players in the NFL under 5'10" right now.

I'd be willing to relax the standards a bit, but that requires identifying such a return man and being able to get him AND having that identified player happen to be under 5'10".

Marshawn Lloyd , if he can stay healthy.

 

[mradtke66]

Jenkins was supposed to be that guy. I just can't see having 3x olinemen making $24m/yr….

Jenkins got old and his injuries caught up to him. Going to IR was just the nail in the coffin.

Tom did dominate, Banks started to find a groove by the end of the year, the rest of our top 6 (Walker, Rhyan, Belton, and Morgan) are all on rookie deals.