Reflecting on Gutey - Two Years In

RRyder

Cheesehead
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
1,721
Reaction score
144
So what you're implying is that any QB could've lead this squad to the NFC Championship? Gimme a break dude!

There are 2 QBs I would make the argument had the better season than Rodgers, the rest are debatable.

1. Lamar
2. Wilson

Brees didn't finish the season. Mahomes was banged up. Who else is there? Dak? Cousins? Watson? Brady? (Please say Brady had a better season! I dare you. XD )


Rodgers wasn't the "sole" reason, but he was a big contributing factor for us getting there.

Jesus christ. You can love Rodgers and not say stuff like that.

Rodgers was an extremely average QB last year. If you want to argue it was due to a new offense and lack of WRs then ok. Theres a reasonable argument to be made their. (Both sides can make valid arguments). Personally I'd argue that even with those limitations "if" Rodgers was playing nearly as well as some are saying he did then that would of been reflected on the field more then it was as it seemed that his accuracy even with open receivers was more of an issue then simply running the offense and making the reads.

But good lord to say that youd only argue 2 QBs had better seasons then Rodgers is just homerism at its finest. There were significantly higher then only 2 QBs that had better years. Rodgers wasnt even the most valuable or impactful player on our own offense (look at the on/off impact Jones had).

As for Gute. Hes been solid so far but it's still a lil early to judge. Probably batting around .600-.700 so far (which isnt bad by GM standards by any stetch) but he needs to get better early returns on his drafts as that seems to the weak link to his skill set at this point
 
Last edited:

Do7

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Nov 9, 2018
Messages
2,117
Reaction score
202
Jesus christ. You can love Rodgers and not say stuff like that.

Rodgers was an extremely average QB last year. If you want to argue it was due to a new offense and lack of WRs then ok. Theres a reasonable argument to be made their. (Both sides can make valid arguments). Personally I'd argue that even with those limitations "if" Rodgers was playing nearly as well as some are saying he did then that would of been reflected on the field more then it was as it seemed that his accuracy even with open receivers was more of an issue then simply running the offense and making the reads.

But good lord to say that youd only argue 2 QBs had better seasons then Rodgers is just homerism at its finest. There were significantly higher then only 2 QBs that had better years. Rodgers wasnt even the most valuable or impactful player on our own offense (look at the on/off impact Jones had).

As for Gute. Hes been solid so far but it's still a lil early to judge. Probably batting around .600-.700 so far (which isnt bad by GM standards by any stetch) but he needs to get better early returns on his drafts as that seems to the weak link to his skill set at this point
I'm well aware that I'm in the minority but other than Wilson and Lamar who were the two front runners of MVP who else was up there with them? Mahomes and Brees went down with injuries, you're going to tell me that Watson had the better year, or Dak?

I already said I'd have Mahomes, Brees, Wilson, and Lamar (out of respect that he won MVP this year, but the jury is still out on him) ahead of Rodgers, putting Rodgers at the 4-5 mark, based on body of work over these past two years. So explain to me how I'm being a homer. And I clearly emphasized that were two QBs you can make an argument for that had a better season than Rodgers (Having looking at that, that was poor wording on my part. Wilson and Lamar had a better season than Rodgers), but the rest I said are debatable meaning that you can make an argument that they had a better season but Rodgers is right in the mix. I'm really not trying to be one in all honesty, this is just my opinion. Not a popular one clearly, but mine nonetheless.
 
Last edited:

elcid

Cheesehead
Joined
Mar 11, 2017
Messages
728
Reaction score
81
So what you're implying is that any QB could've lead this squad to the NFC Championship? Gimme a break dude!

There are 2 QBs I would make the argument had the better season than Rodgers, the rest are debatable.
1. Lamar
2. Wilson

Brees didn't finish the season. Mahomes was banged up. Who else is there? Dak? Cousins? Watson? Brady? (Please say Brady had a better season! I dare you. XD )


Rodgers wasn't the "sole" reason, but he was a big contributing factor for us getting there.
No, he wasn't a big contributing factor. He was a factor. Aaron Jones was waaaaaay more of a factor. so was our D and all the other factors I've mentioned.

Of the top of my head, Mahomes/Jackson/Wilson/Brees/Watson are clearly better right now, and Wentz/Cousins/Prescott are definitely in the conversation. Heck, Tannehill prob had a better season. I'd also like to give some credit to Jimmy G, and Stafford has always been solid when he plays. I'm not much of a believer in Ryan, Roethlisberger, Brady and Rivers anymore.

I'm well aware that I'm in the minority but other than Wilson and Lamar who were the two front runners of MVP who else was up there with them? Mahomes and Brees went down with injuries, you're going to tell me that Watson had the better year, or Dak?

I already said I'd have Mahomes, Brees, Wilson, and Lamar (out of respect that he won MVP this year, but the jury is still out on him) ahead of Rodgers, putting Rodgers at the 4-5 mark, based on body of work over these past two years. So explain to me how I'm being a homer. And I clearly emphasized that were two QBs you can make an argument for that had a better season than Rodgers (Having looking at that, that was poor wording on my part. Wilson and Lamar had a better season than Rodgers), but the rest I said are debatable meaning that you can make an argument that they had a better season but Rodgers is right in the mix. I'm really not trying to be one in all honesty, this is just my opinion. Not a popular one clearly, but mine nonetheless.
AR played half a season in 2018. Sure, he did some good things then, but he was mostly unavailable. It's like voting players to the Pro Bowl or into the top 100 purely on name recognition.

AR has not been great by any means, and DEFINITELY not top 5 in 2018 or 19. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Like @RRyder said, it can be due to numerous reasons (a mediocre WR group, first year under a new offense). I don't fault Aaron completely for it. But at this point, he has not earned his huge contract yet. I have not giving up on him, he can return back to elite status. But he has to prove it next season, and prove he has earned the FO breaking the bank for him.
 
Last edited:

Dantés

Gute Loot
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Messages
10,233
Reaction score
1,206
"It's not an opinion, it's a fact" is a pretty hilarious argument.
 

elcid

Cheesehead
Joined
Mar 11, 2017
Messages
728
Reaction score
81
"It's not an opinion, it's a fact" is a pretty hilarious argument.
I know rite?

AR didn't even play half a season in 2018, making it literally unattainable for him to be a top 5 QB over the past 2 years. Also, there is an extremely solid argument to be made that he wasn't even top 5 in 2019 alone. If we would look to all the different QB statistics over the past 2 years, even if we make room for a factor of personal opinion on him, there is literally no way he ranks in the top 5. And most certainly when accounting for costs. Therefore not opinion, but FACT.

But honestly, I am done having discussions on the topic of AR's level of grandeur. Some believe he still is some football god and everything but AR has been holding the Pack back to another SB. Others look at AR as critically as they do to other players on the roster. At the end of the day it doesn't look like either camp is going to defect to the other side any time, so I see no point.
 

Dantés

Gute Loot
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Messages
10,233
Reaction score
1,206
I know rite?

AR didn't even play half a season in 2018, making it literally unattainable for him to be a top 5 QB over the past 2 years. Also, there is an extremely solid argument to be made that he wasn't even top 5 in 2019 alone. If we would look to all the different QB statistics over the past 2 years, even if we make room for a factor of personal opinion on him, there is literally no way he ranks in the top 5. And most certainly when accounting for costs. Therefore not opinion, but FACT.

But honestly, I am done having discussions on the topic of AR's level of grandeur. Some believe he still is some football god and everything but AR has been holding the Pack back to another SB. Others look at AR as critically as they do to other players on the roster. At the end of the day it doesn't look like either camp is going to defect to the other side any time, so I see no point.

I agree that there's a solid argument that he wasn't a top 5 QB in 2019.

However, it is not true that missing games in 2018 makes it unattainable. We are talking about level of play, not volume of play. By that logic, you'd have to say that Watson and Mahomes were worse than him in 2019 because they didn't play full seasons.
 

captainWIMM

Cheesehead
Joined
Jul 23, 2012
Messages
25,676
Reaction score
1,312
Of the top of my head, Mahomes/Jackson/Wilson/Brees/Watson are clearly better right now, and Wentz/Cousins/Prescott are definitely in the conversation. Heck, Tannehill prob had a better season. I'd also like to give some credit to Jimmy G, and Stafford has always been solid when he plays.

Yet only Mahomes and Garropolo made it further into the playoffs than Rodgers and the Packers.

AR didn't even play half a season in 2018, making it literally unattainable for him to be a top 5 QB over the past 2 years. Therefore not opinion, but FACT.

While I agree that Rodgers hasn't been a top five quarterback over the past two years the only FACT is that he didn't miss any games in 2018.
 

elcid

Cheesehead
Joined
Mar 11, 2017
Messages
728
Reaction score
81
I agree that there's a solid argument that he wasn't a top 5 QB in 2019.

However, it is not true that missing games in 2018 makes it unattainable. We are talking about level of play, not volume of play. By that logic, you'd have to say that Watson and Mahomes were worse than him in 2019 because they didn't play full seasons.
You can still be ultra productive and extremely important for your team, even when missing a few games. It gets harder if you miss more than half of the season. And while I agree that it is about level of play, a bigger sample size increases the trustworthiness of said level of play.

That being said, AR missed half the season in 2017 and not in 2018, therefore I feel like a complete tool right now. However, I also do feel like it supports my initial argument, as I can barely recall any noteworthy things he did in 2018, and therefore, question whether he has been worth the contract we gave him
 
Last edited:

elcid

Cheesehead
Joined
Mar 11, 2017
Messages
728
Reaction score
81
While I agree that Rodgers hasn't been a top five quarterback over the past two years the only FACT is that he didn't miss any games in 2018.

Yes, I was ever so unfortunate to find out just now. My bad amigo.

Yet only Mahomes and Garropolo made it further into the playoffs than Rodgers and the Packers.

Which further strengthens my point. The majority of the credit goes to our roster (solid Oline, good RB group, a D that shows up when needed) and we have had luck with health and schedule. Yet some people will go to extreme lengths to hang it all on Aaron's coat rack.
 

AmishMafia

Cheesehead
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
Messages
6,420
Reaction score
1,399
Location
PENDING
Yet only Mahomes and Garropolo made it further into the playoffs than Rodgers and the Packers.



While I agree that Rodgers hasn't been a top five quarterback over the past two years the only FACT is that he didn't miss any games in 2018.
And in 2018, 18 QBs made it further.
"It's not an opinion, it's a fact" is a pretty hilarious argument.
It is not a fact, but opinion. It is a fact, however, that in QB rating statistics, Aaron Rodgers is in the middle 1/3 of QBs.
 

captainWIMM

Cheesehead
Joined
Jul 23, 2012
Messages
25,676
Reaction score
1,312
The majority of the credit goes to our roster (solid Oline, good RB group, a D that shows up when needed) and we have had luck with health and schedule. Yet some people will go to extreme lengths to hang it all on Aaron's coat rack.

Rodgers definitely deserves credit for the Packers making it to the NFCCG, especially considering the team most likely had one of the worst receiving corps in the entire league.

While some numbers support he wasn't a top five QB he ranks sixth in yards, first (by a landslide) in interception percentage and TD/INT ratio and tied for fifth in fourth quarter comebacks and game winning drives over the past two seasons.
 

Dantés

Gute Loot
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Messages
10,233
Reaction score
1,206
And in 2018, 18 QBs made it further.
It is not a fact, but opinion. It is a fact, however, that in QB rating statistics, Aaron Rodgers is in the middle 1/3 of QBs.

I'm not a huge Rodgers apologist. It's my personal opinion that he's still better than where his stats would have him, but that his play has not been what it was. You still see the brilliance at times, but the consistency is lacking. His surrounding talent has eroded, but some of it is still on him. I don't think he's top 5 anymore, but I do think he's still top 10.

But I've been pretty consistent in saying that unless his play takes a step forward in year 2 with Petals, I'd be fine with them seeking out a successor in the 2021 draft.

I'm not really trying to convince anyone that Rodgers is still an elite QB. I'm just pointing out some of the weaker arguments (e.g. he missed time, so he can't be top 5).
 

RRyder

Cheesehead
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
1,721
Reaction score
144
I'm not a huge Rodgers apologist. It's my personal opinion that he's still better than where his stats would have him, but that his play has not been what it was. You still see the brilliance at times, but the consistency is lacking. His surrounding talent has eroded, but some of it is still on him. I don't think he's top 5 anymore, but I do think he's still top 10.

But I've been pretty consistent in saying that unless his play takes a step forward in year 2 with Petals, I'd be fine with them seeking out a successor in the 2021 draft.

I'm not really trying to convince anyone that Rodgers is still an elite QB. I'm just pointing out some of the weaker arguments (e.g. he missed time, so he can't be top 5).

This is a fair take even if certain parts could be debated. (for instance I could argue that Rodgers is slightly outside of the top ten). Its actually a stance I agree with for the most part

But a take like this isnt what I was talking about in my reply. I was talking about the poster who said that only 2 QBs played better LAST season and still putting Rodgers in his top 5 based on his body of work the last two years.

Could he regain that form? Yes

But there isnt really a standard or metric that can be used from last two seasons that would rank Rodgers as top 5 QB and it would seem that if one is ranking him that high its based more off his name being Rodgers
 

AmishMafia

Cheesehead
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
Messages
6,420
Reaction score
1,399
Location
PENDING
18 teams made the playoffs in 2018???
Okay 12 QBs, and another 6 finished with a better record.

Please note you had to deflect

If you are going to rate Rodgers highly because of the Packers record, then you have to say he was a marginal QB based on his poor record in 2018.
 

Dantés

Gute Loot
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Messages
10,233
Reaction score
1,206
This is a fair take even if certain parts could be debated. (for instance I could argue that Rodgers is slightly outside of the top ten). Its actually a stance I agree with for the most part

But a take like this isnt what I was talking about in my reply. I was talking about the poster who said that only 2 QBs played better LAST season and still putting Rodgers in his top 5 based on his body of work the last two years.

Could he regain that form? Yes

But there isnt really a standard or metric that can be used from last two seasons that would rank Rodgers as top 5 QB and it would seem that if one is ranking him that high its based more off his name being Rodgers

Yeah, I get that. There are some who are just going to stick him up there, no matter what.

One thing that makes it so cloudy is that there are extenuating circumstances in all of the recent seasons that could explain what has happened, production wise.

In 2017, he missed a good chunk of the season with the clavicle. In 2018, he played through a sprained MCL that clearly limited him for most of the season. In 2019, he was playing in a new offense for the first time with questionable pass catching talent.

None of that proves that Rodgers is still the same elite QB, but it creates the possibility that something other than decline is taking place.

It's for this reason that I've circled 2020 as his season to prove that he's still got it. He will be in year 2 in the offense and, we hope, will be healthy. So if he's still that sort of ~95 QB Rating that he's been since 2017, then I think fans will just have to accept that that's the new reality.
 

captainWIMM

Cheesehead
Joined
Jul 23, 2012
Messages
25,676
Reaction score
1,312
But there isnt really a standard or metric that can be used from last two seasons that would rank Rodgers as top 5 QB and it would seem that if one is ranking him that high its based more off his name being Rodgers

Well, aside there is with TD/INT ratio, interception percentage, fourth quarter comebacks, game winning drives as well as him being close in passing yards (sixth).

Don't get me wrong, I agree that Rodgers hasn't performed at the elite level Packers fans get accustomed to for most of his career but he hasn't been as terrible as a lot of fans want others make to believe.

If you are going to rate Rodgers highly because of the Packers record, then you have to say he was a marginal QB based on his poor record in 2018.

As I've mentioned repeatedly I don't believe Rodgers has performed at an elite level over the past two seasons. But there are other factors than him declining that have massively contributed to it.
 

elcid

Cheesehead
Joined
Mar 11, 2017
Messages
728
Reaction score
81
It's for this reason that I've circled 2020 as his season to prove that he's still got it. He will be in year 2 in the offense and, we hope, will be healthy. So if he's still that sort of ~95 QB Rating that he's been since 2017, then I think fans will just have to accept that that's the new reality.

Thank you. This is precisely what I am thinking and was trying to say. As of right now, he hasn't played up to his contract. Sorry if I came across as impatient but that is generally how I feel when yet another statue is erected for Arod. Don't get me wrong, I am very happy that we have him as our QB. But fact is, he has not been the same the past few years, for whatever reason(s).
 

RicFlairoftheNFL

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Messages
764
Reaction score
34
I'm fairly certain you need to research cost of franchise QBs across the NFL before making this statement. Sort by overall and by cost yearly, and just 2020.

While he is definitely not the cheapest option, he is FAR from the most expensive or anyone would argue an issue given whom he is.


Just because Brady at 42 got 30 Million after winning 6 rings doesn't mean Rodgers who has 1 ring deserves 33 and a half Million. I'm not the one who needs to do research.
 

Do7

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Nov 9, 2018
Messages
2,117
Reaction score
202
I agree that there's a solid argument that he wasn't a top 5 QB in 2019.

However, it is not true that missing games in 2018 makes it unattainable. We are talking about level of play, not volume of play. By that logic, you'd have to say that Watson and Mahomes were worse than him in 2019 because they didn't play full seasons.
We can also add in Brees in that as well.
 

tynimiller

Cheesehead
Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
5,331
Reaction score
513
Just because Brady at 42 got 30 Million after winning 6 rings doesn't mean Rodgers who has 1 ring deserves 33 and a half Million. I'm not the one who needs to do research.

Oh my word....let's use an anomaly of a QB in the history of the NFL and current QBs to make a point. Neither direction of a stance should rely on outliers.
 

Do7

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Nov 9, 2018
Messages
2,117
Reaction score
202
Oh my word....let's use an anomaly of a QB in the history of the NFL and current QBs to make a point. Neither direction of a stance should rely on outliers.
Dude don't bother.
 

Dantés

Gute Loot
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Messages
10,233
Reaction score
1,206
Just because Brady at 42 got 30 Million after winning 6 rings doesn't mean Rodgers who has 1 ring deserves 33 and a half Million. I'm not the one who needs to do research.

If only they had followed your counsel and drafted Mason Rudolph in the first round...
 

captainWIMM

Cheesehead
Joined
Jul 23, 2012
Messages
25,676
Reaction score
1,312
Just because Brady at 42 got 30 Million after winning 6 rings doesn't mean Rodgers who has 1 ring deserves 33 and a half Million. I'm not the one who needs to do research.

The number of Super Bowl rings isn't the best indicator to evaluate quarterback performance.

Otherwise Eli Manning would be a better quarterback than Rodgers and Brees.
 
Top