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Question about Last second Player count

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by ThinkICare, Jan 26, 2010.

  1. ThinkICare

    ThinkICare Cheesehead

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    I was just wondering if it is the QB who is suppose to count all the players on offense, right before they execute the play. Does anyone know how that works? I listen to Jason Wilde's podcast and a fan asked him that question relating to the 12 men on the field penalty the Vikings received. Whether BF is responsible for that or that's someone elses job.
     
  2. Jess

    Jess Movement!

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    From what i've read, a Viking coach saw Tahi on the sidelines and thought he was supposed to be in on the play so he sent him out there.

    Brett tried to call TO to avoid the penalty (a penalty in itself, because a team can't call 2 timouts in a row, and a 15 yarder at that), so I don't really blame him. He saw the problem and tried to avoid it. It's more on the coach that sent Tahi out there, I think.
     
  3. Mr. StyleZ

    Mr. StyleZ Banned Banned

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    Uh, I doubt the QB counts all the players every time there is a huddle. Can't say for sure who is responsible, but I would say the players and coaches equally..

    One thing is interesting if you are looking for another Brent Blunder... Originally as soon as the flag was thrown, I thought it was for Unsportsmanlike Conduct (Calling consecutive timeouts) and a 15 yard penalty. It appeared to me like the coaches realized how many guys were in the huddle and told Favre in through his earpiece in which his reaction was to try to cover it up by calling timeout. lol

    EDIT: Sorry, Jess.. Didn't mean to repeat you.. your post wasn't there when i began mine.
     
  4. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    It's not the QBs job.

    What happens is that it creates confusion on the other team, so having, even for a moment, 12 men in the huddle draws a penalty.

    The fault can lay on different people, but never the QB.

    It's the playcaller's job to choose the formation.

    Sometimes, he's also the one that chooses the players. But a lot of times it's the position coach who summons the players.

    So I don't know if it was the RB coach who called Tahi, if they have a FB coach, if it was the playcaller (I believe it's the OC, Bevell, who calls the plays and not Chilly) that made the wrong decision, or if it was Tahi himself who got confused.

    Or even if Chilly was supposed to be supervising it and could've prevented it.

    But Favre got absolutely nothing to do with it.
     
  5. charlotte

    charlotte Cheesehead

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    I just read an article that stated that there were two plays being considered on the sideline. Both plays involved different player packages. The player that was in the huddle by error was in the package that was discarded.

    We have two schools of thinking in play here as to blame:

    1. the personnel on the sideline should have been better at communicating which players should be there and which players shouldn't. So massive failure to communicate properly by the coaches.

    2. It is the job of the quarterback to count the players in the huddle. I repeat...it is the job of the quarterback to count the players in the huddle. Period. So we have a failure by Farve to perform his duties.


    Checks and balances, people. And it was a massive fail.
     
  6. ThinkICare

    ThinkICare Cheesehead

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    Alright, I really had no idea on that subject. Thanks for the responses.



    Haha RS
     
  7. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    How can it be the QB's fault? The penalty is drawn as soon as there's 12 men in the huddle, and the ref sees it. And Favre was laying the play. Was he supposed to, while looking at his teammates trying to tell the play, see if anybody's coming to the huddle that wasn't supposed to?

    It may be Favre's job to count players, but as soon as Tahi entered the huddle, it was penalized. IMO there's nothing he could've done.
    I didn't get the joke... Of course, I'm kinda slow, so...
     
  8. Clay's Jock Strap

    Clay's Jock Strap TRK's Hero

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    I am pretty sure this penalty was on the coaching staff. From what I have read, it was complete chaos on the Vike sidelines before that play - coming out of a TO. Inexcusable.

    Chilly, I love you man!
     
  9. AllouezPackerFan

    AllouezPackerFan Section 121 Row 47

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    Couldn't have said this better myself.:viksux:
     
  10. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Yes, coaching staff, but not necessarily Childress.

    Actually, I'm pretty sure Childress had almost nothing to do with it.

    There's only a matter of if he could've prevented it or not, but I believe it's definitely not him who called the plays and who summoned the players to the huddle.
     
  11. Forget Favre

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    Your answers, PackersRS, bring up some questions I have about football and the way it works.

    So are there certain players who will only go out there to assist on certain plays? Like they would sit on the bench until they go out there for a particular play that is used, then when it's over go back to the sidelines?
    Or does every player know what to do for every situation and is always capable of handling it?

    Is there a coach for every position?

    So some head coaches call in plays (Like McCarthy-right?) and others do not?
    If there are those who don't then who does? Like who does Childress talk to on the headset?
    I just wonder who says what to whom on those head sets? I would love to listen in.
    (I doubt their talking to guys about Coors Light. LOL)
     
  12. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Packages. FB back in the 60s and 70s, even in the 80s, was a glamurous position. Jim Taylor and John Riggins comes to mind. It may be back with Toby Gerhart, but he'll probably be used as a RB.

    So, some players only plays some packages. We tend to use the 3 receivers set more than any other formation, so usually the FB is replaced by Nelson or Jones.
    Yes, but depends. Nowadays, in offense there's
    the QB coach,
    the RB coach (that in some teams, depending on their philosophy, instructs the FBs),
    the WR coach,
    the TE coach (which in some teams, instructs the FBs),
    and the OL coach (which in some teams, instructs the FBs). I don't know any team that has a FB coach, but the Vikings might be one, I don't know, may be saying stupid things in here.

    In defense, it depends if it's a 3-4 or a 4-3.
    3-4 : DL coach, ILB coach, OLB coach, CBs coach and S coach.
    4-3: DE coach, DT coach, LB coach, CBs coach and S coach.

    Also, there's usually assinstant coaches for some positional coaches, and one positional coach is also the assistant head coach. Not to mention the Coordinators, the Defense and Offense quality controllers and the Strenght and Conditioning coach.

    Some offensive minded coaches call the plays on offense, some defensive minded coaches call the plays on defense, some just supervise the action and makes key decisions like timeouts, challenges. Some that don't call make the playbook, but usually the playbook is composed by the coach and the OC/DC.

    If it's not the coach that calls, it's the Coordinator's job to do it. Usually, on offense, at least, the QB coach also have a say. And usually the QB is given 3 options, 2 passes and a run. Some have even more leverage to change plays in the LOS.

    But the plays the OC/DC calls are pre-determined by down and distance, and key situations like 4th downs are determined by the coaches all the time if they're going for it, kicking or punting. Or doing tricks (fake punt).

    So, most of the time, even if the coaches don't precisely pick the play, they determinate what's going to be called, on key situations.

    About the head sets, the DC/HC talks to the captain, giving hints and instructions, and the OC/HC talks to the QB.

    -

    Hope it helps, I may have said a lot of BS in here, so if anyone care to correct me...
     
  13. charlotte

    charlotte Cheesehead

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    The way it's always been explained to me, then reinforced by an article (can't put my finger on it now - the husband takes this stuff to VA Hospital as soon as they're read) and several different commentators on ESPN the other day....

    The huddle is formed and the QB is the last person to enter it. He must be sure of the number of players before approaching the huddle.

    Farve didn't count, entered the huddle, and the refs (who had already counted the players), threw the flag.

    Ergo...first fault lies with sideline coaching personnel and the second fault lies with Favre.
     
  14. ThinkICare

    ThinkICare Cheesehead

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    Since there was a Timeout though right before, it's on Childress and his offensive coaches. Simply inexcusable.
     
  15. Clay's Jock Strap

    Clay's Jock Strap TRK's Hero

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    Childress on a defining penalty | StarTribune.com

    Q. As far as the penalty, was fullback Fahu Tahi the extra man and was running backs coach Eric Bieniemy responsible for sending him onto the field? How did that unfold?
    A. "It was a 30-second timeout and you look back through the timeline. I got questions about how we started the 2-minute drive, we typically try to conserve our timeouts until the last minute unless we've got a gain of 10 or 15 yards that we can't get up and get to the ball [because] it takes a while for those linemen to get down there. But that was a 30-second timeout and we had talked about the same play with two different personnel groupings. The initial conversation was about a personnel grouping with a tailback and a fullback and we ended up settling on a tight end, three-wide type of operation [there actually were two tight ends and two wide receivers in the huddle] and we had the fullback in the huddle. Typically, when you hold your guys as we do, because [the Saints] are looking from that sideline to try to see what personnel you have, you're running people on and people are running off. But Tahi had gone into the game because that was the first part of the conversation and it's an error in communication and it all comes back to me not having it over-communicated."
    Q. When did you realize that 12 guys were out there?
    A. "Just as we broke the huddle and we had just come out of calling a timeout. You can't call back-to-back timeouts. That's the rules. So it was going to be a penalty one way or the other, breaking the huddle with the too many men or calling a timeout."
    Q. At that point, is there anybody on the staff that is supposed to be looking for that or is it just too late?
    A. "I've heard at least -- because I haven't read the accounts, it's too hard to read the accounts -- of chaos [on the Vikings sideline]. I think everybody was over communicating with their position group, that's what those guys do. Everybody was talking in ear pieces and listening, coaching your group, coaching your guys. Is there anybody responsible? Yeah, they all hold up their hands, telling what position group is coming in the game because you can't always hear in those environments. It's a visual type of thing and typically you see a quarterback step away if there are too many people in the huddle. [Favre] was listening to [offensive coordinator Darrell Bevell] give him the signal and he wasn't ... we don't count [the players] every single time in the huddle. Tahi was kind of squatted down on the other side."
     
  16. charlotte

    charlotte Cheesehead

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    You can bet that when there's that much confusion in the future, they'll be counting.
     
  17. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Yeah, I don't remember exactly, but I think Tahi got on the huddle after it was formed... So nothing Favre could've done.
     
  18. Clay's Jock Strap

    Clay's Jock Strap TRK's Hero

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    Actually, they came close to getting a 15 yard penalty. If favre had called a TO, I believe it is a 15 yarder calling a TO right after a TO.
     
  19. Forget Favre

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    Either way I think it was fortunate that they were penalized at all.
    It could have been a running play instead.
    Saints got a lucky break from Viqueens mistake. (Hey-A rhyme.)

    Any ideas on why a penalty for back to back TOs?
    :butcher:
     
  20. Clay's Jock Strap

    Clay's Jock Strap TRK's Hero

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    Zebra Report Addendum: The Real Answer to the Back-to-Back Timeouts Question -- NFL FanHouse

    Special thanks to a collegiate official for sending along the NFL rules ... and I'll note here that it's maddening the NFL doesn't provide it's official rulebook anywhere online like the MLB does.

    Anyway, remember the question about why the officials let the play clock run out on Eli Manning when he tried to call back-to-back timeouts?

    People were wondering why Joe Gibbs was penalized 15 last year for doing the same thing?

    Well, it's not the same thing at all. Gibbs was trying to "freeze the kicker." The NFL has a specific rule to deal with this ...


    [SIZE=+0]1. Rule 4-5-1 item 3 states that: "a second charged timeout by either team during the same dead ball period is prohibited." Penalty - 5 yards Delay of Game - This is what Manning did.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=+0]2. Rule 4-5-1, item 4 states that "An attempt to call ... a second timeout in the same dead ball period by Team B in an attempt to 'freeze' a kicker shall be considered unsportsmanlike conduct and will subject the offending team to a 15 yard penalty." This is what Gibbs did.[/SIZE]
     
  21. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Thanks, man. Had no idea about that. Very elucidative.
     
  22. Forget Favre

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    Yes it was helpful.
    Thank you.
    :clapping:
     

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