Packers 1st round selection, #12 overall: Rashan Gary, DE

[Sunshinepacker]

I get your angle, but really all you have to do is watch Gary and you can already see the progress he has made. Is he a FHOF player? Who knows, but at least he is trending upwards, the shoulder injury that many seemed overly concerned about hasn't flared up and his motor just keeps running despite some of the criticism thrown his way.

I agree, he's certainly heading in the right direction. I just want to see him playing more snaps (note, I have no idea how many he played against Denver but it appeared he was on the field more often than prior games). Oh, and he also needs to hydrate better.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Oh, and he also needs to hydrate better.

I would be very happy if that is all people can find to b*tch about when it comes to a Gary.

BTW, Gary played 26 snaps (36%).

 

[PackAttack12]

I agree, he's certainly heading in the right direction. I just want to see him playing more snaps (note, I have no idea how many he played against Denver but it appeared he was on the field more often than prior games). Oh, and he also needs to hydrate better.

6 snaps against the Bears
14 snaps against the Vikings
26 snaps against the Broncos

 

[Sunshinepacker]

6 snaps against the Bears
14 snaps against the Vikings
26 snaps against the Broncos

Going in the right direction. Has Gary mostly been OLB when ZSmith moves to DT? Cause I don't think the Smiths are taking enough plays off for Gary to play that often.

 

[tynimiller]

I mean, 6 seconds from snap to sack doesn't sound like he ran right through the tackle, unless I'm misreading this? He's young and I'm looking forward to him proving Gute (and others) right, but I'm glad he showed the hustle to stick with the play and keep going after the QB. He appears to be earning more playing time from Gute and if he keeps it up he might prove he was the 12th best player in the draft.

Don't judge a play you haven't even watched LOL....

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Don't judge a play you haven't even watched LOL....

Did I judge it? I asked for clarification. I'm trying NOT to judge it without context; and yes, I watched the play live, just haven't watched the replay.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Going in the right direction. Has Gary mostly been OLB when ZSmith moves to DT? Cause I don't think the Smiths are taking enough plays off for Gary to play that often.

Both Smiths are seeing less snaps each game. If I had to guess, this has been by design and so far, looks to be a great design.

P. Smith: Game 1: 99% Game 2: 88% Game 3: 86%

Z. Smith: 92, 86, 81

https://www.lineups.com/nfl/snap-counts/green-bay-packers-snap-counts

 

[Dantés]

Gary' sack was both impressive and unimpressive in different respects. I timed the sack at 4.2 seconds, which is not fast.

He was chipped by Fumagalli, which obviously slowed him down. After that point, Gary's path to the QB was way too wide. This is why it took him so long to get to Flacco. It takes him about 1.5 seconds to get from the chip to the right tackle. And that's not because he's slow, but rather because his path is unnecessarily long and upfield. The shove from Fumagalli did push him upfield, but he seems to continue that direction beyond what was necessitated by the shove.

But the impressive part is what happens when he actually reaches the right tackle. He blows him aside upon initial contact and goes right by him to Flacco.

In a way, this play is a good microcosm of what Gary is as a player right now. His explosive power and athleticism was on full display in blowing that tackle up, but his lack of a refined pass rush plan was exposed in how long it took him to reach the POA.

 

[Dantés]

I've hand timed the sack off of the replay a half dozen times. From snap to hitting Flacco, I get a low of 4.1 and a high of 4.4. It's somewhere in that range-- between 4 and 4.5.

 

[HardRightEdge]

way more i'd say.

edit: perhaps not as much as i thought. found these...

league ave by year...https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/NFL/index.htm

team by team back to 2003...https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/plays-per-game

The more interesting, and perhaps surprising, comparison is to 1977. The most significant set of rule changes favoring the passing game came in 1978: the 5 yard chuck rule, offensive linemen allowed to use their hands, and QB protections.

In 1977, the pass/run play split was 17/37 = 64 vs. the gradual rise in passing to 35/28 = 63 in 1995 where it has remained relatively stable since other than a slight tick down in rushing plays, two fewer since 1995.

There are other plays not counted in these stats. Penalties, +1 since 1977. There are also sacks, not recorded as an official stat until 1982. It would stand to reason that throwing twice as much since 1977 would lead to more sacks not recorded in the pass attempts.

Still, where did all the clock time go in a pass happy league with incompletions stopping the clock?

One factor is KO and punt returns. Back in the day, those kicks were routinely returned, burning incremental clock. Now, its an series of touchbacks and fair catches.

It's also worth considering that back in the day when teams ran the ball 37 times there were a fair number of what were called "sweeps" where the runner would be tackled out of bounds. Today, the "outside zone" as it is called in Green Bay today, a variation of which McCarthy also ran, has become increasingly popular, the concept being to get defender momentum to the outside opening up inside cutback lanes. You don't see many runs today where the ball carrier turns the corner and gets tackled out of bounds.

Another factor is the frequency of play stopage for a measurement. With all that short yardage running back in the day, you might see a couple of those per game. Now, they're uncommon. Has there even been one in the Packers first three games this season?

Perhaps the more perplexing factor in comparing 1977 to current conditions is the play clock was 30 seconds back in the day. However, back in the day you wouldn't see no-huddle or hurry-up offenses outside the 2 minute drill. Now you could see it any point in a game which would account for some offset to the longer play clock. The Wyche/Esiason offense in the late 80's, and then the Kelly K-Gun in the early 90's where Buffalo would run hurry-up for an entire game, initiated the concept of hurry up outside the end of halfs.

I'm sure there are a lot of other factors I'm not thinking of.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I've hand timed the sack off of the replay a half dozen times. From snap to hitting Flacco, I get a low of 4.1 and a high of 4.4. It's somewhere in that range-- between 4 and 4.5.

I've timed it 5 times and come up with 4.1657892152

The good news....his motor kept running and he got there. As you stated earlier, as his technique improves, he will get there even faster next time.

I can't help but smile when I think he is learning from the Smith Brothers. Preston's strip sack was a thing of beauty.

Edit: Speaking of keeping his motor running, I remember looking at a lot of Preston Smith highlights when the Packers signed him and loved them. I missed this one, but talking about keeping your motor running, watch who eventually recovers his strip sack fumble.

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[easyk83]

Gary' sack was both impressive and unimpressive in different respects. I timed the sack at 4.2 seconds, which is not fast.

He was chipped by Fumagalli, which obviously slowed him down. After that point, Gary's path to the QB was way too wide. This is why it took him so long to get to Flacco. It takes him about 1.5 seconds to get from the chip to the right tackle. And that's not because he's slow, but rather because his path is unnecessarily long and upfield. The shove from Fumagalli did push him upfield, but he seems to continue that direction beyond what was necessitated by the shove.

But the impressive part is what happens when he actually reaches the right tackle. He blows him aside upon initial contact and goes right by him to Flacco.

In a way, this play is a good microcosm of what Gary is as a player right now. His explosive power and athleticism was on full display in blowing that tackle up, but his lack of a refined pass rush plan was exposed in how long it took him to reach the POA.

I have to respectfully disagree, I think Gary heading further up field kept the RT moving his feet laterally and prevented him from bracing his body or even moving out to challenge Gary further away from Flacco. That wide arc forced him to keep a purely defensive posture. If you notice right before contact Gary stutter stepped a bit hinting at and showing a bit of an inside move, the RT moved his feet once again to counter but instead of a dedicated inside move Gary converted speed to power and bullrushed/shocked the RT back into Flacco's face which forced Flacco to tuck the ball and cease his progression.

It's not just the time that Skinny hit the ground or the time that Gary wrapped up, we have to look at when Gary not only negatively affected the quarterbacks throwing process but that he actually stopped it before the sack. Experienced quarterbacks might be able to stand tall with an incoming pressure but its another matter entirely when its one of their own OLs getting tossed back into their face.

 

[greengold]

I mean, 6 seconds from snap to sack doesn't sound like he ran right through the tackle, unless I'm misreading this? He's young and I'm looking forward to him proving yGute (and others) right, but I'm glad he showed the hustle to stick with the play and keep going after the QB. He appears to be earning more playing time from Gute and if he keeps it up he might prove he was the 12th best player in the draft.

He was chipped by their TE first. See for yourself.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-...ops-Joe-Flacco-for-big-loss-on-first-NFL-sack

 

[Dantés]

I have to respectfully disagree, I think Gary heading further up field kept the RT moving his feet laterally and prevented him from bracing his body or even moving out to challenge Gary further away from Flacco. That wide arc forced him to keep a purely defensive posture. If you notice right before contact Gary stutter stepped a bit hinting at and showing a bit of an inside move, the RT moved his feet once again to counter but instead of a dedicated inside move Gary converted speed to power and bullrushed/shocked the RT back into Flacco's face which forced Flacco to tuck the ball and cease his progression.

It's not just the time that Skinny hit the ground or the time that Gary wrapped up, we have to look at when Gary not only negatively affected the quarterbacks throwing process but that he actually stopped it before the sack. Experienced quarterbacks might be able to stand tall with an incoming pressure but its another matter entirely when its one of their own OLs getting tossed back into their face.

We will have to disagree on that. The wide arc appeared neither part of a plan, nor particularly helpful to me.

 

[greengold]

We will have to disagree on that. The wide arc appeared neither part of a plan, nor particularly helpful to me.

Yeah, it was just a chip, Gary recovered and plowed through the RT Wilkerson to sack Flacco. He was lined up as either the 7 or 9 Tech on that. Gary is FAST!!! Great to see.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Gary' sack was both impressive and unimpressive in different respects. I timed the sack at 4.2 seconds, which is not fast.

He was chipped by Fumagalli, which obviously slowed him down. After that point, Gary's path to the QB was way too wide. This is why it took him so long to get to Flacco. It takes him about 1.5 seconds to get from the chip to the right tackle. And that's not because he's slow, but rather because his path is unnecessarily long and upfield. The shove from Fumagalli did push him upfield, but he seems to continue that direction beyond what was necessitated by the shove.

But the impressive part is what happens when he actually reaches the right tackle. He blows him aside upon initial contact and goes right by him to Flacco.

In a way, this play is a good microcosm of what Gary is as a player right now. His explosive power and athleticism was on full display in blowing that tackle up, but his lack of a refined pass rush plan was exposed in how long it took him to reach the POA.

Your stop watch looks to be right. I would debate some of the other points.

Note that Flaco is in a 10 yard drop when Gary embarked upon that path, with Falco then stepping up to 8 yards. There's a lot of ground to cover. 4.2 seconds, give or take, is not a poor time to the QB in that situation after a chip. I don't see an issue with his "pass rush plan" on this play. Engaging the tackle head-on puts him in position to close off the the inside or outside escape routes and for a moment Flaco had either of those avenues open.

Now, nobody should ever expect to see Gary do a Mack or Miller dip and rip, sliding under the OT's hands with a free run to the QB under the 2.0 second mark. Those don't happen all that often anyway. Gary's just not that kind of player. It bears repeating: speed-to-power is the raw material that was drafted and this play is evidence for that.

Compare to Preston Smith's strip sack on a 7 yard drop. He makes an initial inside move followed by an arm-under technique to the outside eluding the block. That is some polished technique. Then again, this is a guy in his 5th. rodeo and why those second contract guys are expensive. He may have even set the tackle up for that move after a couple of rushes to the tackle's inside shoulder.

Gary does not currently possess those kinds of techniques. We knew that going in. He lacks counter moves and the subleties of hand work. Recently I saw a note stating that Gary scored a 9 on the Wonderlic test. Odds are answering all the questions randomly would yield a higher score. This suggests he's not going to conceptualize technique, rather grind his way into it by repetition. For now expect quick off the snap and a dangerous bull rush like we saw on that play.

Next step: arm extension to keep the tackle from getting into his body as he turns the corner. How much that torn labrum is bothering him is an open question. Another open question as to why he has not developed this technique is whether he has struggled maintaining balance and forward momentum when attempting it. That remains to be seen.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Recently I saw a note stating that Gary scored a 9 on the Wonderlic test.

You had to give the anti-Gary movement THAT?

It is "strange" how he reportedly scored a 9 on his Wonderlic and yet was a Two-time Academic All-Big Ten honoree?

Now either he just had an off day on his Wonderlic or maybe the academic standards at Michigan aren't that high? Or the third option, the people taking his tests, shouldn't have done so well? I guess the 4th option and not wanting to open up the whole "Wonderlic accuracy" thing, but maybe his 9 doesn't say anything about his football intelligence?

 

[HardRightEdge]

You had to give the anti-Gary movement THAT?

It is "strange" how he reportedly scored a 9 on his Wonderlic and yet was a Two-time Academic All-Big Ten honoree?

Now either he just had an off day on his Wonderlic or maybe the academic standards at Michigan aren't that high? Or the third option, the people taking his tests, shouldn't have done so well? I guess the 4th option and not wanting to open up the whole "Wonderlic accuracy" thing, but maybe his 9 doesn't say anything about his football intelligence?

Well, maybe he's not unintelligent, just a slow processor, a grinder. Maybe he got through 12 questions and left the rest blank.

My experience, though admittedly quite dated, is even at an elite institution if you're taking squishy liberal arts courses, scout out the "gut" courses, show up to class and do the work, even if not of any particular quality, you'll get a "gentlemen's B". If you take good notes and parrot back to the professor in a paper what he lectured you have a good shot at an A.

It is possible to grind your way to a decent GPA, especially if the major is Pro Athlete Prospect with a minor in General Studies. I don't know what Gary's major was, but that Wonderlic would indicate it wasn't wasn't mathematics.

I see you put a smily face in there, but seriously I don't care what the anti-Gary ranks may think. He's a projection on evident traits. That there are possible reasons he does not reach those projections is evident. On balance, I remain liking this pick. There's a high ceiling and the floor is not that low. By all accounts he's a good citizen and a hard worker. I expect grinding progress. Keep in mind that few edge rushers, like WRs, typically do all that well in rookie seasons. What you look for is incremental progression.

As it stands, his one sack and one QB hit on limited snaps is as or more productive than Miller/Chubb's combined zero sacks and three QB hits (all Chubb's) over three games, playing under Fangio, a defensive "genius".

 

[greengold]

Rashan Gary is diagnosed as dyslexic.

... still, smart as F when it comes to football, and other meaningful life issues that mean more.

Talk about a misunderstood guy, and a great guy! Wow. I think we really hit it big with drafting Rashan Gary at #12 overall. We will see.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Coverage definitely helped on Gary's sack but he made a huge play and deserves credit for it. Hopefully he will continue to make an impact like that.

 

[gbgary]

ugh! timing the poor guys sack? he made a good play. 28 popped out of the backfield and was open for a short gain on 1st and 10...flacco just held the ball. if either of the smith bruthas had done it people would be pumping it up. come on.

 

[greengold]

ugh! timing the poor guys sack? he made a good play. 28 popped out of the backfield and was open for a short gain on 1st and 10...flacco just held the ball. if either of the smith bruthas had done it people would be pumping it up. come on.

How many "Agree"s can I pump into this thing?

 

[sschind]

ugh! timing the poor guys sack? he made a good play. 28 popped out of the backfield and was open for a short gain on 1st and 10...flacco just held the ball. if either of the smith bruthas had done it people would be pumping it up. come on.

The guy could return a fumble 99 yards and get pushed out at the 1 and some people would complain that he didn't score.

 

[RRyder]

We discuss whether a sack is more due to coverage or just a great rush all the time but now it's an issue when its Gary?

 

[Dantés]

We discuss whether a sack is more due to coverage or just a great rush all the time but now it's an issue when its Gary?

I defended the Gary pick when it has happened and have continued to defend him against critics. If anything, I am biased in his favor. But I timed it because I saw 6 seconds out there, and that seemed wrong. 4.2 still isn't great, but it's much better than 6.

And yes, that does matter. Because most of the time that a QB has over 4 seconds to get rid of the ball, he will. A 2.5 second sack is a great feat. And yet, I was still careful to highlight the aspects of that play that were exceptional.