Off to the races.

[El Guapo]

When Adams was about to come back, I'm pretty sure that I was the only one poo-pooing the immediate impact that many were predicting. The offensive and defensive woes are much larger than just Player X or Player Y being out of the lineup. Seasons like 2010 have shown that it's not about who is missing, it's about how the players on the field play.

I don't blame the coaches as much for what's happening as I do the players. The horses are in place they just aren't focusing on the carrot right now. They'll get it turned around. I'm not worried.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm not in panic mode by any means, but I am in "realist" mode when looking at the game yesterday and the Packers performance thus far this season and the teams they have won and lost to. Before concluding that the 4th quarter yesterday means the offense is back, remember something that we are all far too familiar with, Panthers had us down by 23 points before their defense may have softened to allow the game to get close. I look at the other 3 quarters as being more indicative of where the Packers are on offense and defense and it really isn't good, especially on Defense.

I'm more confident that this offense is going to find its groove, it has the talent. Playing some weaker teams will definitely help the offense to self fix itself. The Defense has me more concerned. I honestly do not think we have the talent on that side of the ball to be a top 15 defense, without some drastic improvement. Our pass rush is non existent, unless we blitz. Our linebackers don't seem to be in position to stop runs or cover short passes. Our secondary not only looks confused out there, but can't tackle at times.

All that being said, we are going to win some more games and make the play-offs, but unless the Defense figures itself out, they are going to continue to make the offense dig us out of holes. This may work against the lesser quality teams, but come playoffs, we won't survive long.

 

[broguy]

When Adams was about to come back, I'm pretty sure that I was the only one poo-pooing the immediate impact that many were predicting. The offensive and defensive woes are much larger than just Player X or Player Y being out of the lineup. ...

I agree with this partially, but disagree to a large extent.

On the first point, I absolutely agree that we have some bigger issues that need to be addressed. Particularly, I think offensive play calling and decision making needs to be more aggressive. As I said a few posts back, we're only going as far as Rodgers will carry us this year, and him being conservative with the lack of play makers around him (with Nelson out and given the rough season from Lacy) isn't going to get us far. And this isn't a knock on Rodgers. When you have guys like Cobb and Nelson and a productive Lacy you should be conservative and let those guys make plays. But he's gotta take on a bigger role this season and take some chances - the second half yesterday was encouraging IMO. Defensively we also have some holes and potential scheme issues that we might not be able to be address in-season.

However, a lot of our woes can be placed on individual players being out. Nelson being out completely changes our offense, and we're a different team without him. Unfortunately we won't get him back, so we need to adjust and form a new identity. Shields being out has killed not only our secondary but has really hurt our pass rush the last two games. It's hard to get pressure when a QB can find a wide open guy in 3 seconds. It's unfair to assume that a team can replace a top CB and not miss a beat (especially when you've got another major contributor at cb out in Rollins). Not a lot of teams could recover from that kind of blow. As for the "Seasons like 2010 have shown that it's not about who is missing, it's about how the players on the field play." comment, that's absolutely right, and we're just not very good defensively without our top CB. Fortunately we'll be getting him back soon, and to assume that won't make a big difference is pretty preposterous.

 

[broguy]

Pokerbrat - I think that's a very reasonable position. However, I'm not saying the offense is "back", I'm just saying there were some promising signs in that quarter. Rodgers very clearly forced some throws in the second half that he hasn't made all season, and I think it was a good thing. Hopefully he builds off of that and shoulders more of the load. He had 239 of his 369 passing yards (or 65%) in the second half

As for the defense, I agree that we have some bigger issues that wont be solved just by getting everyone healthy. But I think being healthy takes us from terrible to good enough to win games. Whether that's top 15 or not, I'm not sure.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It's unfair to assume that a team can replace a top CB and not miss a beat (especially when you've got another major contributor at cb out in Rollins).

I agree with most of your post but while Rollins had a huge impact against the Rams his contribution during the other seven game has been minimal with him playing only 9.8% of the defensive snaps.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Have to disagree about having Shields and Rollins out as being a huge impact on the way the Defense is playing. Shields went down in the Denver game, I didn't see him helping to keep Rivers from throwing for 500+ yards. Rollins, not a starter, not a major contributor (yes, 2 interceptions in the Rams game). The problem I am afraid goes deeper then that. Hayward being a big part of it IMO. I don't think Hayward is a starter and his stats and play thus far show that. IMO TT knew this and its why he used his 2 first draft choices on the position. His mistake was not finding someone suitable to play the position until Randall or Rollins were truly ready to start. Yes, having Shields out hurts us, but having Hayward starting doesn't help us.

Bottom line, IMO......TT got cheap this off season and didn't address ILB or immediate help at CB (I don't consider Randall or Rollins as immediate help, future yes) and its showing.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Have to disagree about having Shields and Rollins out as being a huge impact on the way the Defense is playing. Shields went down in the Denver game, I didn't seem him helping to keep Rivers from throwing for 500+ yards. Rollins, not a starter, not a major contributor (yes, 2 interceptions in the Rams game). The problem I am afraid goes deeper then that. Hayward being a big part of it IMO. I don't think Hayward is a starter and his stats and play thus far show that. IMO TT knew this and its why he used his 2 first draft choices on the position. His mistake was not finding someone suitable to play the position until Randall or Rollins were truly ready to start. Yes, having Shields out hurts us, but having Hayward starting doesn't help us.

I expect Shields and Randall to start on the outside with Hayward being the nickel corner once all corners are healthy.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I expect Shields and Randall to start on the outside with Hayward being the nickel corner once all corners are healthy.

I totally think you are right. Ha Ha needs some coaching right now too. Someone also needs to point out that Raji could snap him in two and eat him for breakfast. That little sideline clip was probably my most disappointing aspect of the game, frustrated teammates on what appears to be a disconnected team.

 

[broguy]

Okay, you and WIMM are right. I definitely overstepped the realm of reasonable argument by calling Rollins a major contributor, but losing a starter and a guy who could potentially fill in some snaps still hurts.

As for the rest of the disagreement, I don't think we're too far off. I agree that our d has bigger issues, and I've already said as much. I just think that getting Shields back will make a sizable difference from what we've seen the last two weeks - regardless of what Rivers did to us with Shields playing. Shields/Hayward or Shields/Randall is a huge upgrade from Hayward/Randall. And I agree with WIMM, I hope it's Shields/Randall.

 

[azrsx05]

Have to disagree about having Shields and Rollins out as being a huge impact on the way the Defense is playing. Shields went down in the Denver game, I didn't seem him helping to keep Rivers from throwing for 500+ yards. Rollins, not a starter, not a major contributor (yes, 2 interceptions in the Rams game). The problem I am afraid goes deeper then that. Hayward being a big part of it IMO. I don't think Hayward is a starter and his stats and play thus far show that. IMO TT knew this and its why he used his 2 first draft choices on the position. His mistake was not finding someone suitable to play the position until Randall or Rollins were truly ready to start. Yes, having Shields out hurts us, but having Hayward starting doesn't help us.

Bottom line, IMO......TT got cheap this off season and didn't address ILB or immediate help at CB (I don't consider Randall or Rollins as immediate help, future yes) and its showing.

I agree. TT cheapness and not admitting that some of his draft picks have failed is hindering this team. You don't always need to get the all pro free agent, but someone who has NFL experience and has proven himself to be a good NFL player. Then draft a player in that position and continue to develope them and maybe the rookies can learn something from the guys who have been there. He knew we needed a MLB and resorted to go cheap. If he continues to hope all these 4-7th round picks will amount to something then Rodgers will retire a 1X SB Champion. The odds of the players drafted that high being anything but serviceable are not good. Once in a while you'll find that diamond in a rough.

 

[JBlood]

I don't blame the coaches as much for what's happening as I do the players.

The fact is that we have personnel as good as anyone in the league on offense. Outside of Jordy, the 2014 no. 1 offense in the league is intact. They need to play like it. It's up to the coaches to ensure they do. That includes A. Rogers, clearly the most talented QB in the league.

I'd say the same on defense, but they play pretty much the same as they have for the last 5 seasons--middle of the road at best. Over that time we've had multiple player additions and subtractions on defense with no real change in coaching, or results. Maybe it's the coaching. As everyone knows, Aaron isn't getting any younger.

 

[Ogsponge]

I see people use the whole "we just played two really good defenses" argument a lot. Do you all realize that we are likely to face 1 or more really good defenses in the playoffs, right? And what has this MM & Rodgers led team historically shown? They can't beat good defenses. So my question is when is TT, MM, A-Rod, the Packers, and the fan base going to stop accepting making the playoffs as the gold standard and start caring about Super Bowl Victories.

This same old, tired, pathetic song and dance is getting pathetic. I still have hope but the way the Packers fail in spectacular fashion when they do fail is very concerning, especially since nearly every time you can look at see the fail to beat a good defense.

 

[broguy]

I see people use the whole "we just played two really good defenses" argument a lot. Do you all realize that we are likely to face 1 or more really good defenses in the playoffs, right? And what has this MM & Rodgers led team historically shown? They can't beat good defenses. So my question is when is TT, MM, A-Rod, the Packers, and the fan base going to stop accepting making the playoffs as the gold standard and start caring about Super Bowl Victories.

This same old, tired, pathetic song and dance is getting pathetic. I still have hope but the way the Packers fail in spectacular fashion when they do fail is very concerning, especially since nearly every time you can look at see the fail to beat a good defense.

Dude, what? The point of this thread wasn't to say that the Packers are going to win the super bowl, it was to say that we shouldn't panic and jump ship quite yet. Two losses in late October/early November don't end your season. I pointed out that we played two tough defenses to say that our offense isn't as bad as it's looked for the past two weeks. No one said "We played two really good defenses so we'll be fine for the rest of the season."

As for the "pathetic song and dance that's getting pathetic" (?), I think there's a huge difference between making the super bowl your goal vs your expectation. It's really hard to win a super bowl; you have to have a talented team peaking at the right time and you still need some good luck/favorable bounces. To say the team, coaches, management, and fans don't care about super bowl victories is ridiculous - it's why they all show up every season and it's why we watch. Whether or not you like our coaching staff or management, they've put us in position year in and year out to make the playoffs and compete for a super bowl. Making it to the playoffs isn't the "gold standard" but it's a pretty big piece of the puzzle.

None of this is to say that you can't criticize McCarthy or Capers or Thompson. We were close last year, but I think we'd all agree that Rodgers should have more than one super bowl ring at this stage in his career. And I think certain coaching moves and roster changes could've achieved that. But this year's team can still overcome some injuries and this stretch of bad play to make the playoffs and even secure a bye. I still think there will be better teams out there (yes, with good defenses), but that would leave us just three games away. I know I'm not sold on any of the NFC teams, so who knows?

 

[PFanCan]

I think everyone would agree..

Except for Raptorman.

 

[OldSchool101]

Good arguments. I might add that with relatively young D backs, the propensity to learn and get better increases as the year progresses. Randall is looking more and more like he is catching on quickly at this level. I think by playoff time himself and Dix gain a lot of 1st hand experience and become more seasoned on an individual or micro level.
Add to that the component of a young D becoming more cohesive and understanding their responsibilities more as they pertain to the system as a whole at the macro level.
I would like to see more aggressiveness at the line against opposing receivers when rushing 5+, I noticed we let opposing receivers run by us untouched for several big plays, not taking advantage of the 5 yard rule. Disturbing the timing of WR routes is key when applying additional pressure at the line.

 

[Raptorman]

Win the next 2 and I'll feel much better. Can't overstate how crucial it is to win in Minnesota.

Can't overstate how bad the Packers would look if they lose to Detroit at home.


Losing to MN @ MN would not be as bad as your think. Figure it this way, Packers beat the Lions, Vikes lose to the Raiders. Packers come in and lose to the Vikes. They are tied again. Not so bad.......now, lose to the Lions and then to the Vikings? Now we are talking Packer fans on the ledge.

 

[PackerDNA]

There will be growing pains with Randall and Rollins, but long term I think they're keepers.

 

[Beagle]

If anyone's having a 'glass half empty' party, can I come and join in the collective misery?

 

[Sky King]

If anyone's having a 'glass half empty' party, can I come and join in the collective misery?

I would have thought you had hit rock bottom by now. Half-empty would be a leap upwards.

 

[Carl]

Can't overstate how bad the Packers would look if they lose to Detroit at home.


Losing to MN @ MN would not be as bad as your think. Figure it this way, Packers beat the Lions, Vikes lose to the Raiders. Packers come in and lose to the Vikes. They are tied again. Not so bad.......now, lose to the Lions and then to the Vikings? Now we are talking Packer fans on the ledge.

We already have fans on the ledge.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

If anyone's having a 'glass half empty' party, can I come and join in the collective misery?

As long as it is not in Charlotte, they will steal all of our signs and probably our liquor and cheese!

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

We already have fans on the ledge.

I can see them standing on it, but it only drops down 2", they will be ok!

 

[Beagle]

I would have thought you had hit rock bottom by now. Half-empty would be a leap upwards.

Not far off mate, but I spend 8 months a year looking forward to the NFL season and I don't want to hit rock bottom after only 8 weeks, despite the combined efforts of Garret and the Eagles.

Good effort by the Pack last night, you just took too long to get going. On paper the Panthers shouldn't be where they are but somehow they're winging it.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Not far off mate, but I spend 8 months a year looking forward to the NFL season and I don't want to hit rock bottom after only 8 weeks, despite the combined efforts of Garret and the Eagles.

Good effort by the Pack last night, you just took too long to get going. On paper the Panthers shouldn't be where they are but somehow they're winging it.

Cowboys woes at least can be blamed on the loss of Romo and Dez. Yeah, we lost Jordy but if we lost AR....turn out the lights!

 

[RRyder]

Gotta love forums. Relativity, subjectivity, semantics. A person specifically says they're not ready to panic, and because they predict a 4-4 finish, you're ready to say they definitely are.

Predicting a 4-6 finish yes is over the top. Yes it's all relative and semantics but people need to stop hedging their bets