1. Welcome to Green Bay Packers NFL Football Forum & Community!

    Packer Forum is one of the largest online communities for the Green Bay Packers. You are currently viewing our community forums as a guest user.

    Sign Up or

    Having an account grants you additional privileges, such as creating and participating in discussions. Furthermore, we hide most of the ads once you register as a member!
    Dismiss Notice

No Win Situation ?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by WinnipegPackFan, Apr 6, 2006.

  1. WinnipegPackFan

    WinnipegPackFan Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    1,943
    Ratings:
    +0
    Favre, Packers in no-win situation
    Written by PackerChatters Staff
    Thursday, 06 April 2006
    Team's future doesn't look promising with or without quarterback
    Brett Favre's offseason has become as painful to watch as his season. As he wrestles with his emotions, the NFL world, far beyond Wisconsin, ponders two possibilities and cringes at both: what if he comes back and what if he doesn't.

    At the moment, the choices appear to be between two evils. Things can't possibly get better without him and don't look very promising with him.

    Even worse, Favre is teetering on a very unhappy brink of damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.


    The Green Bay natives are restless, inside and outside the Packer organization. Is he being spiteful by delaying his decision? Is he trying to force the Packers into releasing him? Or is he just being Brett, honestly trying to sort out his thoughts and in no hurry to accommodate anybody else?

    One ex-teammate, Mark Chmura, has come out and labeled Favre selfish. Chmura might lack credibility given his checkered past, but it's safe to say he isn't the only Packer fan with that thought.

    Favre would like the Packers to show they are serious about assembling a team with Super Bowl aspirations. If that's his criteria, he might as well keep mowing his Mississippi grass. Packers' general manager Ted Thompson is building for the team's future, not Brett Favre's.

    So why don't the Packers just cut him and move on? Think about it. Firing Vince Lombardi would be easier. Setting fire to Lambeau Field would make more sense.

    For one thing, the Packers are better off with Favre this year no matter who else is on the team. For another, anybody with any sense of football history knows the future is dim without him.

    With all due respect to Aaron Rodgers, life without Favre is likely to be a long, dark period of unsatisfying comparisons. Favre's arm alone, still the strongest in the NFL, is enough to scare away any thoughts of his retirement. Arms like that don't come around every decade.

    Let's see. Before Favre, there was Bart Starr. Between Starr and Favre, there were 20 years. Green Bay fans need to remember the facts of the past before eagerly embracing the uncertainty of the future.

    Starr's last years of 1969-70-71 were shared with Don Horn and Scott Hunter. Favre has yet to share with anyone, and is hardly fading into the sunset like Starr did.

    After Starr retired, the Packers started Jerry Tagge, like Rodgers a promising first-round draft pick. He lasted a year before they traded for broken-down John Hadl. He lasted two years before Lynn Dickey arrived in a trade for Hadl with Houston. With Starr as head coach, Dickey and David Whitehurst muddled through eight seasons, two of them winning but only one playoff appearance during the shortened 1982 strike season.

    Next came Randy Wright and Jim Zorn and Vince Ferragamo and Anthony Dilweg and Mike Tomczak and finally Don Majkowski with only a single winning season in 1989 under coach Lindy Infante to show for it.

    Then came Favre. It seems like ancient history and in football years it is. Spoiled doesn't begin to describe Packer fans since 1992. And now some of them want it to end?

    Life goes on, but in Packerland it would never be the same. Favre's consecutive starting streak is like Gehrig's with no Cal Ripken in sight. If Favre is beginning to sound a bit spoiled himself, indulge him for a minute. He gave the team more years than anybody has a right to expect from anybody.

    Is it Favre's fault that the Packer decline can be traced to the 1999 exit of defensive end Reggie White and coach Mike Holmgren? The Packers never adequately made up for White's departure, failing first with Vonnie Holliday and then failing miserably with free-agent pickup Joe Johnson.

    Even while Favre was winning three league MVPs in a row, he knew it was a team effort starting with defense. Two years after White left, safety LeRoy Butler followed and the Packers still haven't replaced him either.

    But replacing Favre will be the most difficult task yet.

    Does Favre want to play? Few athletes want to quit, and none of them want to admit to diminished skills. When one like Favre sees with his own eyes that nobody can throw a football like he can, there is no reason to quit.

    So what is the holdup? Could he possibly be angling for an out? Is it thinkable that he would want to play somewhere else?

    Because Favre is exploring all possibilities, that can't be ruled out. But it's hard to believe he would push the Packers to pull the plug. He wouldn't want to jeopardize his legacy. Now if the Packers push him, that's a different story. Then he could rationalize a new start elsewhere. But does he really want to start over? There are no guarantees anywhere, and he is most comfortable in Green Bay.

    The educated guess remains that he returns for one more season. If he announces his retirement, here's another guess: by training camp, he will change his mind. That may be why he is taking his good-old time. He doesn't want to undo a hasty decision.

    Source: Don Pierson: NBC Sports.com
     
  2. Anubis

    Anubis Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2005
    Messages:
    767
    Ratings:
    +0
    This guy makes it sound like GB will be wholly incapable of winning a single game w/o Favre at the helm. Somehow, I don't buy into the 'doom 'n' gloom' preached here.

    GO PACK!!!

    Robert C. Hedley
     
  3. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,207
    Ratings:
    +0
    Really..

    Do you think the Packers are going to the playoffs even if Favre retires?
     
  4. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,000
    Ratings:
    +3
    sure they can.

    -a top 10 defense again
    -a pretty easy schedule
    -weak NFC
    -solid running game(ahman\GADO!\Najeh)
    - some solid WRs(dont tell me driver\gardner\boreigter\frank\lee\Javon(or his replacement) arent solid)


    it is definitely possible. But like Brett says, its "Wait and see"
     
  5. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2004
    Messages:
    11,903
    Ratings:
    +8
    Playoffs require winning your division, minium. Considerin the Bears rep of booming one year an dooming the next and the Vikings well ... c'mon its the Vikings.

    I say yes. We have a chance. Rodgers won't be a 3 time MVP although I bet he will be a decent QB. Remember the Ravens won a SB with a shadow of a QB. (I know I know our D is no where near as good as theirs) Although the question was playoffs, not Super Bowl. :p
     
  6. Anubis

    Anubis Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2005
    Messages:
    767
    Ratings:
    +0
    The article made it sound that GB has will have no chance for years after Favre retires, not just this year or next... and no, I don't buy that kind of pessimism. :roll:

    GO PACK!!!

    Robert C. Hedley
     
  7. gopackgo4

    gopackgo4 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,080
    Ratings:
    +0
    Yehh this guy isnt right at all. Tagge was a bust so Rodgers must be a bust too, thats not how that works.
     
  8. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,207
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hmmm..

    Let's see..the last championship BF (Before Favre) was what....

    30 years ago...???

    (and you expect there to be another one not even one year after Favre retires...??)

    excuse me a minute... :shock: :shock: :shock:

    (hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...had to get that out..)

    (No wonder some of you don't mind TT's moves...you live in lala land.....)

    Sorry to be the one to tell you this...but if Favre retires...its going to be YEARS before the Packers break a .500 season.....

    That's why it would be in TT's best interest to try and woo Favre out of retirement....

    You see..I and a few others here on this forum live in a little land called REALITY...

    (sorry to bum your trips...)
     
  9. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,000
    Ratings:
    +3
    who said anything about superbowl? you said PLAYOFFS. lol!

    sorry to be the one to tell you this, but you can't predict the future. I know you want GB to fail miserably if they lose favre, but guess what....they could be in contention just a couple years after his retirement, maybe even the next year, since the defense is solid.

    why do you think your opinions are facts? Im not starting trouble, im just curious. to avoid any squabbles, PM me your answer, 66.
     
  10. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,207
    Ratings:
    +0
    No trouble troma...

    Just answer me this...

    How can you lose your HOF QB..your DC..your HC...your O-Line...Your premiere WR and your clutch kicker who's been money for YEARS...and expect to have a winning season?
     
  11. gopackgo4

    gopackgo4 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,080
    Ratings:
    +0
    There once was a magical land where a team went from hall of famer to hall of famer. Oh sorry thats lala land apparently. Oh wait that happened with the 49'ers
     
  12. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,000
    Ratings:
    +3
    easilly

    A-Rod sat an entire year last year and studied the NFL game. He wont be great when he starts, but he won't be god awful(he shouldnt be anyway) He should improve as each week goes by.

    our DC? thats easier. We have Sanders, Bates right hand man for years. He was also on THIS team last year, and oh yeah, the same scheme.

    our HC? why would YOU of all people put this in your argument? Sherman wasnt very good. His clock management and timeout use were horrible, and i wont even get into the playcalling.

    our Oline should get fixed in the draft and june. there are no good fa guards(sound familiar? it should, ive said it about 100 times)

    our WRs are Javon\Driver\Gardner\Boreigter\Ferguson until further notice. looks good to me.

    Kicker? It was already said other kickers will be brought in to compete with Cundiff. People arent high on cundiff,for good reason, but he is NOT being handed this job. People will be brought in to compete, and if my memory serves me right...isnt that how we got our clutch kicker Longwell in the first place?

    add that to the fact that the NFC is weak, and you dont need 12 wins to get into the playoffs, and yeah, playoffs are very reachable.

    good day.

    I SAID GOOD DAY!
     
  13. gopackgo4

    gopackgo4 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,080
    Ratings:
    +0
    thank you tromadz
     
  14. WinnipegPackFan

    WinnipegPackFan Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    1,943
    Ratings:
    +0
    Let me preface this by saying I was optimistic when we were 1 an 5 last year and anyone who read my posts knows this. I knew we were never as bad as we looked on paper due to injuries, close games and pure bad luck in general ( I was one of the most optimistic fans you could imagine ). We always seemed just a couple yards short or field goal away from changing the outcome of many games.

    This off season it is very hard to stay optimistic though so when p@ck66 voices his concerns about the teams outlook, as much as I would love to disagree, I can't.

    I wish I was one of the fans that only saw the positives or leaned toward the positives this off season, but I ( like pack66 ) have too many concerns about the team direction at this time and I don't think there is anything wrong with this !!!

    I am on Board with 66 on this one Gents ( Hope we are both wrong ) !!!
     
  15. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,000
    Ratings:
    +3
    some people thought the earth was flat at one point..


    hehehehe

    i hope you're wrong too, and id like to say "You will be wrong" but i cant predict the future, but im pretty certain you will be!

    go pack!
     
  16. IPBprez

    IPBprez Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,883
    Ratings:
    +5
    Like gopackgo4 said - goodun! A fact-filled post. I can just imagine the retort.

    The one amazing thing about the NFL is that good and sometimes great Players come and go with Father Time right on their heels. No one escapes it, no one. Before Favre, the NFL had Joe Montana, and Joe Theisman, and before that, there were others like Terry Bradshaw, and (of course) Bart Starr.... THERE WILL ALWAYS BE ANOTHER GREAT..... Player, out there somewhere....

    It could very well be Big Ben... no one knows.

    And, if you want to get selfish (as some have on this Forum) - we have (I think) Brett Favre, right? And, knowing the caliber of player he has the potential to still be.. what about the other 31 teams who don't have... Brett Favre? Everyone gets their turn....

    Some of that article, written by the PC Staff has merit - other parts of it reach into the unknown and make judgement calls. It should have left those parts open to interpretation instead of stating a line of thought that isn't supposed to be contested. But, in the end it's still an opinion piece, like most of what PC posts on their web site can be.

    I like the part where it says -----
    Number One: There will hardly be another 3xMVP in the NFL....ever! Count on it. It was a fluke that it happened this time - remember half of them voted for Barry Sanders - who was NO SLOUCH of a football player, either.. remember?

    If it's time to move on and have "other" NFL Players step into Packer history.. all of us will still be there. And, pointing fingers or finding fault or putting labels on someone isn't going to change a damn thing.... when it's all said and done.

    The few Bear's fans who stop by from time to time (gutsy at that) are right when they say the maturity level around here has degraded itself recently with the tactics I've just described.....

    Tromadz has shown, as well as NET and a few others where the focus needs to be with "our" fandom (and this Forum).....

    Oh, and trust me.. I understand totally how everyone would surely luv to be one of those Players out there on the Frozen Tundra... making that history.... it just wasn't our turn, this time around.

    Good post..... ('sides, you're not a real fan unless you're allowed to write a critique now and then - you're a blind puppet!)
     
  17. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,207
    Ratings:
    +0
    Well..Let's put it this way...

    Logic dictates...

    1. That first Year Head Coaches don't win championships...it takes a couple of years for the coaches philosophy to gel with the team, and a .500 season for a first time, first year HC is viewed as a success because the coach can then build from there. But there is no guarantee of a .500 season...especially with a...

    2. Rookie QB...It takes at LEAST 2-3 years OF ACTUAL PLAYING EXPERIENCE for a rookie QB to understand how to play in the NFL..and to become proficient at it. (And of this..there is no guarantee..) And don't say Big Ben either..because he was the beneficiary of a great running game and top notch receivers, and even he fell apart in the playoffs the first year...and was rattled when the defense got in his grill...I don't expect the Steelers to make the playoffs this year!

    3. O-Line...the offensive line is another unit that has to play together for awhile in order to gel as a unit...Hell..the Packers will be lucky if they even know their starting rotation on offensive line by opening day of the season..and by then it's a little late. It would take until about mid-season for them to get GOOD..if they ever do!

    4. WR..If Javon holds out..what do you think is going to happen. Same thing as last year. Teams will double cover DD and it will be up to who..Boreighter and Ferguson...? Not alot of confidence there...i hate to say...Let's hope, at least, Donald stays healthy....

    5. Cundiff? Why don't we call Bill Parcells and ask him what he thinks of Billy Cundiff? I think you'd get an earful of profanity and not much else...


    Yes Packer fans..I'm sorry to say this..but TT's best bet would be to work with Brett Favre and somehow beg, plead and convince him that you are committed to WINNING NOW...or at least the next 1-2 years...and maybe he might commit to TT....

    You see how it's a two-way street...?

    Learn it..Live it...BE IT..!
     
  18. WinnipegPackFan

    WinnipegPackFan Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    1,943
    Ratings:
    +0
    3. O-Line...the offensive line is another unit that has to play together for awhile in order to gel as a unit...Hell..the Packers will be lucky if they even know their starting rotation on offensive line by opening day of the season..and by then it's a little late. It would take until about mid-season for them to get GOOD..if they ever do!

    This is my number #1 reason why, even if we get Brett, I still think we have a real reason to worry !!!
     
  19. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Messages:
    2,391
    Ratings:
    +0
    We have a team that can be decent 6-10, 7-9, 8-8 is probably a stretch,without Brett. What I can't quite figure out is how some of you that say A-Rod will be decent, are the same ones who said 2 days ago that Brett is hurting this team BECAUSE if he doesn't come back we will be STUCK with A-Rod.

    I mean you can't have it both ways' Its like talking out of both sides of your mouth.


    I have said all along that A-Rod will be next in line to lead this team. How well he plays is the question.


    As far as the O-line goes, if we go with a Zone blocking scheme its actually a pretty simple thing to install with the right guys. Fast and athletic players shoud be quick to pick it up as most have probably done it before.
     
  20. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,000
    Ratings:
    +3
    1. Nobody is saying McCarthy is going to win a championship his first year. With that said, you never know, especially if you have favre(you gonna argue THAT, 66?)

    2. A-Rod DID play some in his rookie year, so if he has to play this year, it will be more growing, and more experience, but with a run game and a good defense, it shouldnt be too bad.

    3. Tauscher\Clifton\Barry\Coston were all on the team last year, they are somewhat familiar with eachother. One thing I will flip out if i see is, weekly changes of the O-line like sherman did. that was unacceptable. I'd rather have a mediocre\consistent o-line out there than a talented player filled one, but different every other week, like Sherman did in the preseason(minus the talented part).

    4. If Javon holds out, we have:
    Driver\Gardner\Boreigter\Ferguson

    last year in week 6 it was:
    Driver\Ferguson\etc

    If you think Gardner and Boreigter mean NOTHING to the WR corp...thats your own problem. Im pretty sure Favre likes gardner, he went to him at some key times, and gardner came up huge, and showed a lot of heart when he didnt have to. Look how far down on the depth chart it is until ferguson too. Add Franks and Lee(which you always forget...convenient) and the QB has some nice weapons.

    5. Did you forget the part where I said people are coming in to compete with him, and that's how we got longwell. Cundiff isnt being handed this job. Stop ignoring the facts when we list them, the forum gets repetitive that way.

    Thaaaaaaaaanks
     
  21. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Messages:
    2,391
    Ratings:
    +0
    Yeah Tro, your assessment of the team is pretty good. We will suck if Brett does not come back BUT hopefully we can be competitive and see some upside. Anything better than 7-9 is probably a substantial reach however.
     
  22. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,000
    Ratings:
    +3
    yeah it definitely wont be easy without favre, thats for DAMN sure!

    One of the things I like, is..that if favre retired 3 years ago, our strength was the OFFENSE(we woulda been screwed), now its the DEFENSE.

    The defense will stay the same(or get better, whoo pickett\Hawk[or Mario]!) regardless of our QB, and thank god for that!

    COME BACK BRETT!
     
  23. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Messages:
    2,391
    Ratings:
    +0
    Yeah I was thinking about that today. If we did sign Woodson, which I am not thrilled about, we would have a Defense, that on paper, looks real tough. I mean Harris and Woodson on the corners with a tough guy like Collins at safety is a nice secondary. KGB,Pickett,Kampman with Barnett and hopefully Hawk, would probably be one of our best Defensive unit since the Super Bowl days.

    If Brett comes back I think our offense looks pretty good as well. The O-Line is obviously the huge question mark. I think the backfield is set, especially with the way Gado played last year. The WR corps even without Walker to me looks very nice to. The biggest thing that could help this team, in my opinion, is if we could go back to the 2 TE set and actually throw the ball to Bubba and Lee. The O-Line zone blocking scheme is a benefit to the young guys upfront as well. As long as we get some mobile guys to fill the spots
     
  24. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,207
    Ratings:
    +0
    So you don't think losing Bates matters that much then...???
     
  25. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Messages:
    2,391
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hey, I don't like to make a habit of agreeing with Tro......BUT.......Sanders/Bates is the same system. I doubt our Defense looks much different then last year unless its better
     

Share This Page