1. Welcome to Green Bay Packers NFL Football Forum & Community!

    Packer Forum is one of the largest online communities for the Green Bay Packers. You are currently viewing our community forums as a guest user.

    Sign Up or

    Having an account grants you additional privileges, such as creating and participating in discussions. Furthermore, we hide most of the ads once you register as a member!
    Dismiss Notice

McCarthy or Holmgren?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by red4tribe, Oct 3, 2014.

?

McCarthy or Holmgren?

  1. McCarthy

    6 vote(s)
    20.7%
  2. Holmgren

    17 vote(s)
    58.6%
  3. Equally as good/bad

    6 vote(s)
    20.7%
  1. red4tribe

    red4tribe Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    944
    Ratings:
    +437
    Who was/is the better head coach?
     
  2. buggybill2003

    buggybill2003 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2012
    Messages:
    4,992
    Ratings:
    +3,052
    Vince Lombardi
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. Packerlifer

    Packerlifer Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,765
    Ratings:
    +518
    I'm inclined a lean toward Holmgren, as he was before his Seattle days, simply because he had to turn around a nearly 3 decade long losing period in the club's history. McCarthy had the benefit of stepping in when the Packers had reestablished a winning, contending tradition from the Ron Wolf-Holmgren period. And except for the last season the team was still winning and making the playoffs for most of the 6 preceding years of Mike Sherman.
     
  4. lambeaulambo

    lambeaulambo Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2010
    Messages:
    628
    Ratings:
    +206
    Coach? They are both great play callers - the edge has to go with MH. And why you ask? When he got a team down, he DID NOT go all conservative on you, he stepped on the opposing teams throat. He went for the kill. He also had an Oline coach who toughened that group.

    To me this is not even close, it is Holmgren.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. gbpowner

    gbpowner Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    222
    Ratings:
    +105
    MM. This guy deals with coaching the "youngest" team every year. The team has been "snake-bit" with injuries most of his years coaching. Despite both of these odds, he mastered the most sublime Super Bowl run that I have ever witnessed!
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2012
    Messages:
    7,809
    Ratings:
    +3,747
    It's close, but I go with Holmgren because McCarthy has had the advantage of the better QB.
     
  7. red4tribe

    red4tribe Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    944
    Ratings:
    +437
    Would you say Rodgers is better right now than Favre was from 95-98? I'm not saying I disagree with you, just curious what you think.
     
  8. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,792
    Ratings:
    +2,175
    Holmgren had Favre throughout his prime years. Hard to call that anything but a wash.
     
  9. Forget Favre

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2009
    Messages:
    8,169
    Ratings:
    +2,803
    I have to go with both since both have just one SB win.

    Holmgren tamed Favre enough for one SB win and to take us out of the losing years.
    McCarthy then got rid of our overrated interception king and brought in the future which is doing just fine if not better.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Poppa San

    Poppa San SB I trophy First of four Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    5,839
    Ratings:
    +1,631
    I went with Holmgren as his defenses were always decent if not really good. MM's haven't been that consistent that you'd trust them to carry the team.
     
  11. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,792
    Ratings:
    +2,175
    Yeah, he had some dominant players in the trenches, though. White, Dotson, Brown, Jones, etc.
     
  12. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2012
    Messages:
    7,809
    Ratings:
    +3,747
    I would take Rodgers last 4 full seasons ('09 - '12) over the '95-'98 Favre.

    Favre had about 100 more attempts and 1 more TD for those comparison years. Rodgers yards per attempt were higher. The key differentiator is Favre's 65 picks vs. Rodger's 32.

    Favre benefited from two pretty good years out of Bennett and a phenomenal year out of Levens over those 4 seasons.

    Rodgers got one very good year out of Grant in 2009 and the late run out of Starks in 2010. For 2 1/2+ of those seasons our top backs were Brandon Jackson and Alex Green. I don't think I need to go into how inadequate those guys were.

    Rodgers played with bad defenses in 2011 and 2012. On balance, Favre had the benefit of better defensive support.

    The differential between Rodgers and Favre gets wider when you take the full time spans of those players with those coaches.

    Favre's best season was with Minnesota...you could put that up against Rodgers' second best year.

    As for the specific question about Rodgers now, he's as good or better than he's ever been and that's better than Favre at the top of his game.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2014
  13. Beebe82

    Beebe82 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2014
    Messages:
    36
    Ratings:
    +16
    Holmgren is definitely the better coach and Rodgers is hands down the better QB.

    Holhmgren took a team that was probably one coaching change away from being the 2014 Raiders to a super bowl champion. He literally retooled every position, granted he had a lot of help from Wolf and Thompson but never the less he was a far superior coach position by position than McCarthy is. McCarthy has been unable over almost 10 years to coach a decent offensive line or defensive line. Whether that is on him directly or his assistant coaches is insignificant. Favre had slightly more physical skills than Rodgers, but Rodgers is miles and miles ahead of Favre when it comes to the mental and emotional side of game. If Holmgren had Rodgers vs Favre we would be looking at a 49ers / Cowboys type of dynasty.
     
  14. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    16,590
    Ratings:
    +4,273
    Ditka
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  15. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    3,538
    Ratings:
    +1,297
    Holmgreen. Holmgreen was just able to make adjustments when he needed to . MM is stuck in his ways...ala that sweep that has NEVER worked. Holmgreen would've thrown that out along time ago.
     
  16. Powarun

    Powarun Big Bay Blues fan

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2010
    Messages:
    2,048
    Ratings:
    +420
    Wrong answer, Lombardi = best coach.

    I think that McCarthy is the better coach, always felt he is severely underrated. Reason why: his results on the field have produced some great seasons, and while we can agree that his adjustments suck a lot of the time, it seems like he actually has tried to fix that problem this season.
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  17. Bensalama21

    Bensalama21 Ben

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,575
    Ratings:
    +609
    I have to respectfully agree, but disagree. Yes. Rodgers is the better QB, however, McCarthy transformed Rodgers into what he is today... McCarthy is one of the best QB coaches and I read that a few of his drills from his camp are used around the NFL today for all QBs.
     
  18. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2011
    Messages:
    5,389
    Ratings:
    +4,176
    IMO it’s a tough choice partly because McCarthy isn’t done yet. Holmgren had better assistant coaches, better defenses and a more flexible GM. McCarthy had to overcome more obstacles than Holmgren to win a title.

    An important part of this discussion revolves around the QBs. Some may believe each HC lucked into their HOF QBs but I don’t think that’s true. Holmgren did more than just (somewhat) control Favre. He (and staff) taught him the game. For example, in his second season in Green Bay while watching tape, Favre asked Ty Detmer what the coaches meant when they talked about the nickel defense. http://espn.go.com/chrismortensen/s/2001/1018/1265996.html I don’t think Wolf was lucky in getting Favre and IMO Holmgren can only be said to be lucky in the “raw materials” his GM handed him at QB. And Holmgren molded that material. Favre was extremely fortunate his junior season in college caught Wolf’s eye. Had it not, he very well could have remained the circus act he was pregame for Glanville his rookie season, perhaps never getting a chance in the league.

    Some may not remember how bad Rodgers looked upon his arrival in Green Bay and I think it was more than just his delivery. McCarthy’s QB school benefited Rodgers greatly. McCarthy molded Rodgers and again was lucky in my view only to the extent of the raw materials – including a much more disciplined mind than Favre – handed to him. I view Rodgers’ acquisition as a product of Thompson’s disciplined approach to the draft. Some may believe the Packers were lucky he was available but that can be said of every pick in the draft except for the first overall pick. And if that’s your view, you could also say Wolf was lucky no one else expressed interest in Favre when he traded for him, or lucky Glanville didn’t recognize the potential of the raw material he showed off before games. Or Wolf was lucky the Jets couldn’t trade up for Favre in the ’91 draft (Wolf was director of player personnel for them then and desperately wanted Favre) and then smart enough to keep him.

    IMO both HCs should get tons of credit for the players their HOF QBs turned out to be.
     
  19. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2012
    Messages:
    7,809
    Ratings:
    +3,747
    McCarthy as an architect of QBs is way, way overstated.

    First, when he was OC in SF he stumped for Alex Smith over Aaron Rodgers in the 2005 draft. So, we have him to thank for that. Smith was a mess until Harbaugh got him to play away from his weaknesses and fashioned him into a respectable system QB.

    Second, Rodgers fell in the draft for what are typically thought to be too factors: 1) a too low key "California QB" demeanor and 2) poor mechanics.

    Rodgers is still low key so McCarthy did not fix that "flaw". ;) As far as the bad mechanics, the rap was he held the ball high at the ear before cocking his arm, and the untoward things that follow from that. If you look at some of his college tape it does look old-school-dreadful. As it happens though, Rodgers has since mentioned that the correction to the pro-style form we see today was fairly easy for him...that's the way he threw in HS and at Chico...it was the goofy Cal coaches that wanted that ugly looking high hold.

    McCarthy gets credit for developing Aaron Brooks in New Orleans. Check.

    McCarthy gets credit for supervising Rodgers' self-corrections, maybe adding a few helpful tweeks. Whether McCarthy gets credit for keeping Rodgers focused while waiting on the bench with no clear end in sight is hard to say. Rodgers seem awfully focused on his own, and that's understating it. More like laser focused.

    I don't mean to say McCarthy had nothing to do with Rodgers development. That would be foolish. But if anybody thinks Rodgers was some raw material molded in McCarthy's hands is way over-stating the case.

    McCarthy gets credit for crafting a decent backup system QB in Flynn who got three straight rapid bum's rushes out of three other organizations. Works for the Packers in a pinch, so thanks for that.

    I believe that about covers it over a 20 year career as a QB coach, OC and head coach.

    Oh wait, Elvis Grbac had one very good year...two years after McCarthy left KC.

    Holmgren had to keep Brett Favre from flying off into space. That may be the greatest accomplishment of all.

    When I think of McCarthy's virtues the words that come to mind are "consistency", "continuity", "process", "program"...foundational things. That's big.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2014
  20. Mklangelo

    Mklangelo Feng Shui Debunker

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2014
    Messages:
    572
    Ratings:
    +175
    That's not even close. McCarthy. Longevity. Consistency and... well, what else is there?
     
  21. Mklangelo

    Mklangelo Feng Shui Debunker

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2014
    Messages:
    572
    Ratings:
    +175
     
  22. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2012
    Messages:
    7,809
    Ratings:
    +3,747
    When you look at the backgrounds of Packer coaches, personnel men and scouts, past and present, going back 20+ years something stands out...the guys flow back, forth and through certain organizations.

    GB, SF, SEA and KC pop up over and over again in these guys' resumes. CLE too to some degree.

    Maybe these teams should be called the "West Coast Mafia"?

    Being a process guy, it would not surprise me that some of McCarthy's practice methods and techniques would stick along the way.

    You should be aware that "QB Camp" died in 2010 for all intents and purposes. OTA's became so limited under the 2011 CBA as to make that camp less a reality and more just a habit of conversation. The bulk of the work that was once done in the QB Camp is not pushed to training camp.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2014
  23. Zeck180

    Zeck180 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2010
    Messages:
    471
    Ratings:
    +173
    Holmgren loses just barely, he was hired when the franchise was reeling from over 30 years of losing and little hope, with a lot of help and a few lucky breaks he became an imagine of success, from loser to champions. While McCarthy already had everything when he came, it just needed a bit more development. Plus I can't say much on him since I was only born in 1991 and until the early 2000s was groomed to be a die hard Vikings fan.

    However MM though wins if this were based on "how to win when everything is against you". The very fact the Packers won SB 45 is nothing but a miracle, under normal reasoning there is no way they should have made the playoffs in the first place, on top of that winning on the road. Same thing with last year, the team should have been dead in the water and lick their wounds while getting ready for the draft and end maybe 7-9. Add on top of that under MM the Packers have had a defense ranked in the top five twice (?) other than that dead last or the mid 20s. MM despite his play calling has kept the packers in the hunt. And hey he had to go through if not the nastiest divorce in NFL history while reassuring loyal fans that this new guy Rodgers will be worth all the heart arch.
     
  24. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2012
    Messages:
    7,809
    Ratings:
    +3,747
    I forgot a couple...Steve Bono and Rich Gannon.

    McCarthy was the QB coach in KC from 1995- 1998.

    Bono was an undistinguished backup for 9 years before being cast into the starting role in 1995, McCarthy's first year in KC. That was a very good season for Bono...he actually made the Pro Bowl. I think this is where the McCarthy's rep as a molder-of-QBs was formed...Bono's turnaround was sudden, dramatic, incredible. However, he was a one year wonder. 2006 was a lackluster season and by 2007 he was back to being a journeyman bench warmer.

    Rich Gannon played in KC for the same 4 years that McCarthy was there. He came off 6 years of undistinguished service in MIN and WASH.

    Gannon continued his journeyman-like performances under McCarthy's tutlage, getting 19 starts in the process. His highlights came in a hot streak in relief of Grbec in 1997 and 12 starts in 1998 when Grbac was injured again. During '98, the last year of the four year partnership with McCarthy, Gannon threw 354 balls and managed 10 TDs for the effort. The best thing to say about that 10th. year in the league may be that he threw only 6 INTs.

    In 1999 McCarthy moved on to the Packers. KC thought enough of his work with Gannon to let him go to Oakland in free agency. Starting in his 11th. season in the league in Oakland, under Gruden, Gannon took off...4 straight Pro Bowls, 2 All Pros, the league MVP in 2002, and a Superbowl appearance.

    I'm sure there are those who want to give McCarthy some credit for Gannon's development, even though he took a 6 year vet and left him pretty much the way he found him 4 years later.

    Whatever logic might grant McCarthy credit with Bono's sudden success would then also accrue to Gruden for Gannon's sudden (and more sustained and dramatic) success.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2014
  25. NOMOFO

    NOMOFO Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    1,105
    Ratings:
    +394

    :tup:..............i'll agree with this one. spot on.
     

Share This Page