Jace out of slot...

[Heyjoe4]

I'm fine with letting Vitale move on. Never did much here, hurt a lot. I have my thoughts as to why he was always knicked and i don't have faith in him ever being in the shape to contribute much without help and that leaves him vulnerable.

Yeah and we can’t know what the locker room dynamics were either. Some moves, and not just in GB, look strange. But we don’t know all that goes on off the field.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Oh c'mon Wimm. You're better than that.

Just comparing speed. Don't move goal posts on me!

Well, we haven’t seen enough of Jace to compare him to anyone yet. Cap and I have an honest disagreement about his speed and ability to split the seam. I guess the reality is that he just hasn’t had enough snaps to decide that. Cap pointed out he ran a 4.75 40 at the combine, but combine speed doesn’t always translate to field speed - the old saying “some guys play faster than their numbers.”

Something tells me Gluten isn’t done with the TE group. I don’t know what he’ll do, just a hunch the TE group on the final 53 will look different than what we see today.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

This part of the article jumped out at me. It's what many of us refer to when talking about how important it is for receivers and Rodgers to have good chemistry. Sounds like what happened in the Playoff game, is a good sign that Jace and #12 are establishing that chemistry.

During the postseason, Sternberger played 39 snaps over two games and caught his first NFL touchdown pass. He said the score against the San Francisco 49ers – caught in the back of the end zone against the coverage of Fred Warner – was partially the result of Aaron Rodgers subtly changing his route at the line of scrimmage. Sternberger saw the signal, made the adjustment and stuck with the route as Rodgers extended the play.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Oh c'mon Wimm. You're better than that.

Just comparing speed. Don't move goal posts on me!

That's fair. It's not like Gronkowski or Ertz are the speediest guys. Kittle's field speed doesn't look like 4.52.

As for seam busting, a common topic when it comes to TEs, that's predominantly a function of zone route running, body control and adjusting to the ball, competitiveness at the ball, and no shortage of fearlessness. Whether an ILB is man-chasing, or dropping to the under zone, the receiver has to find space under or away from the high safety where the QB expects to find him.

Now, being able to outrun that ILB when the FS abandons the middle of the field is a valuable trait, but the opportunity is pretty rare. Even if you have a speedy TE, and the FS is going to move to low-high zone on the perimeter, you're going to see the SS move into middle position or they'll cover up with the ubiquitous hybrid ILB matching speed with speed.

 

[El Guapo]

The fallacy of 40 yard dash speed is that it doesn't account for smarts. To me, that is the variable that leads to someone having a different game speed. A smart receiver can choose better angles and use effective fakes/moves/steps to get to a spot on the field as fast as someone with a better 40 time.

 

[HardRightEdge]

The fallacy of 40 yard dash speed is that it doesn't account for smarts. To me, that is the variable that leads to someone having a different game speed. A smart receiver can choose better angles and use effective fakes/moves/steps to get to a spot on the field as fast as someone with a better 40 time.

Another thing to consider is what happens with a player between the time he's a college junior or senior and where he is after a couple years in the league. Sometimes with better training and nutrition he can pick up some speed. Or you could look at a guy like Kittle who appears to have gone the other way.

Kittle ran a 4.52 at the Combine at 247 lbs and measured 6' 4". Sternberger ran a 4.75 at 251 lbs. and measured 6' 4". Now look at last season's tape and how big Kittle looks compared to Sternberger. He's maybe carrying 260 - 265 lbs. And he doesn't look like a 4.52 runner, more like 4.7ish like the guys we're discussing here. Adding weight can reduce the speed a guy had at 21-22 years old. You wouldn't say that's a problem with Kittle and what he gets done on the field today.

 

[Heyjoe4]

That's fair. It's not like Gronkowski or Ertz are the speediest guys. Kittle's field speed doesn't look like 4.52.

As for seam busting, a common topic when it comes to TEs, that's predominantly a function of zone route running, body control, competitiveness at the ball, and no shortage of fearlessness. Whether an ILB is man-chasing, or dropping to the under zone, the receiver has to find space under or away from the high safety where the QB expects to find him.

Now, being able to outrun that ILB when the FS abandons the middle of the field is a valuable trait, but the opportunity is pretty rare. Even if you have a speedy TE, and the FS is going to move to low-high zone on the perimeter, you're going to see the SS move into middle position or cover up with a hybrid ILB matching speed with speed.

Nice explanation of just how difficult it is to split the seam. If the TE is playing from the slot, or faking a block in-line, he has to get behind the ILB who, if alert, will drop into coverage. The TE needs to create separation (or better yet the ILB bites on a RPO) and the QB needs to drop the ball in before the FS or SS can close. On the perimeter, where it’s a WR getting separation from the CB and in front of the safety - I think Jon Gruden in his broadcasting days called that the “turkey hole”. Don’t ask me why.

The key to it all is getting separation, at least a step, and an accurate throw rom the QB. If it’s a TE, he then needs to make the S miss, but before that happens, he opens himself up to a fierce hit from the S. Same hold true on the perimeter.

That’s why they practice!

 

[Heyjoe4]

This part of the article jumped out at me. It's what many of us refer to when talking about how important it is for receivers and Rodgers to have good chemistry. Sounds like what happened in the Playoff game, is a good sign that Jace and #12 are establishing that chemistry.

During the postseason, Sternberger played 39 snaps over two games and caught his first NFL touchdown pass. He said the score against the San Francisco 49ers – caught in the back of the end zone against the coverage of Fred Warner – was partially the result of Aaron Rodgers subtly changing his route at the line of scrimmage. Sternberger saw the signal, made the adjustment and stuck with the route as Rodgers extended the play.

Thanks Poker. And I’ll be damned if I can spot how Rodgers signals that change at the line. Picking it up requires a lot of practice, and knowing how Rodgers makes those signals. It can be as subtle as a glance.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I think Jon Gruden in his broadcasting days called that the “turkey hole”. Don’t ask me why.

Probably because the zone gap between the under corner sitting down and the safety closing up top might look like a big fat turkey shoot initially whereas in fact the margin for error is small with the ball having to be placed right where you put in the stuffing.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Thanks Poker. And I’ll be damned if I can spot how Rodgers signals that change at the line. Picking it up requires a lot of practice, and knowing how Rodgers makes those signals. It can be as subtle as a glance.

Yup, much like in baseball, subtle signs between catcher and pitcher, 3rd base coach and batter/runner, etc. All the little subtle things that we all don't notice, but players/coaches work on a lot on. These are all things Rodgers himself has learned over time and I am sure he has also had to figure out which of his teammates pick it up fast enough and he can depend on them to do it. I get some fans frustrations with Rodgers, but the reason that Rodgers is talked about as one of the best QB's of all times, isn't just his physical talents, its his cognitive skills. You can't have one without the other.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Probably because the zone gap between the under corner sitting down and the safety closing up top might look like a big fat turkey shoot initially whereas in fact the margin for error is small with the ball having to be placed right where you put in the stuffing.

That’s as good an explanation as I’ve heard. Thanks HRE!

 

[gopkrs]

I kind of remember the Sternberger TD and I just watched it on utube. I think it is just bs that there was some communication. Rodgers was scrambling and Sternberger did a good job of getting open in the back of the endzone. Pretty obvious that Rodgers was scrambling to the right so Sternberger also went that way. Otherwise he would have just been giving up on the play.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I kind of remember the Sternberger TD and I just watched it on utube. I think it is just bs that there was some communication. Rodgers was scrambling and Sternberger did a good job of getting open in the back of the endzone. Pretty obvious that Rodgers was scrambling to the right so Sternberger also went that way. Otherwise he would have just been giving up on the play.

Ahhhh....I see, even though Sternberger stated that:

"Aaron Rodgers subtly changing his route at the line of scrimmage. Sternberger saw the signal, made the adjustment and stuck with the route as Rodgers extended the play."

You didn't see that on the YouTube video that you watched, so you are calling "BS that there was any communication between Rodgers and his TE."

Come on man!

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Packers need a reliable, preferably very good, outside receiver with speed; they have a bunch of guys on the roster who excel in the short to intermediate area but nobody on the roster who defenses really have to be concerned about beating them deep on any down.

MVS was supposed to be the deep threat entering last season. While he definitely has the speed to take the top off a defense opponents quickly realized that he isn't on the same page with Rodgers and focused on shifting their coverage a different way.

I agree the Packers would benefit from having a speedy receiver who is capable of contributing on a consistent basis.

I didn’t know the Pats only paid Vitale $1.3 mil. Again I thought he played well enough to hold his roster spot.

It seems the Packers weren't interested in offering Vitale anything more than the veteran minimum. I'm absolutely fine with that decision.

There’s no doubt this WR group needed another veteran presence, and to that end the addition of Funchess on the cheap is good.

Funchess isn't that cheap as he could make up to $6.25 million this season.

I thought Gluten would have made a play for one of the higher profile WRs.

In my opinion Gutekunst made the right decision to not pursue one of the top free agent receivers this offseason. None of them was good enough justifying spending a lot of money on.

Oh c'mon Wimm. You're better than that.

Just comparing speed. Don't move goal posts on me!

My point being that Sternberger having the same speed as Ertz or Gronkowski doesn't result in him being able to split the seam.

As for seam busting, a common topic when it comes to TEs, that's predominantly a function of zone route running, body control and adjusting to the ball, competitiveness at the ball, and no shortage of fearlessness.

So what you're saying is that Sternberger having the same speed as Ertz or Gronkowski doesn't have a significant impact on him being able to split the seam.

 

[thequick12]

I think Jace is fast enough to split the seam, although he didn’t get a lot of chances last year. As for FB, that’s what I thought (that MLF valued a FB) until they let Vitale walk. Now they have to find a replacement. I thought Vitale pretty much did all they expected him to do, so that took me by surprise. Maybe he was asking for too much. I don’t know if they have any other FBs on the current roster.

If he's not the Packers need to add that player. A seam splitter has been missing from this offense since Finley hurt his neck.

Finely ran a 4.82 with a 1.66 10 yard split at 6-4 243 coming out while Sternberger 6-4 251 ran 4.75 with a 1.70 10 yard split.

So I'm not sure that he's not fast enough we'll have to wait and see...

Players in the draft that have the potential to fit the seam splitter criteria are:

Cole Kmet 6-5 262 4.70 1.65
Albert O 6-5 258 4.49 1.56
Brycen Hopkins 6-4 245 4.66 1.61
Adam Trautman 6-5 255 4.80 1.65
Harrison Bryant 6-5 243 4.73 1.63
Colby Parkinson 6-7 252 4.77 1.66
Dalton Keane 6-4 253 4.71 1.62
Stephen Sullivan 6-5 248 4.66 1.65

 

[Mondio]

I think he's fast enough. I like him more now than when we drafted him. I'm also still waiting for whatever needs to flip in Tonyan to make him what I think he can be. When he catches it, he's aggressive to the ball. It's his. He blocks well and is improving and he's pretty athletic, at least he looks to move pretty well for a bigger guy. I can only conclude he's not clear on all the offense, as he hardly sees the ball, but he seems to do a lot of things well. Maybe it turns on, maybe it doesn't, but i'm hoping year 3 is a big turning point for him as well.

But I don't see any reason Jace isn't "fast enough" to do everything we'd need from a TE and then some.

 

[GleefulGary]

I think he's fast enough. I like him more now than when we drafted him. I'm also still waiting for whatever needs to flip in Tonyan to make him what I think he can be. When he catches it, he's aggressive to the ball. It's his. He blocks well and is improving and he's pretty athletic, at least he looks to move pretty well for a bigger guy. I can only conclude he's not clear on all the offense, as he hardly sees the ball, but he seems to do a lot of things well. Maybe it turns on, maybe it doesn't, but i'm hoping year 3 is a big turning point for him as well.

But I don't see any reason Jace isn't "fast enough" to do everything we'd need from a TE and then some.

Jace isn't fast enough because the numbers say so, even though players at the same speed are fast enough. That's what I've learned so far.

I like the combine. I like the testing numbers. But once a guy gets on the field, they're kinda meaningless. Does he get open? Does he play fast enough? If yes, then who cares what his 40 was?

 

[tynimiller]

Quickness > Speed

I think Jace has what it takes to get open...he's quicker than Finley was IMO, and if healthy Finley would have been our best TE in history IMO.

 

[HardRightEdge]

So what you're saying is that Sternberger having the same speed as Ertz or Gronkowski doesn't have a significant impact on him being able to split the seam.

Faster is always better, but there are more important elements to success in running a zone route, previously noted, which a seam route is by definition. Like I said, if the high safety occupies himself elsewhere, the speed to blow by a LB is certainly a plus, but that's not a seam route.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I like him more now than when we drafted him.

In my opinion Sternberger hasn't done anything during his rookie season warranting being more confident in him at this point.

Jace isn't fast enough because the numbers say so, even though players at the same speed are fast enough.

I like the combine. I like the testing numbers. But once a guy gets on the field, they're kinda meaningless. Does he get open? Does he play fast enough? If yes, then who cares what his 40 was?

There have been a ton of tight ends with the same speed as Sternberger who ended up not having an impact in the NFL.

While I definitely hope that he will develop into a productive tight end for the Packers I don't get the wide spread optimism about his chances though. He hasn't done anything justifying it so far.

 

[Mondio]

In my opinion Sternberger hasn't done anything during his rookie season warranting being more confident in him at this point.

.

Obviously I didn't see it that way. partially because I wasn't all that excited by the pick in the first place, nothing really made me feel all hat excited by him. Then he was hurt all year. Then he came back and got some time in the last couple games and in my opinion he looked like someone I thought would be able to contribute to this team in all phases as a TE.

The season ended before we could ever see anymore, but he was basically taking his rookie snaps and was in september shape while he was playing against Playoff teams in midseason form and looked like he belonged to me.

 

[gopkrs]

Ahhhh....I see, even though Sternberger stated that:

"Aaron Rodgers subtly changing his route at the line of scrimmage. Sternberger saw the signal, made the adjustment and stuck with the route as Rodgers extended the play."

You didn't see that on the YouTube video that you watched, so you are calling "BS that there was any communication between Rodgers and his TE."

Come on man!

What I saw was Rodgers immediately looking to throw. He did not know he was going to be scrambling. The pocket collapsed pretty quickly. First he just backed up looking to throw but he was not safe there. And when he started scrambling right, Sternberger, who was deep in the endzone, kept running. Maybe it was esp?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Obviously I didn't see it that way. partially because I wasn't all that excited by the pick in the first place, nothing really made me feel all hat excited by him. Then he was hurt all year. Then he came back and got some time in the last couple games and in my opinion he looked like someone I thought would be able to contribute to this team in all phases as a TE.

The season ended before we could ever see anymore, but he was basically taking his rookie snaps and was in september shape while he was playing against Playoff teams in midseason form and looked like he belonged to me.

I agree that Sternberger looked decent in the limited snaps that he received last season but in my opinion a lot of fans are way too optimistic about him entering this year based on a small sample size.

 

[Mondio]

Maybe it was what he was supposed to do, but Rodgers had to scramble quickly and while scrambling he knew where Sternberger was supposed to go, Jace obliged, and he threw him the ball. No ESP necessary.

Or maybe it was a complete breakdown and the kid kept working to get open and his QB threw him the ball.

Either way it's a win in my book

 

[Mondio]

I agree that Sternberger looked decent in the limited snaps that he received last season but in my opinion a lot of fans are way too optimistic about him entering this year based on a small sample size.

I'm still optimistic about Tonyan from some snaps in the preseason 2 year ago, did you forget who you're talking to?