Calling Time-out

[Pokerbrat2000]

Pretty soon we won't need players. Just bios and plug them in.

I love watching football, but not the referees. I rarely hear people say "Wow, that was some of the best officiating I have seen in ages, did you see those guys ref? Those refs really are the best that ever refed the game." I would prefer a game that was "officiated" by as few human decisions as possible. Sure would decrease the amount of time that people spend on Monday, b*tching about all the blown calls too.

 

[tynimiller]

Sure it can be viewed as unfair, when it is called immediately when the clock hits zero or not called, when the ball is snapped seconds after the clock hit zero. Using "human error" and "the same process" as being the same, just isn't accurate at all. I have seen times in games when it is missed sometimes, but still called at other times.

I mean why wait to enforce the play clock after 1, 2 or 3 seconds of its expiration? Should they set the play clock at 37 seconds instead of 40 to make up for that? Oh wait, you still have the margin of human error.

What if I told you that they had the technology to call offensive holding or pass interference calls equally and correctly ALL the time? Or are you fine with those just being a judgement call, because that makes them equal?

LOL you're conflating the difference between whether it is good or accurate with it being fair. The same process is done regardless of what team on offense.

It needs amended I fully agree, but not because it is unfair.

 

[tynimiller]

What if I told you that they had the technology to call offensive holding or pass interference calls equally and correctly ALL the time? Or are you fine with those just being a judgement call, because that makes them equal?

Judgement...I am of the belief if the ref doesn't feel the hold would have impacted the play, don't throw the flag...

If the flag got thrown every time a hold actually happens football would be autrocious to watch.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Judgement...I am of the belief if the ref doesn't feel the hold would have impacted the play, don't throw the flag...

I think when the hold is early, they don't have the time to wait to throw the flag, but maybe they should? To see as you said, did it influence the eventual outcome of the play?


I really wish that was the case with defensive holding or PI. Whatever happened to "the ball was uncatchable" so pick up the flag? Or the hold was on the receiver that was on the other side of the field from where the ball was thrown, pick up the flag? I think I have this "beef" every year. Defensive holding is an automatic first down, even if it was on 4th and 90 yards to go for a 1st down. I just do not like how much a team can be penalized by a judgement call like that and in many cases, the outcome doesn't come even close to matching the crime.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

LOL you're conflating the difference between whether it is good or accurate with it being fair. The same process is done regardless of what team on offense.

It needs amended I fully agree, but not because it is unfair.

I am not saying that refs intentionally are inaccurate. What I am saying is it is just the nature of the way that it is called, that IS inaccurate. Which is what I am saying, the inaccuracy, has the potential to unfairly hurt another team more than the other. I would also say that it isn't consistent in its accuracy/inaccuracy as well, which is probably, my bigger gripe. Like I said, I have seen a flag thrown in a game when that play clock hits zero and in that same game, no flag and the ball snapped a good 1-2 seconds after play clock hit zero. I guarantee you, if that was the game clock that hit zero, game over.

 

[Heyjoe4]

That has happened to kickers across the league. The Vikings did it to Crosby in the game that ended in a tie. And he missed the second one. The Cowboys did it in the playoff game. But Crosby responded by making it.
What would have to change is that they remove the ability of the sideline to call timeouts and leave it up to someone on the field. You would need a Rodgers on your offense or a Ray Lewis on your defense. Coaches would have to signal or contact someone on the field to do it.
Remember when the Jets hit a long TD pass against us and it was called back. One of Rex's assistants signaled for a TO before the snap. Rex was like..HUH!.

LOL, just thinking about Rex!

The Bears called a TO as McManus tried a 55 yard FG in the playoff game. The kick was good. He missed the second time, having a huge impact on the game. At the time, the Packers were rolling 21-3 and the miss didn't seem like a big deal. First thought wrong, again.

 

[Pugger]

When I saw the title of this thread I thought the discussion would be about how bad we are at wasting time outs and time management by our illustrious HC.

 

[OldSchool101]

I will offer that there was a recent Timeout called by MLF that appeared to be 1-2 seconds after the ball was snapped by our opponent. The networked showed the clock and Matt pacing the sideline but the body language made it clear it shouldn’t have been allowed. I don’t think it was detrimental to either side but sure do think it was far beyond allowable.
Most often they get called to save a delay of game when the play clock is expiring. Those are a little less critical but they do allow about 1 second of leniency in my estimation to save 5 yards.

 

[gopkrs]

I will offer that there was a recent Timeout called by MLF that appeared to be 1-2 seconds after the ball was snapped by our opponent. The networked showed the clock and Matt pacing the sideline but the body language made it clear it shouldn’t have been allowed. I don’t think it was detrimental to either side but sure do think it was far beyond allowable.
Most often they get called to save a delay of game when the play clock is expiring. Those are a little less critical but they do allow about 1 second of leniency in my estimation to save 5 yards.

I think that quite often he saves a penalty when the time-out was actually more valuable. Just as sometimes clocking the ball is a mistake instead of using the down

 

[Heyjoe4]

When I saw the title of this thread I thought the discussion would be about how bad we are at wasting time outs and time management by our illustrious HC.

Thanks Pugger. This has become a legit criticism for a few seasons now. The Packers rarely get to the two-minute warning in either half with all three TOs. And clock management (or mismanagement) is very costly in the close losses the Packers had last season.

I don't know the answer. It seems like putting in an assistant to watch this stuff and work directly with MLF on the sideline is a good idea. But how practical is that, given how fast the game moves? Could such a move actually make things worse?

Again, I just don't know. What bothers me is that the problem has been apparent for a number of seasons now. I think in one case this year the Packers were penalized for delay of game AFTER a timeout. That is inexcusable.

There is a tendency by all teams to call a TO rather than take a delay-of-game penalty. Maybe it's better, given the situation, to take the penalty and save the TO.

Anyway it's a problem that doesn't appear to be a priority for MLF or Gluten.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I will offer that there was a recent Timeout called by MLF that appeared to be 1-2 seconds after the ball was snapped by our opponent. The networked showed the clock and Matt pacing the sideline but the body language made it clear it shouldn’t have been allowed. I don’t think it was detrimental to either side but sure do think it was far beyond allowable.
Most often they get called to save a delay of game when the play clock is expiring. Those are a little less critical but they do allow about 1 second of leniency in my estimation to save 5 yards.

Good observation OS. I don't understand why calling a delay-of-game penalty is so hard. It the clock gets to zero and the ball is still under C, that's delay or game. There is no one second and ill-defined "grace period".

 

[Heyjoe4]

LOL you're conflating the difference between whether it is good or accurate with it being fair. The same process is done regardless of what team on offense.

It needs amended I fully agree, but not because it is unfair.

Agree. Calling delay of game is a judgement call by the refs when it shouldn't be. When the play clock hits zero and the ball is still under C, it's delay of game.

Except when it's not. Not sure why this is problematic for the officials. Drives people nuts.

 

[gopkrs]

It really is a call that the head coach should have a better handle on. It's not really that complicated. Either take the 5 yards or call a time out. No need to friggin panick. If he can't talk and chew gum at the same time; then he should give that responsibility to someone with a brain. Most of these are situations he should have known since the 5th grade. 30 or 35 yard field goal...no brainer. 3rd and 15 or 3rd and 20...no brainer. How do you you get your play call in on time? Practice for every conceivable situation. Every week alot some time to it.

 

[Heyjoe4]

It really is a call that the head coach should have a better handle on. It's not really that complicated. Either take the 5 yards or call a time out. No need to friggin panick. If he can't talk and chew gum at the same time; then he should give that responsibility to someone with a brain. Most of these are situations he should have known since the 5th grade. 30 or 35 yard field goal...no brainer. 3rd and 15 or 3rd and 20...no brainer. How do you you get your play call in on time? Practice for every conceivable situation. Every week alot some time to it.

Agree gopkrs and it goes straight to fundamental football. Practice these situations in TC and every week of the season, and then practice them some more. Not so sure this is happening in GB.

 

[El Guapo]

A good read about the mechanics: https://www.footballzebras.com/2018/10/does-the-offense-get-a-delay-of-game-fudge-factor/

"While fans may not agree or be satisfied at this inexact science to determine delay of game, it is the same for both teams and helps keep the game moving. If we went to an exact science of determining delay of game, the game would bog down with a big jump in delay of game fouls."

 

[El Guapo]

Alternate idea : Put a magnet in the football and a metal slab underneath the playing surface. The moment the clock strikes zero the magnet engages not allowing the ball to be snapped.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Alternate idea : Put a magnet in the football and a metal slab underneath the playing surface. The moment the clock strikes zero the magnet engages not allowing the ball to be snapped.

EG while this mechanism isn't practical, the idea is worthwhile. There is already a chip in the football to, I think, measure for first downs if it's close.

Nah, nevermind. Some things need to be left to humans. Although your idea cracked me up. Just imagine a center trying to snap the ball and it's literally stuck in place!

 

[El Guapo]

EG while this mechanism isn't practical, the idea is worthwhile. There is already a chip in the football to, I think, measure for first downs if it's close.

Nah, nevermind. Some things need to be left to humans. Although your idea cracked me up. Just imagine a center trying to snap the ball and it's literally stuck in place!

That's what made me laugh.

This whole issue is one of the situations where there is a human value to it, but the refs treat each team the same. They all get a split second of grace, so who really cares.

 

[Firethorn1001]

the game would bog down with a big jump in delay of game fouls."

Yes for a couple of weeks. In the preseason.

There is enough going on in a football game both pre and post snap to keep track of for refs. I don't know why they wouldn't want to offload some of the menial tasks refs do that could be automated to free up their time to focus on other things.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Yes for a couple of weeks. In the preseason.

There is enough going on in a football game both pre and post snap to keep track of for refs. I don't know why they wouldn't want to offload some of the menial tasks refs do that could be automated to free up their time to focus on other things.

Agreed. As far as calling delay-of-game penalties, EG is right. The refs are pretty uniform in allowing teams about a second after the clock runs to zero to snap the ball. It still seems unnecessary. If the C still has the ball when the play clock reaches zero, throw the flag.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Alternate idea : Put a magnet in the football and a metal slab underneath the playing surface. The moment the clock strikes zero the magnet engages not allowing the ball to be snapped.

Better yet, lets add some real excitement to the game. Put a small explosive device in each football and when the clock hits zero and sensors say that the ball hasn't been snapped, the ball blows up. Put a big batch of colored powder in each ball. Randomly, but evenly, load each ball with a different color, representing the 2 teams playing that day. If the ball blows up a Green powder, the ball belongs to the Packers at that spot. Purple smoke? Vikings ball.

That will teach MLF to get the play in faster!

 

[El Guapo]

I

Better yet, lets add some real excitement to the game. Put a small explosive device in each football and when the clock hits zero and sensors say that the ball hasn't been snapped, the ball blows up. Put a big batch of colored powder in each ball. Randomly, but evenly, load each ball with a different color, representing the 2 teams playing that day. If the ball blows up a Green powder, the ball belongs to the Packers at that spot. Purple smoke? Vikings ball.

That will teach MLF to get the play in faster!

I like the introduction of more personal peril into the game!

Truthfully, what I still miss from the original XFL was the way that they determined the start of the game. Two players raced to a ball in the center of the field and whomever came up with it, secured the ball for the team to start the game.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I

I like the introduction of more personal peril into the game!

Truthfully, what I still miss from the original XFL was the way that they determined the start of the game. Two players raced to a ball in the center of the field and whomever came up with it, secured the ball for the team to start the game.

How about swaying or rotating goal posts during XP's and FG's? Doinks count as 2 points on an XP try and 4 points on a FG attempt. Double doinks add 3 bonus points!

 

[Heyjoe4]

How about swaying or rotating goal posts during XP's and FG's? Doinks count as 2 points on an XP try and 4 points on a FG attempt. Double doinks add 3 bonus points!

The Bears would love this, especially the double-doink enhancement. Oh wait, the kick still has to go through the uprights. Nevermind.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Better yet, lets add some real excitement to the game. Put a small explosive device in each football and when the clock hits zero and sensors say that the ball hasn't been snapped, the ball blows up. Put a big batch of colored powder in each ball. Randomly, but evenly, load each ball with a different color, representing the 2 teams playing that day. If the ball blows up a Green powder, the ball belongs to the Packers at that spot. Purple smoke? Vikings ball.

That will teach MLF to get the play in faster!

I'm in favor of anything to get MLF moving a bit faster!