Here is another example of what TT needs to learn or go!

[longtimefan]

[Very true ANY ONE can run for office...Trouble between the 2 is that to be a gm for a NFL TEAM you are going to need some true experince in that field and be GRANTED an interview with the team...

Run for office just put your name in at the local court house and maybe pay a fee and your on the ballott..


You can complain/bash anyone you want, but until you are in the same shoes as the person you are bashing what makes you think that you can do it better??

When did I say I could run the team any better that TT? Regardless of how I could, or could not run it, that does not in any way, shape or form mean I should accept mediocrity without question.

I really hope I do not have to explain how obtuse you sound in the above post. :roll:

GO PACK!!!

Robert C. Hedley

YOU shouldn't accept mediocrity at all, but ANYONE criticizing should also understand all circumstances that might have led to that point..

YOU didn't say you could run the team better...

I should have said ANYONE/EVERYONE/PEOPLE as in general terms and not used the word YOU...

If you have ever been to a gathering where someone was giving a speech and the speaker says in general terms YOU........

That is sort of what I was doing, not trying to single you out at all.

On the other hand hope you were not calling me dumb
and just calling me a 100 degree angle

 

[DePack]

Pack93z......of course you're right and every knowledgeable fan knows you're right. I check in from time to time but stopped posting for the most part because if you badmouth TT you run the risk of being banned or suspended by just about every mod here. It is assinine that anybody defends TT for this situation. It was an embarassment to sign Robinson in the first place. The friggin' vikings cut him because of his stupid actions. The same vikings that we constantly criticize for troublesome players. For what... 7 receptions and 87 yards in 4 games?

This team RIGHT NOW is being run like somebody wants to go 2-14. Maybe then that albatross around TT's neck, Brett Favre, will retire.

Too bad for him Brett will have something to say about it.




I hope you have an opportunity to read this before some overzealous mod deletes it.

DePack ~ under no circumstances would I ever delete any of your posts simply because of the opinion it states. Leaving it up lets more people appreciate the real you. :thumbsup:


It is no more assinine to defend TT than to crucify him. I do however, find it interesting that the only knowledgable football fans (IYO) are ones that agree with you and to disagree is assinine! Bob Wolf, Mike holmgren, and Bob Harlan so far have given a thumbs up to TT. So, by your logic, are you saying they are not knowledgable football fans? In fact, are you saying they are assinine?

TT has been in the business for a long time. Most likely a lot longer than you have been a fan. For you to even pretend you know more than him is IMO assinine in itself.

You don't get how this forum works....that is why you struggle with it. Deal with the opinions and debates...leave out the judgements of the people who gave them.

tripp...why are you constantly on my ***. Read your post. I understand how forums work. They are about opinions. I posted my opinions and what I thought of others. That's the way it works. I don't believe the purpose of this forum is so we can all hold hands and sing "Kumbaya". Because Holmgren, Wolf and Harlan say TT is great we should all stop discussing this? The fact is everybody in the NFL is more knowledgeable than us about football (except Matt Millen). Does that mean we should never disagree with what they are doing. Quit trying to slap my wrist everytime I disagree with something the "White haired wonder" does or we are going to have a problem here.

Ryan went through alot of trouble and hard work to make changes here. One of them is adding the ignore button. If you don't like my tone or the way I post ....use it. It's really that simple!!

 

[Bobby Roberts]

TT wasn't banking on Robinson IMO, but the Fergie injury raised the need for Koren. I think he signed Koren for the future, not for this season. That's not a foolish thing because Robinson cost us very little and when he returns we'll have a very good WR at a very cheap price.

You mean like Onterrio Smith (aka "The Wizzinator")?

There is no guarantee the NFL WILL reinstate Robinson. He may have already played his last NFL game.

GO PACK!!!

Robert C. Hedley

Well I never made any reference to the Wizzinator.

As for the NFL not reinstating Robinson, please site one instance that a player coming off a 1 year suspension was not allowed to be reinstated! Just look at the exceptions they gave to Ricky Williams, who will end up being reinstated next year also.

Even if that was the case, GB would owe Robinson nothing. He can be cut immeditately at anytime and cost GB nothing. In fact he doesn't cost us anything while he's on suspension! Therefore if he doesn't return, it cost us nothing!

Somehow I fail to understand the risk in obtaining a player with problems, who if he doesn't work out ends up costing the team NOTHING! What exactly is TT risking here??

 

[DePack]

TT wasn't banking on Robinson IMO, but the Fergie injury raised the need for Koren. I think he signed Koren for the future, not for this season. That's not a foolish thing because Robinson cost us very little and when he returns we'll have a very good WR at a very cheap price.

You mean like Onterrio Smith (aka "The Wizzinator")?

There is no guarantee the NFL WILL reinstate Robinson. He may have already played his last NFL game.

GO PACK!!!

Robert C. Hedley

.

Well I never made any reference to the Wizzinator.

As for the NFL not reinstating Robinson, please site one instance that a player coming off a 1 year suspension was not allowed to be reinstated! Just look at the exceptions they gave to Ricky Williams, who will end up being reinstated next year also.

Even if that was the case, GB would owe Robinson nothing. He can be cut immeditately at anytime and cost GB nothing. In fact he doesn't cost us anything while he's on suspension! Therefore if he doesn't return, it cost us nothing!

Somehow I fail to understand the risk in obtaining a player with problems, who if he doesn't work out ends up costing the team NOTHING! What exactly is TT risking here??

Bobby...Robinson will be reinstated IF>>>IF>>>IF>>>he can stay clean. The risk has already been realized. MM himself said that this has caught the Packers off guard and that it is a worse case scenario with Robinson. Of course he went on and said he doesn't regret the move (you could almost see the strings moving when he said it).

The risk we already realized is this.....we could have had another free agent WR or even one of these young pups that TT just signed getting some valuable experience. If we stayed away from Robinson we SURELY would have signed another veteran wideout and we wouldn't be scrambling right now. I understand there was no monetary risk involved with this signing but I don't think you can say this signing and the suspension that follows didn't set us back

 

[longtimefan]

The thinking was that K.R was going to be able to finish out the season, that the NFL would not act so fast on appeals and such..

Little did they know that the new commish is showing his balls by moving faster than the previous people in charge.


From jsonline

"What bothered Robinson's camp the most about the NFL's process was that other appeal cases have taken much longer to be heard, allowing the player to continue playing. In Robinson's case, the appeal was heard less than a month after his suspension and rejected in less than a day.

"To make a statement (of suspension) a day after the appeal is unheard of," said one member of Robinson's camp. "They usually move so slow."

not that this was a good excuse, just something that was probably thought about and hoped for

 

[DePack]

The thinking was that K.R was going to be able to finish out the season, that the NFL would not act so fast on appeals and such..

Little did they know that the new commish is showing his balls by moving faster than the previous people in charge.


From jsonline

"What bothered Robinson's camp the most about the NFL's process was that other appeal cases have taken much longer to be heard, allowing the player to continue playing. In Robinson's case, the appeal was heard less than a month after his suspension and rejected in less than a day.

"To make a statement (of suspension) a day after the appeal is unheard of," said one member of Robinson's camp. "They usually move so slow."

You're right longtime......the new commish moved quickly on the Albert Haynesworth suspension also.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Well I never made any reference to the Wizzinator.

As for the NFL not reinstating Robinson, please site one instance that a player coming off a 1 year suspension was not allowed to be reinstated! Just look at the exceptions they gave to Ricky Williams, who will end up being reinstated next year also.

Even if that was the case, GB would owe Robinson nothing. He can be cut immeditately at anytime and cost GB nothing. In fact he doesn't cost us anything while he's on suspension! Therefore if he doesn't return, it cost us nothing!

Somehow I fail to understand the risk in obtaining a player with problems, who if he doesn't work out ends up costing the team NOTHING! What exactly is TT risking here??

Bobby...Robinson will be reinstated IF>>>IF>>>IF>>>he can stay clean. The risk has already been realized. MM himself said that this has caught the Packers off guard and that it is a worse case scenario with Robinson. Of course he went on and said he doesn't regret the move (you could almost see the strings moving when he said it).

The risk we already realized is this.....we could have had another free agent WR or even one of these young pups that TT just signed getting some valuable experience. If we stayed away from Robinson we SURELY would have signed another veteran wideout and we wouldn't be scrambling right now. I understand there was no monetary risk involved with this signing but I don't think you can say this signing and the suspension that follows didn't set us back

Fair enough, the risk is reduced playing time for Francies and Brewster. Francies was already on the PS and learning the play book in practice.

Considering the moves that TT has made thusfar, I don't think you can say we surely would have added another veteran WR. TT tends to fill these roster spots with young, inexperienced players all the time. It's likely that his plan all along was to promote Francies from the PS and sign Brewster if he was still available.

So the worst case here is that Francies didn't get playing time in games and Brewster wasn't signed until now. Both of these guys were with us throughout TC, so they aren't just coming off the street.

A few games of less playing time for our 3rd and 4th rookie WRs is worth it for a chance to get a probowl WR. Even if we won't get him permanently until next year. You are correct that Robinson could screw himself again during his suspension, but in the end we only lost a few games of experience for these rookies WRs.

Once again, there are plenty of things to complain about that TT has screwed up. I'm still unconvinced that signing Robinson was one of those mistakes though. This is coming from one of the guys who has complained about the several crappy FA moves that TT has made thusfar.

 

[DePack]

I hear ya, but I can't figure TT out yet. So inconsistent. Wants quality people then brings in a guy that embarassed the vikings (and believe me that is hard to do). Building with young guys, then signs Woodson. I'm not talking about whether the moves are good or not, but which direction is this team going?

To me the signing of Robinson was just another curious move. Hopefully he stays clean for a year and we get a bargain, but sometimes these guys are never heard from again. I DO feel bad for Koren though. I think his agent, the Packers and the way the old NFL worked, got his hopes up for the remainder of the season.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I hear ya, but I can't figure TT out yet. So inconsistent. Wants quality people then brings in a guy that embarassed the vikings (and believe me that is hard to do). Building with young guys, then signs Woodson. I'm not talking about whether the moves are good or not, but which direction is this team going?

To me the signing of Robinson was just another curious move. Hopefully he stays clean for a year and we get a bargain, but sometimes these guys are never heard from again. I DO feel bad for Koren though. I think his agent, the Packers and the way the old NFL worked, got his hopes up for the remainder of the season.

I know what you mean. I think some of the moves he makes have several meanings. Woodson was brought in to help improve the defense, but also to sell tickets for this season. His big contract is front loaded, so it will be easy to cut him down the road.

Last year he brought in Klemm, O'Dwyer, Freeman and Little to fill in for Rivera, Wahle and Sharper. Those moves obviously didn't work out, but didn't cost us much.

So basically it appears that he's willing to give bargain basement FAs a chance if they don't cost us much. Woodson being the partial exception, maybe to help appease the fans. Otherwise he wants to bring in young players with potential who could develop into great finds.

This is all of course just speculation and I have no insider info, but it is what I am interpretting thusfar FWIW.

 

[longtimefan]

I wonder if the woodson deal had something to do with other people in the front office twisting Teds arm..Or was it Andrew Brandt telling Ted you HAVE to spend x amount of $$ NOw or it will be taken form the NFL..

not sure of the entire rule, but there is something you have to spend a MIN amount of the salary cap or your fined ?

 

[warhawk]

Young players make mistakes and lack the experience to win games, TT plan is going cheap and bringing in young talent, which is good if you have a core group of experienced players, which we do not.

So you are saying that Favre, Henderson, Bubba, DD----our off and def---tackles, barnett, and harris are not a good group of players??

If I count right 5 starters on offense and 4 starters on defense ..How many more do you want???

9 out of 22, hmmm do I have to say more?

And who exactly are you blaming for this in the first place? Is it TT's fault this team lacked a quality core group of players AND youth as well when he got here?

I have asked this question many times. How could we end up with a weak core of experienced players, no young and upcoming talent, and, no money which is where we were going into '05.

How many more positions could have been filled with expensive core players this season? Not many. And then we are left with no young guys coming up and other guys getting older and no cash to replace them.

From what I see TT has tried to do as much of both as he could. He retained Kampy, Green, Woodson, Pickett, etc. thru FA and brought in a bunch of young, talented players as well.

We have been replaced in the North by the Bears and who are the players that represent the core of that team? The guys they DRAFTED in '03 and '04, that's who.

Unless Tillman, Grossman, Briggs, Scott, Oqunleye, Vasher, Harris, Berriman, and, Hillenmeyer who we let go after drafting in '03 aren't considered core members of that team.

All during a time we were bringing in zilch.

I, for one, am very glad to see us going back to the draft as a means of building a solid team. Yes, the inexperience will affect the outcomes in the short term. But as the Bears have shown this will pay dividends in the end.

This youth movement of young guys having to start now would not be nearly as prolific had previous management not fallen asleep in '03 and '04 nor would our talent level compared to our competitors fallen that significantly.

 

[longtimefan]

Nicely said war

 

[Pack93z]

This illustrates my point exactly, we have all bought into the fact the only way to rebuild is bringing in rookies or young players and has left us will no balance of experience to help us through this time.

Young players make mistakes and lack the experience to win games, TT plan is going cheap and bringing in young talent, which is good if you have a core group of experienced players, which we do not.

Sherman owns some of that responsibility but dont overlook that TT has alot to do with that as well. Ron Wolf had a very bear cupboard when he came, but did he take the young player approach to rebuilding? No. Yes free agency has morped over the years, but it was still there then.

All I am trying to say and really not trying to bash along the way is that IMO, I see lots of tough days ahead if things dont change soon. Hopefully I am wrong

Read all of my post please before blasting me, Sherman owes a lions share, but look at this past offseason and the money we had to spend?

They invested almost 10 million this season into Woodson just so we could meet the mininum cap number, please tell me that Ty Law wouldnt have helped us with the front loaded contract that he got from KC?

We couldnt have signed a veteran guard or two that wouldnt miss an assigment at the end of the Rams game because we have 3 inexperienced interior lineman?

Robinson signing was fine if we had a little more depth at WR than we do, it was a gamble and so is keeping oft hurt Fergie on the roster.

Please explain to me how the 4 TE experiment has done us any good this year? David Martin is a clinger on the roster...

We are going to a gun fight with a bunch a pocket knifes at this point, rebuilding or not.

I love the Packers to death and have been a fan for years, plugging holes with rookies for 2 straight years is getting old and the trend doesnt appear to be changing.

Is it really too much to ask for a little balance on the roster?

Another point brought up a couple of times, Robinson went to the probowl as a returner not as a WR.

 

[longtimefan]

This illustrates my point exactly, we have all bought into the fact the only way to rebuild is bringing in rookies or young players and has left us will no balance of experience to help us through this time.

Young players make mistakes and lack the experience to win games, TT plan is going cheap and bringing in young talent, which is good if you have a core group of experienced players, which we do not.

Sherman owns some of that responsibility but dont overlook that TT has alot to do with that as well. Ron Wolf had a very bear cupboard when he came, but did he take the young player approach to rebuilding? No. Yes free agency has morped over the years, but it was still there then.

All I am trying to say and really not trying to bash along the way is that IMO, I see lots of tough days ahead if things dont change soon. Hopefully I am wrong

Read all of my post please before blasting me, Sherman owes a lions share, but look at this past offseason and the money we had to spend?

They invested almost 10 million this season into Woodson just so we could meet the mininum cap number, please tell me that Ty Law wouldnt have helped us with the front loaded contract that he got from KC?

We couldnt have signed a veteran guard or two that wouldnt miss an assigment at the end of the Rams game because we have 3 inexperienced interior lineman?
Robinson signing was fine if we had a little more depth at WR than we do, it was a gamble and so is keeping oft hurt Fergie on the roster.

Please explain to me how the 4 TE experiment has done us any good this year? David Martin is a clinger on the roster...

We are going to a gun fight with a bunch a pocket knifes at this point, rebuilding or not.

I love the Packers to death and have been a fan for years, plugging holes with rookies for 2 straight years is getting old and the trend doesnt appear to be changing.

Is it really too much to ask for a little balance on the roster?

Another point brought up a couple of times, Robinson went to the probowl as a returner not as a WR.

Interesting to say the least............

A probowler is a probowler, and was used at the spot when he was playing in GB..


You are aware it was not one of the 3 inexperienced lineman that caused Brett to fumble vs the Rams right.. It was Tauscher..

All day, Little had been coming off the ball like some anonymous free agent. On this play, he shot out of his stance and raced Tauscher to the breaking point.

Tauscher, a master at recovery, wasn't beaten badly. But Favre, who fielded the snap at the 16, now was in Little's sights as he set up at the 19.

Tauscher had decent leverage and a generous portion of his 315-pound torso pressed on the 263-pound Little, but the end's big charge paid off. With the ball belt-high in Favre's grasp, Little flicked out his right hand and found the pass rusher's Holy Grail.

Tauscher screw up source

Not to mention Wells has been a starter for a while now, going back to the 2004 season..


so what your saying is completely wrong IMO..it is only 2 inexperienced lineman, not 3, and it was not one of those that caused the fumble, so a "veteran lineman" would not have helped since Tauch is one of those...

 

[Pack93z]

From the JSonline Moll article, and from what I could see he missed the assignment.

Along the way, he has had some extreme ups and downs.

On opening day, Moll was responsible for 2½ of the Packers' eight "bad" runs working against defensive tackle Tommie Harris and the rest of Chicago's vaunted defense. He also was late off the ball and executed poorly against defensive tackle Ian Scott, ruining a critical fourth-and-1 sneak by Brett Favre.

Two weeks later, Moll went nose to nose on 27 snaps against Detroit Lions behemoth Shaun Rogers and did more than just live to tell about it. Rogers wasn't much of a factor and Moll deserved his share of the credit.

Ten days ago, Moll came off the bench at halftime for an injured Spitz against St. Louis and was OK until the critical moment. That's when he failed to react properly on a stunt, which led to Favre's game-losing fumble.

Nevermind, I am done with this silly debate... All is great in Packerland, I am going back to become a TT sheeple and not question his decisions.

Either way, GO PACK GO.

 

[all about da packers]

Er people, just a quick reminder: You can report a post if you feel that it is degrading, insulting, against rules, etc.

 

[warhawk]

Plugging holes with rookies for two straight years? We used Collins who did a great job and Whittiker last year.

NINETEEN starters were those that MS had gone with in '04.

You can nit pick Moll to death but these young guys have done far more than anyone expected to this point and the future bodes far better with these guys than others we could have brought in.

There were a few decent, not great, guards we could have gone with. You think any of those might have missed a block or assignment? Geez.

You started out crashing TT's way of handling the loss of TWO wide receivers at the same time and end up broiling Moll for missing a block on Harris in the guys first game ever in the NFL? Gimme a break. Harris, if you haven't been watching, has made a heck of a lot more experienced guards look bad.

If ANYTHING, the risk of playing rooks on the offensive line is paying off. And a lot sooner than anyone anticipated.

We play the Phins this week. They have allowed TWENTY TWO sacks so far. Our line has given up seven. If you want to go whine about an offensive line jump over to their site.

 

[Pack93z]

For whatever reason it has gotten personal or offended you so, fine Warhawk, my point throughout this whole exchange is simply this,

TT has decided to rebuild this team with young talent and trying to build a nucleus from there, but during the process has given us little chance to win games now and banking on the future. We have little to no experienced depth anywhere on this team and thus even though the young players are EXCEEDING expectations (I agree) we have little chance of fielding a competitive team. We played rookies last year all over the place and paid the price with heavy losses, HOW many of them are still here?

Wanna bet that Francies and Martin arent here next year?

I happen to think that you cant build a team on rotisery style management that TT has displayed so far.

You point towards the Bears as an example, I in return offer you the New England as a counter... blend young with old to establish balance....

Sorry if I offend anyone with my viewpoint and GOOD DAY!

 

[packerfanfourever]

You do not offend me I do understand your frustrations. Last year we were in cap hell so we did not have much money to sign free agents, and the draft was so so.

This year we were in better shape (cap wise) so he did sign some free agents, like Woodson, Pickett, Kampmen and Green, and what I thought had a good to great draft.

As I see it we are building like the Bears and also adding FA like the Patriots so TT is blending young and old.

I myself am going to give it a year or two, I think in two years were going to be a force again in the north and in three years should make a nice run in the playoffs.

I am 43 years old and have seen the bad and good so waiting a couple of years will not be that bad for me.

 

[trippster]

Pack93, your points are well made. Some disagree...that's all.
Warhawk.....I nominate you voice of reason on this site. maybe Ryan can put that in your sig.


As for the debate between LT and Pack on Favre's sack.....from what I have read, you both are right.

Little beat tauscher...I heard Tauscher explain it.
Moll alos was involved. He got stood up by his guy and back up into Brett's pocket. Brett couldn't move up so Little ended up getting a hand on him.

All teams have rotissorie's going. you have to. It is a dynamic part of having a team. people are continually getting older and you are always looking for someone to replace them.

TT has brought in FA's to lead and set examples while filling holes til TT finds a suitable younger guy. On the line, we couldn't keep the guys we had and make the other moves we did. Long term prognosis? pretty good. Short term? painfull.

Many of you should remember our line in the early nineties.....guys like Winters, Reviera, Verba....had Brett running for his life. They got better by playing. I am extremely encouraged by what I have seen in the imiprovement of the offensive line from week 1 til now. If this rate of improvement continues, we will have an extremely solid line by next year, if not a tthe end of this year.

Patience is not a virtue of our youth, but we must be patient with our youth

 

[warhawk]

Pack93z,
It is not personal. I have stated before that I have a problem with placing blame without thinking things entirely thru.

Too blame Moll, or Taush for that matter, for what happened against the Rams in my mind is just wrong.

Our offensive line played a heck of a game that day. Had the other units played to this level we would have walked off that field an easy winner. That includes Brett, who played a horrible first half. They blew holes open and protected Favre very well for the most part.

We should be 3-2 and that's hard to deal with when wins are precious right now. finger pointing always begins when your 1-4. I, for one, won't put this on the "0" line or TT either. If I were going to point it would be at some of the vets on this club that have not done their job.

And that includes some of the FA's which is why I'm not to keen on people always wanting to go there for the answer to every problem.

 

[Anubis]

As for the NFL not reinstating Robinson, please site one instance that a player coming off a 1 year suspension was not allowed to be reinstated!

As I stated in my last post, Onterrio Smith (aka "The Whizzinator") was given a 1 year suspension by the NFL, and was subsequently denied reinstatement after the year was over.

GO PACK!!!

Robert C. Hedley

 

[millertime]

They guy is 6'4" and has been with the Pack since before half way thru last year. He is not a rookie that doesn't know the system. He made the All-Europe first team in '05.

all-europe? awesome...

 

[longtimefan]

For whatever reason it has gotten personal or offended you so, fine Warhawk, my point throughout this whole exchange is simply this,

TT has decided to rebuild this team with young talent and trying to build a nucleus from there, but during the process has given us little chance to win games now and banking on the future. We have little to no experienced depth anywhere on this team and thus even though the young players are EXCEEDING expectations (I agree) we have little chance of fielding a competitive team. We played rookies last year all over the place and paid the price with heavy losses, HOW many of them are still here?

Wanna bet that Francies and Martin arent here next year?

I happen to think that you cant build a team on rotisery style management that TT has displayed so far.

You point towards the Bears as an example, I in return offer you the New England as a counter... blend young with old to establish balance....

Sorry if I offend anyone with my viewpoint and GOOD DAY!

you didntn offend me either..Just a debate and a difference in opinions

 

[Bobby Roberts]

As for the NFL not reinstating Robinson, please site one instance that a player coming off a 1 year suspension was not allowed to be reinstated!

As I stated in my last post, Onterrio Smith (aka "The Whizzinator") was given a 1 year suspension by the NFL, and was subsequently denied reinstatement after the year was over.

GO PACK!!!

Robert C. Hedley

Thank you. I now understand the reference. I was unaware that the whizzinator was not reinstated.

It's neither here nor there though to the argument because, as I stated several times, GB really doesn't lose anything if Robinson isn't reinstated. The worst case is that he doesn't end up on the team, which is the case if TT never signed him. The best case is that he returns to his probowl form and becomes a great weapon for us on KRs and offense. I still fail to see how this is a bad situation for the Packers.

GO PACK GO!!!