Fire Matt LaFleur

[Magooch]

Good Work my friend! That really took some work I commend your assembly of information.
So I was wrong, It’s 100% more than I thought! That said he was originally portrayed as #32 ranking, which I kinda knew wasn’t correct either.
Let’s call Whelan in the bottom
20-25% area inside <20 which is still Lower than expected.
So Whelan is crushing the ball almost league best, his coverage unit is top 25%, but his inside <20 is relatively poor range.

Might be Whelan has a big leg, but he’s somewhat unrefined with a few more unnecessary Touchbacks (7) than expected instead of converting those to leaving our opponent deep <20. Interesting.

I think that's pretty much exactly it.
1. Whelan has a HUGE leg. He's tied for the longest overall yardage in the league per punt. His "long punt" in each game this season has been 65, 55, 63, 43, 56, 63, 56, 59, 61, 63, 72(!), 55, 57 yards. Distance is no issue.
2. He probably does put a few too many in the end zone, but to some extent I think this is the result of both A.) his leg power and B.) our field position
3. We just don't punt that much to begin with. As mentioned above we are 27th in total punt attempts.
4. By extension, Green Bay is the most effective team in the league at converting 3rd downs
5. We are also generally an above-average team when it comes to converting 4th downs
6. We are often not punting in "plus territory" with many of our punts coming from DEEP in our own territory. IMO this makes it so there is not always a super feasible window to down a punt inside the 20.

For example, in the first game against the Bears, we punted from our own 26, 34, 24, 33. That's an average position of GB29, so to get it inside the opponent 20 it needs to be at minimum a 51 yard punt (which is, incidentally, right at Whelan's average. Note also that the league average yards per punt is 47.0), or at maximum a 70 yard punt, and then needs to be downed or go out of bounds somewhere in this window.

What this suggests to me is that Whelan is either "outkicking his coverage" and our coverage units aren't getting onto the ball in time to down it in that window, or he needs to work a little bit on refining placement vs power. Overall I think Whelan is a great punter, and to be honest on the whole I am not super concerned about our punt *coverage* teams. But our punt return teams are totally disgusting

 

[Packers4ever]

I know we have been beaten to a pulp this season but when I saw the number of game starts missed by players indicates the Cardinals and Lions lead the league, it blew me away.

Wow Adam that's a very interesting "what if". Teams with truly elite and healthy defenses usually win SBs. The baseball analogy is that great pitching beats great hitting.

I think love is an excellent QB, and my opinion on him has changed since he was drafted. Can he take a team to a SB, as a leader? Not so sure about that.

I do think a guy like Parsons can carry an entire team. His work ethic is off the chart, he's still young for the position he plays, and his presence lifts the play of the 10 other guys on D. Eliminate injuries, and get solid play from the offense, and a SB is in reach.

But there is no need to consider replacing Love. First of all, that's damn hard to do. And Gluten has surrounded him with talented teammates, CB group notwithstanding.

Good QB , bad decisions still hunt him at the right time , like he has not learn from his obvious bad decisions in the past , he has not shown he is the leader we need for a SB
The bad thing is we are stuck with him for a while and nothing they can do about it , Packers are stuck with this guy

 

[milani]

It makes you wonder if MLF really cares about ST...

More coaches have to take them seriously. The Vikings blew a game in the final minute because they allowed a 57 yard kickoff return in the final minute to the Bears.

 

[Packers4ever]

I HOPE tgey move on from Lafluer!
He has git his ceiling. We need a coach who can motivate and coach! We NEED a proven offensive cood. who calls plays!

7 years is enough.....same thing every year...decent to good reg. record with little chance of winning a SB.

Agree, time is up , hopefully we can move on from MLF , it seems for him nothing is urgent , even fixing things that can be fix

 

[Firethorn1001]

It’s a fun thought experiment to think “what would our outlook be if we gave Willis somewhere between high end backup money to a Justin Fields deal (maybe 2 years/$30M), gave him the key to the car the next 2 years, and traded Love for whatever the market is (my guess is somewhere in the ballpark of three 1sts).

Would this work, would we find success? I have no doubt that JL is the better QB, but Willis really does seem to be the better fit for the type of offense that MLF wants to run.

If I'm a team in search of a head coach and a QB knowing Policy's thought process on lame duck coaches I would call the Packers and check in about a rare trade for MLF with thoughts on getting Willis on a FA deal a few months later. Not sure what teams would fit that. Dolphins? Tua benched and they probably don't want to move on from McDaniel since not a ton of candidates. They would probably gladly dump McDaniel for MLF. With less draft capital this year would the Packer's entertain that and possibly just look at elevating Hafley as a head coach in that type of scenario?

 

[milani]

Agree, time is up , hopefully we can move on from MLF , it seems for him nothing is urgent , even fixing things that can be fix

Looking at our history of coaching terminations it takes a disastrous season to precipitate a change. Ray Rhodes was canned by Wolf because of his inept leadership although Favre almost got him into the postseason. Mike Sherman had 5 good seasons with 3 division titles, but then the 2005 collapse along with cap issues, brought about his demise. MM had only 1 losing season until his disastrous 2018 season.
So unless MLF has a losing season we should not expect him to go anywhere involuntarily. And we can always harken back to the infamous Scooter MClean Now there was a terrible head coach.

 

[Magooch]

If I'm a team in search of a head coach and a QB knowing Policy's thought process on lame duck coaches I would call the Packers and check in about a rare trade for MLF with thoughts on getting Willis on a FA deal a few months later. Not sure what teams would fit that. Dolphins? Tua benched and they probably don't want to move on from McDaniel since not a ton of candidates. They would probably gladly dump McDaniel for MLF. With less draft capital this year would the Packer's entertain that and possibly just look at elevating Hafley as a head coach in that type of scenario?

Honestly I was seriously spitballing this thought around a little bit ago, though hadn't considered the Willis angle.

- We are short on draft capital
- Policy doesn't want a lame-duck coach but might not be convinced to offer a long-term extension to LaFleur
- LaFleur is still under contract for one more year, so we could theoretically get a decent return for him
- Hafley is continuing to receive head coaching buzz
- Last major noteworthy coaching trade was Sean Payton and a 3rd for a 1st and 2nd. Is it unreasonable to suggest we could get a first for LaFleur?

Maybe to phrase it differently, look at it like this kind of "trade proposal":

PACKERS GIVE:
Matt LaFleur HC/OC

PACKERS RECEIVE:
Jeff Hafley HC/DC
Mr. Unknown OC
2027 1st round pick

OR

PACKERS GIVE:
Jeff Hafley DC
1st round pick

PACKERS RECEIVE:
Matt LaFleur HC/OC
Mr. Unknown DC

In reality I feel like things never really work out quite so "cleanly" but it's an interesting thought exercise

 

[Scotland Yard]

As a few have pointed out, if Love was traded/cut, the Packers would be dealing with a $98M+ dead cap hit.

So while you can talk about the merits of "Willis over Love" as the Packer QB in 2026 and beyond, the discussion is dead in the water due to Love's dead cap hit.

You all make great points, and I agree that trading Love is not happening because of the dead cap.

What I find amazing is that dead cap is the main push back on this discussion. I expected a lot more "your crazy, Love is awesome!" type reactions. Maybe Love is not really considered all that highly superior to Willis by quite a few posters on these boards?

It baffles me why the Packers rushed to overpay Love when they could have franchised him once or twice. This organization under Murphy had a long history of overvalueing their own drafted players (Love, J. Alexander, Bahk's 3rd contract, Jenkins a guard, etc.) and it has crushed their ability to manage the cap or make moves.

Hopefully, that is over with Policy in charge. MLF is a great OC, but, his years long failures with ST's and end of game meltdowns cannot be ignored. Perhaps also move on from Gute who has made some good moves (McKinney, drafting Kraft, Tom, Williams, Wyatt, Cooper) but, has also done some really boneheaded things like making Nixon CB1, Hobbs, drafting & resigning Gary, drafting LVN at #13 round one (a backup at Iowa), Morgan, Musgrave, Q. Walker (no 5th yr. pickup says it all), Stokes, etc. with high draft picks, and overpaying Love. And worst of all trading multiple MVP Rodgers for a meaningless two spot move up in round one (which they used on a college backup LVN) and a couple of twos only. Pathetic, Rodgers is still playing and may even win another division title this year, which Love has yet to do.

Without Parsons this year, they would have likely finished in last place in the division this year. It feels like MLF & Gute knew that and traded two 1's plus Clark to save their jobs with a new sheriff in town.

 

[Magooch]

This is getting off on a bit of a tangent, but I'm curious if anyone's got any thoughts/insight on the current hierarchy/organizational structure.

As I understand it, right now, both LaFleur and Gute report directly to the president. Gute couldn't unilaterally make the decision to move on from LaFleur; only the president can make that move happen. (On paper, at least. I don't know how hands-on the president is, it's perfectly conceivable if Gute says "I want a new coach" that Policy might just rubber-stamp that move)

But I also wonder if there wouldn't be some value in a more "traditional" structure where the coach reports directly to the GM and the GM reports directly to the president....

Maybe I am off-base in all of that, but that was at least my impression of the current situation... I don't know if Gute would do any differently in that circumstance but food for thought.

 

[Pkrjones]

Overall I think Whelan is a great punter, and to be honest on the whole I am not super concerned about our punt *coverage* teams. But our punt return teams are totally disgusting

Couldn't care less about Whelan's "rank" inside the 20... the guy has completely flipped the field countless times and bailed out our sometimes-struggling offense and/or D.

 

[milani]

Couldn't care less about Whelan's "rank" inside the 20... the guy has completely flipped the field countless times and bailed out our sometimes-struggling offense and/or D.

When Bisacia came aboard the first priority was to find some who could even consistently catch the punt. That is how bad we were. A yard punt return was a bonus.

 

[Pkrjones]

MLF is a great OC, but, his years long failures with ST's and end of game meltdowns...

What about MLF's jet-sweeps & redzone ineptitude makes him a "great OC"? His play calling is stale & predictable. He's stretched himself so thin between HC, play calling, time out/challenge usage and time management that, even with Bisaccia as Asst HC, he isn't doing any of his tasks very well.

 

[Sanguine camper]

Honestly I was seriously spitballing this thought around a little bit ago, though hadn't considered the Willis angle.

- We are short on draft capital
- Policy doesn't want a lame-duck coach but might not be convinced to offer a long-term extension to LaFleur
- LaFleur is still under contract for one more year, so we could theoretically get a decent return for him
- Hafley is continuing to receive head coaching buzz
- Last major noteworthy coaching trade was Sean Payton and a 3rd for a 1st and 2nd. Is it unreasonable to suggest we could get a first for LaFleur?

Maybe to phrase it differently, look at it like this kind of "trade proposal":

PACKERS GIVE:
Matt LaFleur HC/OC

PACKERS RECEIVE:
Jeff Hafley HC/DC
Mr. Unknown OC
2027 1st round pick

OR

PACKERS GIVE:
Jeff Hafley DC
1st round pick

PACKERS RECEIVE:
Matt LaFleur HC/OC
Mr. Unknown DC

In reality I feel like things never really work out quite so "cleanly" but it's an interesting thought exercise

Why would any team give anything for a coach who hasn't won anything? MLF will get an OC position once he's wasted a few more of the Packers' seasons.

Gute went all in with the Parsons trade. With a few exceptions, doesn't look like that urgency translated to the rest of the franchise.

 

[Sanguine camper]

What about MLF's jet-sweeps & redzone ineptitude makes him a "great OC"? His play calling is stale & predictable. He's stretched himself so thin between HC, play calling, time out/challenge usage and time management that, even with Bisaccia as Asst HC, he isn't doing any of his tasks very well.

I think it's high time to move on from MLF but he does deserve credit for his roling in coaching Love and Willis. The QB situation could be a whole lot worse.

I agree his game and clock management skills are bad but I think his biggest problem is the passive, unfocused team culture.

 

[adambr2]

Why would any team give anything for a coach who hasn't won anything? MLF will get an OC position once he's wasted a few more of the Packers' seasons.

Gute went all in with the Parsons trade. With a few exceptions, doesn't look like that urgency translated to the rest of the franchise.

I’m not a big MLF guy, but there are definitely teams in this league (especially ones with young QBs) who would definitely give up draft capital for him.

We are looking for Super Bowls of course, but a lot of team are just looking to turn things around and establish a winning culture again first.

The New York Giants come to mind.

 

[milani]

I’m not a big MLF guy, but there are definitely teams in this league (especially ones with young QBs) who would definitely give up draft capital for him.

We are looking for Super Bowls of course, but a lot of team are just looking to turn things around and establish a winning culture again first.

The New York Giants come to mind.

You do not want to part with JL in his prime and start from scratch. That is nonsense. It would take a new guy 3-4 years to develop and what you have around him will not be there then. How long did it take Stafford to win a SB? He found a good team with a good coach. Why did it take Darnold so long to develop? He played on a Viking team with a great D and the best receiver in the game. Then he goes to a Seattle team that has everything he needs. Keep surrounding him with good players like the Packers did with Favre and Rodgers.

 

[gopkrs]

If we win the superbowl; man are things going to change around here.

 

[FavreRodgersLove]

.

 

[FavreRodgersLove]

Kinda have to agree that MLF has run his course. Three straight 7 seeds... the 7 seed that shouldn't even exist except for ownership greed. No bueno.

 

[adambr2]

You do not want to part with JL in his prime and start from scratch. That is nonsense. It would take a new guy 3-4 years to develop and what you have around him will not be there then. How long did it take Stafford to win a SB? He found a good team with a good coach. Why did it take Darnold so long to develop? He played on a Viking team with a great D and the best receiver in the game. Then he goes to a Seattle team that has everything he needs. Keep surrounding him with good players like the Packers did with Favre and Rodgers.

The post was about trading MLF.

 

[Half Empty]

If we win the superbowl; man are things going to change around here.

Of course, and many times it's been noted that our shorter leash for MLF would have been much longer with a Lombardi. What's your point?

 

[gopkrs]

Of course, and many times it's been noted that our shorter leash for MLF would have been much longer with a Lombardi. What's your point?

Just that people react like crazy.

 

[Sanguine camper]

Just that people react like crazy.

What's crazy about pointing out that MLF has had 7 seasons to get a talented team over the hump? After 7 years of failure, why would year 8 or 9 be rhe charm?

If you compare him to other successful coaches, he looks a lot more like another Marty Schottenheimer than somebody who can win a Super Bowl.

I would say it's more crazy to stick with somebody like that for sentimental reasons than to compare him to his peers.

The Lions, Bears and Vikings all made coaching changes since MLF was hired and all three division rivals hit on better coaches. That provides evidence that finding a better replacement is very doable.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Maybe he wasn't holding the clipboard correctly.

Upside down? Yeah that would be a cause for concern.

 

[milani]

What's crazy about pointing out that MLF has had 7 seasons to get a talented team over the hump? After 7 years of failure, why would year 8 or 9 be rhe charm?

If you compare him to other successful coaches, he looks a lot more like another Marty Schottenheimer than somebody who can win a Super Bowl.

I would say it's more crazy to stick with somebody like that for sentimental reasons than to compare him to his peers.

The Lions, Bears and Vikings all made coaching changes since MLF was hired and all three division rivals hit on better coaches. That provides evidence that finding a better replacement is very doable.

None of those teams have won a SB. The Bears have made more than one change. The Lions got to an NFC Championship and went home. The Vikings also got there but that was under Mike Zimmer.