Fire Matt LaFleur

[rmontro]

Since the thread topic is "Fire Matt LaFleur", how would people feel about Harbaugh as a replacement?

 

[OldSchool101]

Their decision after so many years. The fans appeared to be the instigators. Of course you run Henry with the backup QB. He did well against the Steelers. But Pittsburgh got burned by Henry the year before. So they beefed up their front in the offseason and played a lot of 5 down linemen. The Packers could not do that. If you fire the coach because a kicker misses one then a lot of coaches would be fired.

In some ways Baltimore parallels Green Bay in that they keep falling short of a SB and that’s with a HOF level QB for 10 straight seasons.

I can imagine if some GB fans are disgusted with Matt? they’d be similarly outraged by Harbaugh. What’s odd though is Harbaugh is the most successful Head Coach in Baltimore Ravens history. He’s Won the 2nd most playoff games in the NFL during his tenure (2008-2025). Yet he’s likely out because of an injury to Lamar and a missed FG. Neither of which he can directly control.

I’ll tell you what. I like Matt, but I wouldn’t mind having Harbaugh in Green Bay if contract negotiations sour. Probably too expensive for our tastes.

 

[milani]

In some ways Baltimore parallels Green Bay in that they keep falling short of a SB and that’s with a HOF level QB for 10 straight seasons.

I can imagine if some GB fans are disgusted with Matt? they’d be similarly outraged by Harbaugh. What’s odd though is Harbaugh is the most successful Head Coach in Baltimore Ravens history. He’s Won the 2nd most playoff games in the NFL during his tenure (2008-2025). Yet he’s likely out because of an injury to Lamar and a missed FG. Neither of which he can directly control.

I’ll tell you what. I like Matt, but I wouldn’t mind having Harbaugh in Green Bay if contract negotiations sour. Probably too expensive for our tastes.

Unlike the Packers the Ravens did have a heralded defense most of the Harbaugh years. Green Bay did not. And to Harbaugh's defense the Ravens were in the AFC. For years it was Brady and the Pats. Then it was Mahommes and the Chiefs. Throw in Peyton Manning for a while. In the NFC I do not recall any consistent dynasties in the last 20 years. There were certainly good teams but no super organization.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Baltimore Ravens fire head coach John Harbaugh

Change is inevitable, and the Ravens will have a new head coach after firing John Harbaugh.

ravenswire.usatoday.com

Harbaugh fired and he's basically did what MM and MLF did combined. Again, if MLF doesn't make a playoff run why should he remain coach?

So you're saying fire MLF and hire Harbaugh? Asking for Mike McCarthy.

 

[adambr2]

So you're saying fire MLF and hire Harbaugh? Asking for Mike McCarthy.

“Matt, we would like you back next season … as John Harbaugh’s offensive coordinator. ”

Never happen, but I’d love it on paper.

 

[milani]

So you're saying fire MLF and hire Harbaugh? Asking for Mike McCarthy.

I doubt highly that this happens .

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I think you put the leaders of Kraft and Parsons on both sides of the ball...SB was ours as much as anybody. Hugh loss. Wonder about next year...will they look like themselves.

Was going to say the same thing. Had Kraft and Parsons stayed healthy, this board and Packers fans are probably talking about how great of a season this was. How Gute hit a homerun with Parsons and how MLF incorporated Kraft into a potent offense.

2 injuries later, neither being Gute or MLF's fault, some are talking about how both should be fired.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

“Matt, we would like you back next season … as John Harbaugh’s offensive coordinator. ”

Never happen, but I’d love it on paper.

The problem is, if Harbaugh doesn't win a Super Bowl in his first 2 seasons, some Packer fans will be screaming to fire him.

 

[Sanguine camper]

Interesting. Off the cuff I said Gary is a slight under perform around $20mil value performance (these guys get paid)l that’s top 1/3 of the league area. . It’s almost exactly in line with their evaluated $18mil. So in their opinion he’s not performing to contract like I said. But he’s nowhere near bad level, which is what @Sanguine camper is suggesting. According to your own research? @Sanguine camper is suggesting we pull a player playing at $18mil level for a complete unknown. That’s the kind of assertion I’m arguing with. Never once said he’s over performing, but that’s what’s getting falsely spun. I don’t think we should bench Rashan I think that is a total overreaction.

I think it would be logical to give some of his snaps to Cox Jr. but pulling Rashan is not an intelligent move imo. Might even line up all 3 of LVN, Rashan and Cox Jr is my contention.

We both have. Especially guys like Caleb. However it’s known fact that across the league QB’s have a lower performance % scrambling than standing tall in the pocket. Saying pressures don’t matter when we won our first Chicago game because of a pressure is an outlandish level assertion.

It won’t be long. They’ll find a way to charge local broadcasts and they’ll roll the costs to consumers. I used to complain about nfl blackout on packages. That’s a drop in the bucket 10 years later to completely alienating average fan by means of exploitation.

I wouldn't go so far as to claim pressures never matter, its just that they're probably the worst stat in football of measuring success.

There are much better ways to evaluate pass rushers. I've listed a few and it wouldn't be surprising if there are other ways too. I doubt the smarter GM's are basing their pass rusher evaluations on pressures.

 

[Sanguine camper]

The problem is, if Harbaugh doesn't win a Super Bowl in his first 2 seasons, some Packer fans will be screaming to fire him.

Harbaugh was 3-6 in his last 6 playoff games and hasn't been able to get his team to the Super Bowl in the 8-year Lamar Jackson era.

Very similar to the MLF situation with the huge exception that Harbaugh won a Super Bowl in his 5th season. There comes a time when even a good coach wears out his welcome because he can't get his talented team to rise to the occasion. Harbaugh's resume can get him a new job but if he can't win with Henry and Lamar Jackson, do you as a GM want to try somebody new?

As a coach and even a QB, you're judged by what you do in the playoffs. Trends matter a lot. Great that he won it all 13 years ago but that's ancient history for GM's who need to win within the next 3 seasons.

 

[adambr2]

I don’t have a problem with the Ravens moving on from Harbaugh and I’m also not surprised that he has a lot of interest from others.

Just because a coach has a successful track record does not mean he is always going to be the best man for the job. Things do get stale. It’s not like Mike McCarthy just became incredibly stupid between 2010 and 2018, or that he was always just a dummy who lucked into a Super Bowl.

I don’t think the Eagles look stupid in hindsight for firing Andy Reid and the Chiefs obviously didn’t err by hiring him. Seems like it worked out just fine for both sides.

 

[OldSchool101]

Unlike the Packers the Ravens did have a heralded defense most of the Harbaugh years. Green Bay did not. And to Harbaugh's defense the Ravens were in the AFC. For years it was Brady and the Pats. Then it was Mahommes and the Chiefs. Throw in Peyton Manning for a while. In the NFC I do not recall any consistent dynasties in the last 20 years. There were certainly good teams but no super organization.

I agree. They sure did.
Surprisingly, While the NFC hasn’t had 1 team dominate, we’ve actually Won 8 of the last 17 Superbowls during Harbaugh’s tenure. So 8-9 is pretty even. Especially considering several Superbowls the AFC win on a last play or final drive. Just ask Marshawn Lynch! It could’ve easily flipped to 9-8 so the 2 conferences have been near dead even since 2008.

Oddly, The Ravens primary hurdle since Harbaugh has been the Steelers. 3 playoff losses to Pittsburgh alone.
Patriots 2 losses to them.
Ironically only 1 playoff game they stumbled to KC.

Baltimore has beat The Patriots and KC on 3 separate occasions in the playoffs, the exact same number they’ve faltered to them under John Harbaugh. Similar to The Packers, the Ravens have Won 1 Super Bowl since 2008, while similarly being in the thick of the playoffs most seasons.

Although you’re right on Brady, we of anyone should know what it’s like to get past Brady to get to a SuperBowl. When he transferred to Tampa my heart sunk because it was terrible timing as we were rising up. Brady led teams were a consistent, high level threat, similar to the feel of Mahomes

 

[SudsMcBucky]

Was going to say the same thing. Had Kraft and Parsons stayed healthy, this board and Packers fans are probably talking about how great of a season this was. How Gute hit a homerun with Parsons and how MLF incorporated Kraft into a potent offense.

2 injuries later, neither being Gute or MLF's fault, some are talking about how both should be fired.

Let's also not discount how huge the loss of Wyatt is.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Let's also not discount how huge the loss of Wyatt is.

Agree

As I pointed out a few times over this discussion, injuries happen and it is why teams have a lot of backups on the roster and practice squad. I am sure that most of the fan bases around the NFL might be singing the same tune of "had we not lost this guy or that guy, this season would have turned out differently."

So, as hard as it is to make injury excuses for a team not to make the playoffs or win a Super Bowl, they can be in my opinion, a legit REASON why a team doesn't do as well as they might have, if certain injuries didn't happen. The great/successful teams either have injury luck and/or some skilled backups where injuries happen.

I do have to laugh. The Packers are 1 of 14 teams in the playoffs and yes, they are only a #7 seed, but as I go through some of the posts on here, if I didn't know any better, I would have thought the Packers finished the season 1-16. For those ready to blow up the entire Packer organization, check your expectations, are they actually reasonable?

 

[oompatailgate]

Yeah I don’t see any point in placing blame on a loss that wasn’t relevant. It was absolutely the he equivalent of a preseason game.

"you are correct sir"

 

[oompatailgate]

I had this in a draft from about a week or two ago and forgot to post it....might as well now just for fun

Someone was asking (somewhat facetiously I think, but you know how it goes) how much of a chance we should give the "new guy" before firing him in the event that we move on from LaFleur.

So I thought it would be prudent to look back at all the other teams in the league over the last few years and see how long of a "chance" they are typically giving their coaches to reach a Super Bowl (not necessarily WIN it, just make it there...)

So, dating back to 2019 when we made Matt LaFleur our coach, here's how it looks for other teams. It's listed by how long a coach went without a Super Bowl appearance before being fired/released/resigned/etc. I tried to filter out interim coaches, and did note that some of these guys started their time with a given team prior to 2019, so that's noted as well. Coaches with an asterisk* are currently the coach of that team so that number could potentially stay the same or increase for some.

Arizona Cardinals
Kliff Kingsbury - 4 years without Super Bowl
Jonathan Gannon - 3 years

Atlanta Falcons
Dan Quinn - 6 years (2015-2020)
Raheem Morris - 1 year (interim)
Arthur Smith - 3 years
Raheem Morris - 1 year

Baltimore Ravens
John Harbaugh (2008) - won Super Bowl in 5th year

Buffalo Bills
Sean McDermott - 8 years without Super Bowl*

Carolina Panthers
Ron Rivera (2011-2019) - Super Bowl appearance in 5th year
Perry Fewell - 1 year
Matt Rhule - 3 years
Steve Wilks - 1 year
Frank ***** - 1 year
Chris Tabor - 1 year
Dave Canales - 2 years*

Chicago Bears
Matt Nagy - 4 years
Matt Eberflus - 3 years
Ben Johnson - 1 year*

Cincinnati Bengals
Zac Taylor - Super Bowl appearance in 3rd year

Cleveland Browns
Freddie Kitchens - 1 year
Kevin Stefanski - 6 years

Dallas Cowboys
Jason Garrett (2010-2019) - 10 years
Mike McCarthy - 5 years
Brian Schottenheimer - 1 year

Denver Broncos
Vic Fangio - 3 years
Nathaniel Hackett - 1 year
Sean Payton - 3 years*

Detroit Lions
Matt Patricia (2018) - 3 years
Dan Campbell - 5 years*

Green Bay Packers
Matt LaFleur - 7 years*

Houston Texans
Bill O'Brien (2014-2020) - 7 years
David Culley - 1 year
Lovie Smith - 1 year
DeMeco Ryans - 3 years*

Indianapolis Colts
Frank ***** (2018) - 5 years (fired midway through year 5)
Shane Steichen - 3 years*

Jacksonville Jaguars
Doug Marrone (2016) - 5 years
Urban Meyer - 1 year
Doug Pederson - 3 years
Liam Coen - 1 year*

Kansas City Chiefs
Andy Reid (2013) - won Super Bowl in 7th season with KC

Las Vegas Raiders
Jon Gruden (2018/Oakland) - 3/4 years (resigned 5 games into year 4)
Josh McDaniels - 2 years (fired 8 games into year 2)
Antonio Pierce - 1 year (plus 9 games as interim)
Pete Carroll - 1 year

Los Angeles Chargers
Anthony Lynn (2017) - 4 years
Brandon Staley - 3 years (fired after 14 games in year 3)
Jim Harbaugh - 2 years*

Los Angeles Rams
Sean McVay (2017) - Super Bowl appearance in year 2 (win in year 5)

Miami Dolphins
Brian Flores - 3 years
Mike McDaniel - 4 years*

Minnesota Vikings
Mike Zimmer (2014) - 8 years
Kevin O'Connell - 4 years*

New England Patriots
Bill Belichick (2000)- won Super Bowl in year 2
Jerod Mayo - 1 year
Mike Vrabel - 1 year*

New Orleans Saints
Sean Payton (2006) - won Super Bowl in year 4
Dennis Allen - 3 years (fired 9 games into year 3)
Kellen Moore - 1 year*

New York Giants
Pat Shurmur (2018) - 2 years
Joe Judge - 2 years
Brian Daboll - 4 years (fired 10 games into year 4)

New York Jets
Adam Gase - 2 years
Robert Saleh - 4 years (fired 5 games into year 4)
Aaron Glenn - 1 year*

Philadelphia Eagles
Doug Pederson (2016) - won Super Bowl in year 2
Nick Sirianni - won Super Bowl in year 4*

Pittsburgh Steelers
Mike Tomlin (2007) - won Super Bowl in year 2*

San Francisco 49ers
Kyle Shanahan - Super Bowl appearance in year 3

Seattle Seahawks
Pete Carroll (2010) - won Super Bowl in year 4
Mike McDonald - 2 years*

Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Bruce Arians - won Super Bowl in year 2
Todd Bowles - 4 years*

Tennessee Titans
Mike Vrabel (2018) - 6 years
Brian Callahan - 2 years (fired 6 games into year 2)

Washington Commanders
Ron Rivera - 4 years
Dan Quinn - 2 years

Of coaches who were hired (or already in their position) at the time LaFleur was hired, there have been 13 who have appeared in a Super Bowl. On average, these coaches appeared in a Super Bowl within 4 years.

Similarly, in that time, there have been ~64 "non-interim" head coaches who have failed to appear in a Super Bowl. On average, teams are giving them about 3 seasons before moving on.

Now of course I'll be the first to tell you this sort of "average" for "non-appearers" doesn't really tell us a ton. Some of these are just garbage franchises who churn thru coaches like socks. A team who is stringing together 3 or 4 win seasons and changing over coaches every 2 years brings the average down quick but is a very different situation than a team who is constantly pushing double digit wins and/or just about always making the playoffs. But, at the same time one could also say that coaches like Harbaugh, Tomlin, McDermott, Reid, etc are the exception to the rule that serves to drive UP the average, too. In any case, by my count, LaFleur's 7 years without a Super Bowl (of course, unless he makes it this year, as we hope) is tied for the 3rd-longest Super Bowl "appearance drought" of any coach over the last 7+ years who didn't get fired/let go/etc, for whatever that's worth.

Kliff Kingsbury....Didn't he made some darn good beer back in the day? (I know it's a stretch)

 

[OldSchool101]

Agree

Let's also not discount how huge the loss of Wyatt is.

Amen.
We now know that GB traded Clark to go after a leagues premier Pass Rusher. So from 2024 we are technically missing Clark and Wyatt. Now Wyatt’s injury is more recent but Our replacements for Clark and Wyatt have been a pair of Second string DT’s. Also throw in that Lukas Van Ness didn’t return gimpy until 12/14 and he didn’t return to normal snaps until Baltimore. Probably not an ideal game there with a pair of backup DT’s manning the Interior and Lukas not yet 100% and Gary (likely illness) being pulled after just 34 snaps and Quinton Bohanna debut as our primary depth piece.

While we don’t have Wyatt back, we do have Nazir back and we replaced Riley with a DT who’s very familiar with Green Bay in Jonathan Ford for depth at 6’6” X 340Lb. I also believe the lockerroom illness 2 weeks ago didn’t end with Nazir. It ran the ranks in December and I’m next to positive it impacted us.

Yet the best thing that could happen to us was being “found out” by Baltimore is that no team is going to allow 300+ rushing and then it not be a clear focus. While we will not see a team as dynamic as The Ravens again this year, The Steelers just gave us the recipe for stopping that type Run attack with heavy Box sets and they also didn’t wait until 15 plays in to figure it out like we did. We were unprepared and under manned and against the worst opponent possible.

While Hafley is our DC. This will ultimately fall on MLF if he goes light handed at DT into Chicago. Ben has made it clear he sees our weakness and plans to exploit it continually and I believe his arrogant statements. His fruit blossoms with his arrogance and his type always think they are infallible and thus it’s their pride that eventually becomes their self destructive stumbling block.

 

[milani]

Harbaugh was 3-6 in his last 6 playoff games and hasn't been able to get his team to the Super Bowl in the 8-year Lamar Jackson era.

Very similar to the MLF situation with the huge exception that Harbaugh won a Super Bowl in his 5th season. There comes a time when even a good coach wears out his welcome because he can't get his talented team to rise to the occasion. Harbaugh's resume can get him a new job but if he can't win with Henry and Lamar Jackson, do you as a GM want to try somebody new?

As a coach and even a QB, you're judged by what you do in the playoffs. Trends matter a lot. Great that he won it all 13 years ago but that's ancient history for GM's who need to win within the next 3 seasons.

I think the Ravens just want to begin a new era. Harbaugh is still a top coach and will be hired if he chooses.

 

[adambr2]

Amen.
We now know that GB traded Clark to go after a leagues premier Pass Rusher. So from 2024 we are technically missing Clark and Wyatt. Now Wyatt’s injury is more recent but Our replacements for Clark and Wyatt have been a pair of Second string DT’s. Also throw in that Lukas Van Ness didn’t return gimpy until 12/14 and he didn’t return to normal snaps until Baltimore. Probably not an ideal game there with a pair of backup DT’s manning the Interior and Lukas not yet 100% and Gary (likely illness) being pulled after just 34 snaps and Quinton Bohanna debut as our primary depth piece.

While we don’t have Wyatt back, we do have Nazir back and we replaced Riley with a DT who’s very familiar with Green Bay in Jonathan Ford for depth at 6’6” X 340Lb. I also believe the lockerroom illness 2 weeks ago didn’t end with Nazir. It ran the ranks in December and I’m next to positive it impacted us.

Yet the best thing that could happen to us was being “found out” by Baltimore is that no team is going to allow 300+ rushing and then it not be a clear focus. While we will not see a team as dynamic as The Ravens again this year, The Steelers just gave us the recipe for stopping that type Run attack with heavy Box sets and they also didn’t wait until 15 plays in to figure it out like we did. We were unprepared and under manned and against the worst opponent possible.

While Hafley is our DC. This will ultimately fall on MLF if he goes light handed at DT into Chicago. Ben has made it clear he sees our weakness and plans to exploit it continually and I believe his arrogant statements. His fruit blossoms with his arrogance and his type always think they are infallible and thus it’s their pride that eventually becomes their self destructive stumbling block.

I was baffled by our lack of loaded boxes against Baltimore. Henry is obviously amazing but it was just a horrific gameplan. The fronts we showed just screamed for easy 8-9 yard gains. It makes you want to pull your hair out even more when you consider the opposing QB was Tyler Huntley and the obvious plan was to load the boxes and force him to beat us.

I’m trying to rationalize that Hafley and Lafleur are some secret geniuses who willingly conceded the division in return for not exposing their postseason defensive schemes, because that’s about the only way I can wrap my head around it.

 

[milani]

Amen.
We now know that GB traded Clark to go after a leagues premier Pass Rusher. So from 2024 we are technically missing Clark and Wyatt. Now Wyatt’s injury is more recent but Our replacements for Clark and Wyatt have been a pair of Second string DT’s. Also throw in that Lukas Van Ness didn’t return gimpy until 12/14 and he didn’t return to normal snaps until Baltimore. Probably not an ideal game there with a pair of backup DT’s manning the Interior and Lukas not yet 100% and Gary (likely illness) being pulled after just 34 snaps and Quinton Bohanna debut as our primary depth piece.

While we don’t have Wyatt back, we do have Nazir back and we replaced Riley with a DT who’s very familiar with Green Bay in Jonathan Ford for depth at 6’6” X 340Lb. I also believe the lockerroom illness 2 weeks ago didn’t end with Nazir. It ran the ranks in December and I’m next to positive it impacted us.

Yet the best thing that could happen to us was being “found out” by Baltimore is that no team is going to allow 300+ rushing and then it not be a clear focus. While we will not see a team as dynamic as The Ravens again this year, The Steelers just gave us the recipe for stopping that type Run attack with heavy Box sets and they also didn’t wait until 15 plays in to figure it out like we did. We were unprepared and under manned and against the worst opponent possible.

While Hafley is our DC. This will ultimately fall on MLF if he goes light handed at DT into Chicago. Ben has made it clear he sees our weakness and plans to exploit it continually and I believe his arrogant statements. His fruit blossoms with his arrogance and his type always think they are infallible and thus it’s their pride that eventually becomes their self destructive stumbling block.

Being

I was baffled by our lack of loaded boxes against Baltimore. Henry is obviously amazing but it was just a horrific gameplan. The fronts we showed just screamed for easy 8-9 yard gains. It makes you want to pull your hair out even more when you consider the opposing QB was Tyler Huntley and the obvious plan was to load the boxes and force him to beat us.

I’m trying to rationalize that Hafley and Lafleur are some secret geniuses who willingly conceded the division in return for not exposing their postseason defensive schemes, because that’s about the only way I can wrap my head around it.

We did not have enough to load up. While we were busy grabbing Parsons the Steelers were filling their defense with big bodies for the specifi purpose of stopping Henry. They play the Ravens twice a year. We play them once in a blue moon. In their last meeting against the Ravens in 2024 they got torched on the ground like us. They learned, added Rodgers, and beat them twice this season.

 

[mradtke66]

I was baffled by our lack of loaded boxes against Baltimore. Henry is obviously amazing but it was just a horrific gameplan. The fronts we showed just screamed for easy 8-9 yard gains. It makes you want to pull your hair out even more when you consider the opposing QB was Tyler Huntley and the obvious plan was to load the boxes and force him to beat us.

We tried some very heavy boxes with 3 DTs and 2 DEs on several downs. We covered their three interior players and they were still able to run on us by changing the play calls. Having the tackles downblock and a short pull with the guard still created lanes. Every thing has a counter and they countered our heavy fronts perfectly.

I really think the roster was depleted by the flu (or whatever it was) more than was admitted.

 

[rmontro]

Unlike the Packers the Ravens did have a heralded defense most of the Harbaugh years. Green Bay did not. And to Harbaugh's defense the Ravens were in the AFC. For years it was Brady and the Pats. Then it was Mahommes and the Chiefs. Throw in Peyton Manning for a while. In the NFC I do not recall any consistent dynasties in the last 20 years. There were certainly good teams but no super organization.

That just makes it all the more aggravating that we weren't able to break through since the 2010 season. Over ten years of Aaron Rodgers while other teams came and went. But there was always one team ahead of us.

 

[milani]

We tried some very heavy boxes with 3 DTs and 2 DEs on several downs. We covered their three interior players and they were still able to run on us by changing the play calls. Having the tackles downblock and a short pull with the guard still created lanes. Every thing has a counter and they countered our heavy fronts perfectly.

I really think the roster was depleted by the flu (or whatever it was) more than was admitted.

Our heavies are not good enough and not heavy enough.

 

[mradtke66]

Our heavies are not good enough and not heavy enough.

Good enough, sure. Heavy enough, I doubt. But as deep as we had to go to find healthy DTs, one or two of them could have been on the lighter side.

 

[Poppa San]

I think you put the leaders of Kraft and Parsons on both sides of the ball.

Both were in the games vs Cleveland and Dallas.